Mrs. Alfred Packer wonders

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=236x85358

Oh my.

On the dawn of spring, Mrs. Alfred Packer sits in her kitchen down there in the woods of northeastern Oklahoma, contemplating the slowly-emerging green while hippyhubby Wild Bill is out in the shed, cussing up a storm while he wrestles with some metal, making it usable for building stills.

hippywife  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 10:35 AM
MRS. ALFRED PACKER
Original message

Have you ever wondered?

Am I the only odd person around here that wonders about food things that are so common? Like what were the hows/whys of the origin of eating butter on bread, for example.

Though we may never know, my guesses would be it began for several reasons. Most likely it began in poverty and was preceded by spreading what animal fat could be had on bread to both add much needed calories and to avert constipation in a diet that must mostly have consisted of rough breads, maybe as a side benefit?

I thought this would be a fun little game for us to play together, because I think we'd all come up with many answers to many of the common things we cook/eat and have for thousands of years, just from our common sense approach and experience in our kitchens, without Googling for answers.

Anyone else up to playing this little food brain game with me? Any ideas on the butter on bread thing, or what else have you wondered/thought about and how/why they came into existence and your possible answers?

yellerpup  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
 
1. I always wondered 'why' we have salt AND pepper on every table and in nearly every savory dish made. Now, salt is not such a mystery but I wondered why pepper is ubiquitous. I looked into it and the reason is simple. Pepper helps your body absorb the nutrients in all your other food. How ancient people figured this out, I don't know, but they have been trading salt and pepper for millenia.

hippywife  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 03:14 PM
MRS. ALFRED PACKER
Response to Reply #1

5. Ah!

I never knew that! Velly, velly interesting. I should eat more pepper than I do then. Bill eats it on just about everything but dessert, and I use it lots in cooking, but I can take it or leave it on the table, usually.

Tesha  (1000+ posts)      Sat Feb-12-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
 
9. Strong herbs and spices hide the taste of meat that isn't exactly "fresh".

Aha.

That's why hippyhubby Wild Bill likes pepper; a 180-pound carcass takes some time to consume, and it must inevitably get stale.

yellerpup  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
 
12. Yep. And chiles kill parasites in meat.

Other antiseptic foods: garlic, onion, cinnamon, thyme, oregano and more I'm sure. These are the ones I'm sure about.

Warpy  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 07:02 PM
THE DEFROCKED WARPED PRIMITIVE
Response to Reply #1

21. There was a more practical reason than that in Europe when it was first introduced. First, they claimed it was an aphrodisiac, pretty much what they claimed about any new substance they came across. Then they realized it would help disguise rotten meat when temperatures were too warm to use the great outdoors as a refrigerator/freezer.

Most spices started out as medicinal herbs and went into culinary practice because they helped the bland fare of the poor taste more interesting.

What I want to know is what kind of starvation drove the first person to eat a sea urchin. Or squid. Or oysters.

Inchworm  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
 
3. You are not alone

I have many food wonders each day

On the bread topic, I always wondered how come tortillas are common in, say, Mexico where in US our sanwiches use bread. I always forget to look this up, but I imagine it is just a yeast thing. Then... you have pita bread in middle east... soda bread in Ireland.. Oh! what about just plain crackers or matza.. I'll stop.. no wait! When did folks start collecting yeasts for breads like a sourdough starter, and where... ok, stopping for reals 

hippywife  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 03:17 PM
MRS. ALFRED PACKER
Response to Reply #3

7. I bet there are good answers to all of those "wonders", Inchman. Any theories of your own without researching them?

Inchworm  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
 
8. I think it has to do with the equator, beer, and technology

And I think yeast type breads started away from the equator because people like to drink. The basic materials seem very similar in all the breads, so I figure it has a lot to do with the process. Hec, it seems like I've seen documentaries where the woman of a village are making tortilla-like things on a hot rock (so it appeared). That makes me think technology was important.

yellerpup  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #3

11. It seems that flat breads seem to originate most often in hot countries whereas more temperate climates support more complex bread-making methods. Tortillas are just (lime-treated) corn and water, pita bread is whole-wheat and water. I have seen suppositions in print that yeast breads originated where a happy accident of the yeasty by-product of beer and wine-making (throw in a cave) came together in the same small area, perhaps abetted by a longer-than-anticipated absence of the bread maker.

Tesha  (1000+ posts)      Sat Feb-12-11 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
 
19. flat breads?
 
there's no hearth for keeping a house warm - where yeasty bread would be easy...

Warpy  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 09:56 PM
THE DEFROCKED WARPED PRIMITIVE
Response to Reply #22

27. There is an ancient form of "bread" that is still being made at Zuni Pueblo. A thin paste of ground corn and water is made, a large flat stone is heated in the fire and then the surface cleaned of ash. The baker just dips her hand in the cornmeal paste and swipes it along the hot stone. It bakes for about 30 seconds, at which time it separates naturally from the stone and can be picked up and stacked. It's sort of a cross between bread and a tortilla chip, but was probably what the earliest flat breads were like before circumstances had wheat paste sit long enough to be inoculated by wild yeasts and get bubbly, resulting in the first raised flatbreads.

Just about any grain or bean flour could be used in this process and the resulting bread, while nearly impossible to butter, can be used to mop up more liquid fare such as stew.

housewolf  (1000+ posts)        Sun Feb-13-11 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
 
28. I think it also has to do with a seveal things

One being whatever indigenous grains were naturally available in a particular area.

The second being the climate of the area - for instance, high gluten-forming wheat grows best in climates where there is a cold winter, whereas corn grows well in warmer climates

The third being the origin of the folks who settled an area - much of the east and northern parts of the US were settled by northern Europeans, so brought wheat bread making grains and techniques with them. The southwest and Mexico were settled largely by Spaniards who brought Southern European and Mediterranean grains and techniques with them, as well as incorporating more grains and technniques from the indigenous people than those who settled the east and the north.

Wheat, for instance, didn't come to North America until the early settlers and colonists brought it with them. Since there were no gluten-forming grains here until that time, the only bread available was flat-bread.

[GOBUCKS]

hippywife  (1000+ posts)        Sat Feb-12-11 10:35 AM
MRS. ALFRED PACKER
Original message
our common sense approach and experience in our kitchens, without Googling for answers.

Now that right there is funny! No DUmmy knows anything about anything without Google, and even then they immediately forget what they just read. Even the smartest DUmmy in all the known universe, the staggeringly brilliant, astonishingly fat DUmmy nadinbrzhzhzhzhski has no knowledge whatever, beyond the last Google page she read. You may wonder what DUmmies did before Google. I do, too.

[franksolich]

Now that right there is funny! No DUmmy knows anything about anything without Google, and even then they immediately forget what they just read. Even the smartest DUmmy in all the known universe, the staggeringly brilliant, astonishingly fat DUmmy nadinbrzhzhzhzhski has no knowledge whatever, beyond the last Google page she read. You may wonder what DUmmies did before Google. I do, too.

I hit a speed-bump with Mrs. Alfred Packer's allegation of "common sense."

The cooking-and-baking primitives, remember, have no sense of utility, thinking that one thing can be used for only one purpose, rather than a variety of purposes.

A cookie-sheet can be used only for making cookies, and a pizza-pan only for making pizza.

A pot for boiling peas can't be used for boiling corn; one has to have a separate pot for that.

A pancake griddle isn't used for making grilled-cheese sandwiches; one has to have a grilled-cheese sandwich-maker for that.

A bread-knife can't be used for cutting meat; one has to have a meat-cutting knife for that.

And so on and so forth; also remember one of the constant complaints of the cooking-and-baking primitives is their lack of storage space for all these implements and appliances.

[DumbAss Tanker]

On the dawn of spring, Mrs. Alfred Packer sits in her kitchen down there in the woods of northeastern Oklahoma, contemplating the slowly-emerging green while hippyhubby Wild Bill is out in the shed, cussing up a storm while he wrestles with some metal, making it usable for building stills.

Well damn, I didn't realize his meth lab was so close by.  At least I should still be safely out of the downwind pattern when it blows up and burns, though.

Butter on bread to fight constipation?  Really?  Pastoralism came thousands of years before domesticated cereal crops were raised, you dingbat, and constipation is the least of problems in primitive subsistence farming.   

[AllosaursRus]

Huh??????? Wholly smokes, I didn't realize we needed to reflect on our predecessors with this much scrutiny. I'm pretty sure every thing we use now is to make it taste better!

[JohnnyReb]

We ate home made butter on home made bisquits because God used to make real mothers.









Have I pissed anybody off?

[AllosaursRus]

We ate home made butter on home made bisquits because God used to make real mothers.

She still makes 'em by throwin a little bit of this with a little bit 'o that into a bowl!









Have I pissed anybody off?

I don't know how! I still get biscuits and sausage gravy damn near every Sunday for breakfast! Specially if my Mommy in law is cookin'!

[diesel driver]

I hit a speed-bump with Mrs. Alfred Packer's allegation of "common sense."

The cooking-and-baking primitives, remember, have no sense of utility, thinking that one thing can be used for only one purpose, rather than a variety of purposes.

A cookie-sheet can be used only for making cookies, and a pizza-pan only for making pizza.

A pot for boiling peas can't be used for boiling corn; one has to have a separate pot for that.

A pancake griddle isn't used for making grilled-cheese sandwiches; one has to have a grilled-cheese sandwich-maker for that.

A bread-knife can't be used for cutting meat; one has to have a meat-cutting knife for that.

And so on and so forth; also remember one of the constant complaints of the cooking-and-baking primitives is their lack of storage space for all these implements and appliances.

Amen to that. 

The same skillet the Boss uses to fry eggs in one day will be used for grilled cheese sandwiches the next, and baking cornbread in the day after that.

Butter-knives, on the other hand, can only be used on butter.  Sometimes, they have a hard time cutting that.

I wonder if you took a DUmmie camping, just how much junk they'd have to pack.  And how long before they starved to death.

[Karin]

Warpy:

the resulting bread, while nearly impossible to butter,

  What is so impossible about scraping some butter over the surface of anything? 

Mrs. Packer has too much time on her hands.  Time for Wild Bill to invite the family over for dinner again. 

[njpines]

meh . . . DUmmies can screw up boiling water 

[franksolich]

Mrs. Packer has too much time on her hands.  Time for Wild Bill to invite the family over for dinner again.

Well, the last time the Packer clan came over--this time for Korean cuisine--it wasn't very pleasant for her.

The gap-toothed sister-in-law, always critical of Mrs. Alfred Packer, held up a fork in front of Wild Bill's mother, screeching, "Look, mum, isn't she fancy people?--she even cleans in between the tines of forks.

"Isn't that just so, so, so.....uppity, cleaning in between the tines of forks?"

[AllosaursRus]

Well, the last time the Packer clan came over--this time for Korean cuisine--it wasn't very pleasant for her.

The gap-toothed sister-in-law, always critical of Mrs. Alfred Packer, held up a fork in front of Wild Bill's mother, screeching, "Look, mum, isn't she fancy people?--she even cleans in between the tines of forks.

"Isn't that just so, so, so.....uppity, cleaning in between the tines of forks?"

Now that's disgusting! My Daddy taught me every time you're in a restaurant to inspect the silverware. As they just shove them into a dishwasher as opposed to washing with a cloth, many times they aren't all that clean. Always though that to be good advice.

[DixieBelle]

Frank I think I missed it but where in OK is the Packer Clan? I ask because my hubby hails from N.E. OK.

[franksolich]

Frank I think I missed it but where in OK is the Packer Clan? I ask because my hubby hails from N.E. OK.

Out in the country somewhere near Tulsa; someplace with hills and trees and meadows, judging from photographs Mrs. Alfred Packer's posted on Skins's island.

And apparently where moonshine is still popular, as hippyhubby Wild Bill builds the stills.

[DixieBelle]

Ah! Sounds like Hubby's neck of the woods which is about an hour from Tulsa in Indian Country. Point me to her pictures if it's not too much trouble Sir?

[franksolich]

Ah! Sounds like Hubby's neck of the woods which is about an hour from Tulsa in Indian Country. Point me to her pictures if it's not too much trouble Sir?

Oh man.

It would take me almost forever to find them.

But the next time Mrs. Alfred Packer posts an outdoor photograph of her place, I'll alert you.

Fortunately, Mrs. Alfred Packer is a photography buff, so we might not have to wait long.

[GOBUCKS]

Oh man.

It would take me almost forever to find them.

But the next time Mrs. Alfred Packer posts an outdoor photograph of her place, I'll alert you.

Fortunately, Mrs. Alfred Packer is a photography buff, so we might not have to wait long.

Not too long ago, she posted a photo allegedly taken from her back door. It was of a scruffy, scrubby looking field with scattered saplings and briars, similar to what you'd expect of an abandoned landfill, or a reclaimed strip mine, good only for rabbit hunting.

And she likes to post photos of dishes she's allegedly cooked, which include glimpses of her grim Stalinist kitchen, with cracked linoleum and faded oilcloth. No doubt her kitchen would be far more attractive if Wild Bill allowed her to keep the money she extracts from the nursing home inmates by means of her homemade trinkets.

[DixieBelle]

Ooh thank you!!! I would LOVE to take a peek next time since I'm familiar with that neck of the woods.

[AllosaursRus]

Out in the country somewhere near Tulsa; someplace with hills and trees and meadows, judging from photographs Mrs. Alfred Packer's posted on Skins's island.

And apparently where moonshine is still popular, as hippyhubby Wild Bill builds the stills.

I worked in a pellet mill when I was a young lad in Enid. The place was crawlin' with Mennonites. So it could be where they're at! It was a whole different planet! I don't give a rusty what yer religion is, but they were a little "different".

[franksolich]

I worked in a pellet mill when I was a young lad in Enid. The place was crawlin' with Mennonites. So it could be where they're at! It was a whole different planet! I don't give a rusty what yer religion is, but they were a little "different".

Oh trust me, neither Mrs. Alfred Packer nor hippyhubby Wild Bill are Mennonites, or anything even remotely close.

There are some here who get on my case because they think Mrs. Alfred Packer is "nice," a sort of naive older woman, but there is nothing nice or innocent about Mrs. Alfred Packer; her range of hatreds runs the gamut from God to decent and civilized Oklahomans to people of eastern Asian derivation to unborn infants to George Bush, and back again.  Mrs. Alfred Packer hates more than she loves.

It's all very sad, because she after all came from a large, close, loving family, and became this.

Really, Mrs. Alfred Packer is nothing more than the bitter angry hate-filled defrocked warped primitive with a nicer face.