Thread to Watch: US needs Arab dictators

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Wed Mar-02-11 12:49 PM
Original message
If the West (US) wants to "control" the Middle East with dictators, maybe it should let Gaddafi win.
   
I'm playing devil's advocate here, but if Gaddafi can reestablish absolute control of Libya using military might, that might be good for the flow of oil to the West. (Not good for the Libyan people or democracy or freedom or anything else, just for the flow of oil to the West.)

Staying out of the conflict could help Gaddafi win this struggle. That would send a powerful message to Saudi Arabia and other oil-producing countries in the area that using tanks and planes on civilians will be criticized by the West, but in the end they will see the "wisdom" of continued dictatorial control of the oil flow and will not intervene directly. (They get to seem "non-imperialistic" and supportive of freedom - at least verbally - yet they regain the sure flow of oil that kings and dictators have traditionally assured.)

Intervention in any form would certainly be dangerous and risky, anyway. I could see the case that some in the West would prefer to let revolutions in oil-producing countries fail. Democracies in these countries may seem to some to be less reliable sources of oil than the traditional rulers have been.

The best resolution would be for the people to defeat Gaddafi with minimal, if any, outside help. That is still possible, maybe even still likely - but it is not a certainty. If Gaddafi is able to turn the tide that has been sweeping against him and make a military comeback, we would face interesting choices.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x538952

Is this a clever mole?

This post plays on the liberal mania of claiming the US needs dictators like Mubarak so as to advance the notion the US is a force for global greed and evil. During the Egyptian kerfluffle we heard nothing but condemnation for the US for Mubarak having been allied with--and ergo propped-up by--the US. It was as if Bush himself personally killed anyone who ever died of unnatural causes and we're pretty sure he killed those who did die of natural causes somehow, we're just not sure (I know, Mubarak predates Bush but DUmbass history only goes back to 2000).

But in practical terms this does just the opposite.

In the DUmbass' mania to hate the US he claims freedom is anathema to US foreign policy.

But what about that shining star of American Imperialism?

I've long answered that Saddam would have paid Bush to lift the oil embargo, the way he was paying the French and Russians. We could have had the oil and been paid handsomely by Saddam so long as he got to keep his power. That certainly would have been far easier and more profitable than faking an entire war. Now, in addition to that headache, we have a government  in place that says it expects us to live up to the SOFA they negotiated with Bush. Why, it's almost as if they can tell us what to do in their own country.

So I wonder if any DUmbasses will note this fact or will their anti-Americanism get the better of them and they will mindlessly pile-on?

[franksolich]

Didn't the pre-primitives bawl and bitch and moan and whine when Ronald Reagan tried to take out Khaddifi in 1986?

And how they want him to go?

What's changed since then, to make them want that?

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Didn't the pre-primitives bawl and bitch and moan and whine when Ronald Reagan tried to take out Khaddifi in 1986?

And how they want him to go?

What's changed since then, to make them want that?

Keep an eye peeled and you'll see posts claiming the US armed Qadaffi because we're supposedly the only nation on Earth that sells weapons.

[BlueStateSaint]

Keep an eye peeled and you'll see posts claiming the US armed Qadaffi because we're supposedly the only nation on Earth that sells weapons.

Even though all of the weapons are of (Soviet) Russian/Chinese/NoKo manufacture . . .

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Even though all of the weapons are of (Soviet) Russian/Chinese/NoKo manufacture . . .

Hush you!

[DumbAss Tanker]

It will be somewhat surprising if Obozo does anything beyond a show of force without the cover of a UN resolution, which would actually make some sense if he was making any moves to get one in place, but that does not seem to be the case.

[jukin]

We already have one in the white house.

[AllosaursRus]

Even though all of the weapons are of (Soviet) Russian/Chinese/NoKo manufacture . . .

Mubarak was sittin' on 2 billion dollars worth of weapons ObieOne gave him! Who do ya think is goin' to get control of those? It sure as hell isn't goin' to be any "pro American" group! The ****in' guy is a traitor! We should have walked in and taken control of our own weapons in order to protect our greatest Ally in the Middle East, Israel!

[BlueStateSaint]

Mubarak was sittin' on 2 billion dollars worth of weapons ObieOne gave him! Who do ya think is goin' to get control of those? It sure as hell isn't goin' to be any "pro American" group! The ****in' guy is a traitor! We should have walked in and taken control of our own weapons in order to protect our greatest Ally in the Middle East, Israel!

AR, I was commenting on Libyan weapons . . .

[AllosaursRus]

AR, I was commenting on Libyan weapons . . .

There's a difference? Once the Muslim Brotherhood takes control, we will be fighting against our technology, too!

My question is, why in the hell did ObieOne give Egypt our high grade weaponolgy when resurection was in the wind for the last coupla years?

[BlueStateSaint]

There's a difference? Once the Muslim Brotherhood takes control, we will be fighting against our technology, too!

My question is, why in the hell did ObieOne give Egypt our high grade weaponolgy when resurection was in the wind for the last coupla years?

Giving Egypt aid goes waaay back to the 1978 Camp David accords.  Yes, the Egyptians have M1A1s.  However, they really don't use them as much as they should to be as proficient with them as they should be, IIRC.  From what I've heard, they also don't maintain them as well as they should, either.  They couldn't match the IDF's maintenance schedules.

[AllosaursRus]

Giving Egypt aid goes waaay back to the 1978 Camp David accords.  Yes, the Egyptians have M1A1s.  However, they really don't use them as much as they should to be as proficient with them as they should be, IIRC.  From what I've heard, they also don't maintain them as well as they should, either.  They couldn't match the IDF's maintenance schedules.

I realize that, but usually it was our cast-offs. Not our main battle tanks or F15's! Since the M1A1's have rarely been used, I would suppose they're still in pretty good shape! How many Cobras were in that package?

Don't get me wrong, i doubt they have been trained to the extent we or the IDF is accustomed to, but still, why give them our top 'o the line technology?

[LC EFA]

Even though all of the weapons are of (Soviet) Russian/Chinese/NoKo manufacture . . .

Maybe in the heavy weapons department they're exclusively Combloc weapons, but the Euros, most notably the poms and eyeties have been selling them small arms and other military related products up until very recently to the tune of something like 300 million euros worth.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Maybe in the heavy weapons department they're exclusively Combloc weapons, but the Euros, most notably the poms and eyeties have been selling them small arms and other military related products up until very recently to the tune of something like 300 million euros worth.

Look. You guys are missing the point.

It doesn't matter who actually sold them the weapons. The important thing is the US is eeeeevil.</du>

[BlueStateSaint]

I realize that, but usually it was our cast-offs. Not our main battle tanks or F15's! Since the M1A1's have rarely been used, I would suppose they're still in pretty good shape! How many Cobras were in that package?

Don't get me wrong, i doubt they have been trained to the extent we or the IDF is accustomed to, but still, why give them our top 'o the line technology?

It was an inducement to keep them civil towards Israel.  DAT, help me out here--did Egypt get older M1A1s in storage, like the original ones that 3d ACR was issued way back in 1986, or did they get a license to build their own?  I had heard the latter, but wouldn't doubt the former.

AR, those M1A1s probably do not have the depleted uranium mesh in the ceramic armor.

[AllosaursRus]

It was an inducement to keep them civil towards Israel.  DAT, help me out here--did Egypt get older M1A1s in storage, like the original ones that 3d ACR was issued way back in 1986, or did they get a license to build their own?  I had heard the latter, but wouldn't doubt the former.

AR, those M1A1s probably do not have the depleted uranium mesh in the ceramic armor.

Lord, I hope not, or Obiewan is even DUmber than I thought!

[DumbAss Tanker]

It was an inducement to keep them civil towards Israel.  DAT, help me out here--did Egypt get older M1A1s in storage, like the original ones that 3d ACR was issued way back in 1986, or did they get a license to build their own?  I had heard the latter, but wouldn't doubt the former.

AR, those M1A1s probably do not have the depleted uranium mesh in the ceramic armor.

I checked globalsecurity.org on that; of course most of their stuff is culled from open-source, or semi-open, US,  NATO, and defense industry pubs and therefore carries some particular freight of its own because of that, but according to them the Egyptian tanks are M1A1s (I.e. 120mm gun M1s), built under license but apparently 60% of the components supplied by the US - but they are quite vague about what the 60/40 split is, reading between the lines it appears the entire weapons suite is of US origin.  The Chobham laminate is a lot more important than the uranium mesh, which for my $.02 is a highly mixed blessing; still, as far as I know all M1 hull and turret armor we ever made included the laminate set.  Apparently back around 2000 a project was begun to look at upgrading the Egyptian M1A1s to M1A2s or at least convert future production to M1A2s, it's not clear what became of that in the meantime.  

[Randy]

Didn't the pre-primitives bawl and bitch and moan and whine when Ronald Reagan tried to take out Khaddifi in 1986?

And how they want him to go?

What's changed since then, to make them want that?

Their kind of muzzies are knocking at the gates so DU is all for them taking over. Being as they are all racist and anti semitic to the core at DU they want to see all these moderates deposed so the stark raving muslim moonbats can take over and destroy Israel and the US.