Author Topic: Jury Nullification  (Read 8173 times)

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Offline rich_t

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Jury Nullification
« on: April 08, 2008, 10:35:09 PM »
I would like to discuss this topic with some fellow conservatives.  I am new enough here that I think we can either agree or disagree without any bias caused by what we know or don't know of each other.

I'd like you all to answer the question as is, based on your current knowledge/pov, then peruse the link below and ask yourself the question again.

http://www.fija.org/


One quote from this site is: 

Quote
When you serve as a juror, you can veto bad laws ~ or good laws if those laws are misapplied in the case before you.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Chris_

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 10:54:49 PM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 10:56:06 PM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.


I was only surprised that it took you this long to reply to this thread. :-)

Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 11:07:13 PM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.


That is one vote.

What are you basing your opinion on?

Do you have any opinions on the site I linked to on the topic? 

If so would you care to discuss your opinions of the various aspects of jury nullification mentioned there?
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Chris_

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 11:25:15 PM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.


That is one vote.

What are you basing your opinion on?

Do you have any opinions on the site I linked to on the topic? 

If so would you care to discuss your opinions of the various aspects of jury nullification mentioned there?

I don't have to read anything.  As long as you have thinking human beings on the jury, then their prejudices are on point.

In the same way that "term limits" somehow makes people smarter in who they elect ("Stop me before I re-elect the incumbent!") so,does jury nullification presume the jury pool are silly ninnies who can be influenced by emotional arguments.

I don't buy the premise, so I don't need to review the argument.

I know many Americans are easily swayed by emotion (witness the hussein tidal wave), but I will not allow any subjective tool to undermine the "jury of peers" no matter how silly those peers are.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 11:26:58 PM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.


I was only surprised that it took you this long to reply to this thread. :-)

Anything that will compromise an honest debate here about it in your opinion?
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 11:34:16 PM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.


I was only surprised that it took you this long to reply to this thread. :-)

Anything that will compromise an honest debate here about it in your opinion?


it was an inside joke to FD.  not that I have any clue what you just said.


Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 11:39:07 PM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.


That is one vote.

What are you basing your opinion on?

Do you have any opinions on the site I linked to on the topic? 

If so would you care to discuss your opinions of the various aspects of jury nullification mentioned there?

I don't have to read anything.  As long as you have thinking human beings on the jury, then their prejudices are on point.

In the same way that "term limits" somehow makes people smarter in who they elect ("Stop me before I re-elect the incumbent!") so,does jury nullification presume the jury pool are silly ninnies who can be influenced by emotional arguments.

I don't buy the premise, so I don't need to review the argument.

I know many Americans are easily swayed by emotion (witness the hussein tidal wave), but I will not allow any subjective tool to undermine the "jury of peers" no matter how silly those peers are.

Why don't you get off your "I know it all" high horse and take a look at the link I posted.  It might not say what you presume it does.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 11:47:05 PM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.


That is one vote.

What are you basing your opinion on?

Do you have any opinions on the site I linked to on the topic? 

If so would you care to discuss your opinions of the various aspects of jury nullification mentioned there?

I don't have to read anything.  As long as you have thinking human beings on the jury, then their prejudices are on point.

In the same way that "term limits" somehow makes people smarter in who they elect ("Stop me before I re-elect the incumbent!") so,does jury nullification presume the jury pool are silly ninnies who can be influenced by emotional arguments.

I don't buy the premise, so I don't need to review the argument.

I know many Americans are easily swayed by emotion (witness the hussein tidal wave), but I will not allow any subjective tool to undermine the "jury of peers" no matter how silly those peers are.

Why don't you get off your "I know it all" high horse and take a look at the link I posted.  It might not say what you presume it does.


I took a good look at the link you provided and I still don't think freedumb2003 is off base.

I keep running the OJ Simpson jury through my mind.  Was that nullification or wanton disregard? 

Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 11:57:25 PM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.


That is one vote.

What are you basing your opinion on?

Do you have any opinions on the site I linked to on the topic? 

If so would you care to discuss your opinions of the various aspects of jury nullification mentioned there?

I don't have to read anything.  As long as you have thinking human beings on the jury, then their prejudices are on point.

In the same way that "term limits" somehow makes people smarter in who they elect ("Stop me before I re-elect the incumbent!") so,does jury nullification presume the jury pool are silly ninnies who can be influenced by emotional arguments.

I don't buy the premise, so I don't need to review the argument.

I know many Americans are easily swayed by emotion (witness the hussein tidal wave), but I will not allow any subjective tool to undermine the "jury of peers" no matter how silly those peers are.

Why don't you get off your "I know it all" high horse and take a look at the link I posted.  It might not say what you presume it does.


I took a good look at the link you provided and I still don't think freedumb2003 is off base.

I keep running the OJ Simpson jury through my mind.  Was that nullification or wanton disregard? 

Ok...  fair question.  I honestly don't know.  I think the DA ****ed up and after 9 months sitting in a jury box the jury was "burnt out".

But this topic wasn't intended to be about OJ or Blake. 

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 12:03:23 AM »
OK Lord Undies...

You claim to have looked....

What is your opinion of"

As recently as 1972, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
District of Columbia said that the jury has an "
unreviewable and irreversible power... to acquit in
disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial
judge...

US vs Dougherty, 473 F 2d 1113, 1139 (1972)

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2008, 12:09:31 AM »
There is no such thing. 

I hate to use a 90s-ism, but a Jury is what it is.  If they are collectively too stupid to fall for emotional appeals, well, that is what the USC calls for.

If you are "against" so-called Jury Nullification, then you are against elections or any other public duty which requires more than one person.


That is one vote.

What are you basing your opinion on?

Do you have any opinions on the site I linked to on the topic? 

If so would you care to discuss your opinions of the various aspects of jury nullification mentioned there?

I don't have to read anything.  As long as you have thinking human beings on the jury, then their prejudices are on point.

In the same way that "term limits" somehow makes people smarter in who they elect ("Stop me before I re-elect the incumbent!") so,does jury nullification presume the jury pool are silly ninnies who can be influenced by emotional arguments.

I don't buy the premise, so I don't need to review the argument.

I know many Americans are easily swayed by emotion (witness the hussein tidal wave), but I will not allow any subjective tool to undermine the "jury of peers" no matter how silly those peers are.

Why don't you get off your "I know it all" high horse and take a look at the link I posted.  It might not say what you presume it does.


I took a good look at the link you provided and I still don't think freedumb2003 is off base.

I keep running the OJ Simpson jury through my mind.  Was that nullification or wanton disregard? 

Ok...  fair question.  I honestly don't know.  I think the DA ****ed up and after 9 months sitting in a jury box the jury was "burnt out".

But this topic wasn't intended to be about OJ or Blake. 



I can appreciate your Cecil B. DeMille characteristics.  I too have started threads which I hoped would yield justification of my ideas.   I have always been disappointed.  It has been my experience that you cannot keep a thread so focused.  Nonetheless, Good Luck!

That being said, it was not my intention to divert the thread into a discussion of a famous trial.  My intent was to bring another point about your original point.  I regret it did not fall into your narrow vision of what this thread should be.  

I will bid this thread farewell.  

Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2008, 12:14:32 AM »
In fact, the power of jury nullification predates our
Constitution. In November of 1734, a printer named
John Peter Zenger was arrested for seditious libel
against his Majesty's government. At that time, a law of
the Colony of New York forbid any publication without
prior government approval. Freedom of the press was
not enjoyed by the early colonialists! Zenger, however,
defied this censorship and published articles strongly
critical of New York colonial rule.
When brought to trial in August of 1735, Zenger
admitted publishing the offending articles, but argued
that the truth of the facts stated justified their
publication. The judge instructed the jury that truth is
not justification for libel. Rather, truth makes the libel
more vicious, for public unrest is more likely to follow
true, rather than false claims of bad governance. And
since the defendant had admitted to the "fact" of
publication, only a question of "law" remained.
Then, as now, the judge said the "issue of law" was for
the court to determine, and he instructed the jury to find
the defendant guilty. It took only ten minutes for the
jury to disregard the judge's instructions on the law
and find Zenger NOT GUILTY.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2008, 12:20:22 AM »
Quote
I regret it did not fall into your narrow vision of what this thread should be. 

You don't have a clue as to what I wanted this thread to be.

I was looking for open and honest debate even if it disagreed with my own opinion.

But I won't blame you for not wanting to discuss issues that you have no interest in.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2008, 12:26:26 AM »
Quote
I regret it did not fall into your narrow vision of what this thread should be. 

You don't have a clue as to what I wanted this thread to be.

I was looking for open and honest debate even if it disagreed with my own opinion.

But I won't blame you for not wanting to discuss issues that you have no interest in.



I suppose my farewell was short.

Yes, I have a clue.  You are not some special case.  You can be quite predictable.

You may be surprised, if you would put down the megaphone for a moment, that you and I agree, if indeed you agree juries are free to decide as they conclude. 

Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2008, 12:33:15 AM »
Quote
I regret it did not fall into your narrow vision of what this thread should be. 

You don't have a clue as to what I wanted this thread to be.

I was looking for open and honest debate even if it disagreed with my own opinion.

But I won't blame you for not wanting to discuss issues that you have no interest in.



I suppose my farewell was short.

Yes, I have a clue.  You are not some special case.  You can be quite predictable.

You may be surprised, if you would put down the megaphone for a moment, that you and I agree, if indeed you agree juries are free to decide as they conclude. 

Ok.. we agree on that.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2008, 12:37:28 AM »
Quote
I regret it did not fall into your narrow vision of what this thread should be. 

You don't have a clue as to what I wanted this thread to be.

I was looking for open and honest debate even if it disagreed with my own opinion.

But I won't blame you for not wanting to discuss issues that you have no interest in.



I suppose my farewell was short.

Yes, I have a clue.  You are not some special case.  You can be quite predictable.

You may be surprised, if you would put down the megaphone for a moment, that you and I agree, if indeed you agree juries are free to decide as they conclude. 

Ok.. we agree on that.

May I assume your problem comes in when a judge overrides the jury?

Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2008, 12:40:44 AM »
Quote
I regret it did not fall into your narrow vision of what this thread should be. 

You don't have a clue as to what I wanted this thread to be.

I was looking for open and honest debate even if it disagreed with my own opinion.

But I won't blame you for not wanting to discuss issues that you have no interest in.



I suppose my farewell was short.

Yes, I have a clue.  You are not some special case.  You can be quite predictable.

You may be surprised, if you would put down the megaphone for a moment, that you and I agree, if indeed you agree juries are free to decide as they conclude. 

Ok.. we agree on that.

May I assume your problem comes in when a judge overrides the jury?

No.  That assumption is wrong.

http://fija.org/
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2008, 12:47:17 AM »
Quote
I regret it did not fall into your narrow vision of what this thread should be. 

You don't have a clue as to what I wanted this thread to be.

I was looking for open and honest debate even if it disagreed with my own opinion.

But I won't blame you for not wanting to discuss issues that you have no interest in.



I suppose my farewell was short.

Yes, I have a clue.  You are not some special case.  You can be quite predictable.

You may be surprised, if you would put down the megaphone for a moment, that you and I agree, if indeed you agree juries are free to decide as they conclude. 

Ok.. we agree on that.

May I assume your problem comes in when a judge overrides the jury?

No.  That assumption is wrong.

http://fija.org/

Ok, I have reviewed.  I now cannot understand your point. 

I said you were predictible.  You may be trying - on purpose - to prove me wrong. 

So, to bring this to a head, why not now present your point?  What is your point?  What do you want me to say?

Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2008, 12:54:16 AM »
You do realize I'm 87 years old.   :innocent:

I am tired and going to bed.

I'll see you tomorrow, God Willing.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2008, 01:03:00 AM »
Quote
I regret it did not fall into your narrow vision of what this thread should be. 

You don't have a clue as to what I wanted this thread to be.

I was looking for open and honest debate even if it disagreed with my own opinion.

But I won't blame you for not wanting to discuss issues that you have no interest in.



I suppose my farewell was short.

Yes, I have a clue.  You are not some special case.  You can be quite predictable.

You may be surprised, if you would put down the megaphone for a moment, that you and I agree, if indeed you agree juries are free to decide as they conclude. 

Ok.. we agree on that.

May I assume your problem comes in when a judge overrides the jury?

No.  That assumption is wrong.

http://fija.org/

Ok, I have reviewed.  I now cannot understand your point. 

I said you were predictible.  You may be trying - on purpose - to prove me wrong. 

So, to bring this to a head, why not now present your point?  What is your point?  What do you want me to say?

I am not interested in making you say a damn thing.

Speak what you want  to speak.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2008, 06:00:10 AM »
It is what it is.  There are situations where it applies the brake of common sense on a prosecution run amok.  There are also times when it acquits the plainly-guilty because of the prejudices of the jurors.  The site you gave shows it only in a positive light, a foolishly-simplistic view.  I found the 'Jury nullification as monkey-wrenching,' i.e. an activist tool, to be particularly foolhardy.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2008, 07:30:20 AM »
In fact, the power of jury nullification predates our
Constitution. In November of 1734, a printer named
John Peter Zenger was arrested for seditious libel
against his Majesty's government. At that time, a law of
the Colony of New York forbid any publication without
prior government approval. Freedom of the press was
not enjoyed by the early colonialists! Zenger, however,
defied this censorship and published articles strongly
critical of New York colonial rule.
When brought to trial in August of 1735, Zenger
admitted publishing the offending articles, but argued
that the truth of the facts stated justified their
publication. The judge instructed the jury that truth is
not justification for libel. Rather, truth makes the libel
more vicious, for public unrest is more likely to follow
true, rather than false claims of bad governance. And
since the defendant had admitted to the "fact" of
publication, only a question of "law" remained.
Then, as now, the judge said the "issue of law" was for
the court to determine, and he instructed the jury to find
the defendant guilty. It took only ten minutes for the
jury to disregard the judge's instructions on the law
and find Zenger NOT GUILTY.



....and it was the last time they were able to find twelve good men with commonsense for a jury. :-)
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2008, 07:32:22 AM »
Quote
I regret it did not fall into your narrow vision of what this thread should be. 

You don't have a clue as to what I wanted this thread to be.

I was looking for open and honest debate even if it disagreed with my own opinion.

But I won't blame you for not wanting to discuss issues that you have no interest in.



I suppose my farewell was short.

Yes, I have a clue.  You are not some special case.  You can be quite predictable.

You may be surprised, if you would put down the megaphone for a moment, that you and I agree, if indeed you agree juries are free to decide as they conclude. 

Ok.. we agree on that.

May I assume your problem comes in when a judge overrides the jury?

No.  That assumption is wrong.

http://fija.org/

that's a bit unresponsive.

that was actually an attempt to engage you in a discussion (he must have been bored), and you reflexively,
and, I must say, somewhat mindlessly, threw the same link at him that you have been posting again and again.

if you want to discuss substance, then discuss substance.  but posting the same link again and again and again
implies that you don't have the best handle on the subject at hand yourself .

this is just a little helpful advice.  no charge.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 02:01:31 PM by Wretched Excess »

Offline DixieBelle

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Re: Jury Nullification
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2008, 09:47:23 AM »
It is what it is.  There are situations where it applies the brake of common sense on a prosecution run amok.  There are also times when it acquits the plainly-guilty because of the prejudices of the jurors.  The site you gave shows it only in a positive light, a foolishly-simplistic view.  I found the 'Jury nullification as monkey-wrenching,' i.e. an activist tool, to be particularly foolhardy.
Excellent point. Things like this cut both ways.
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