Author Topic: The case for electric vehicles  (Read 8667 times)

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Offline diesel driver

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2011, 04:54:40 AM »
The maintenance this asshat posts is downright bull shit! I haven't replaced a serpentine belt since I have owned "Toots'" Jeep, and that has been 5 years! I do an oil change twice a year, it comes no where close to the expense this liar is harpin'! No heater? Yeah, they're goin' to sell like hotcakes up here where the temp is rarely above 40° for over 4 months!

I guess he/her maintenance is based on treatin' your vehicle like shit and lettin' it go to hell!

I'm still drivin' an '85 Ford F350, a '96 cop car, a 93 Subaru legacy wagon, and a 2003 Grand Cherokee! My maintenance bill last year consists of one battery, plugs for the cop car, and oil changes for all. I may have $250 in it for all 4 vehicles!

Dishonest Green Wienied DUmbass!

I was wondering that myself.

I have an 80 Malibu, 88 F-250 Diesel, 02 Jeep Cherokee, 93 Buick Century, and my step-son has a 02 Trailblazer.

Between all of them, 18 oil changes, 3 sets of tires, 4 tune ups, 1 set of glow plugs, 2 serpentine belts, 5 transmission oil and filter changes, 3 transfer case oil changes, changed oil in 7 differentials, and rebuilt 1 transmission.  All about $2,000, INCLUDING synthetic oil.  Over half of that was the tires.

DUmbass couldn't change his finger from his ass to his mouth, much less oil in his car.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 05:06:00 AM by diesel driver »
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Offline diesel driver

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2011, 05:04:48 AM »
You want to see some DUmmie heads REALLY explode?  Explain the entire lack of transmission/generation infrastructure and capability to them, and then innocently suggest that the generation problem at least can be resolved by the construction of, oh, 30 or 40 new nuclear power plants on the East Coast.

Hilarity ensues.

Forget the nukes, construct 30-40 new COAL plants, and watch the reaction. 
Murphy's 3rd Law:  "You can't make anything 'idiot DUmmie proof'.  The world will just create a better idiot DUmmie."

Liberals are like Slinkys.  Basically useless, but they do bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs...
 
Global warming supporters believe that a few hundred million tons of CO2 has more control over our climate than a million mile in diameter, unshielded thermo-nuclear fusion reactor at the middle of the solar system.

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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2011, 05:09:37 AM »
You want to see some DUmmie heads REALLY explode?  Explain the entire lack of transmission/generation infrastructure and capability to them, and then innocently suggest that the generation problem at least can be resolved by the construction of, oh, 30 or 40 new nuclear power plants on the East Coast.

Hilarity ensues.

My new Representative, Chris Gibson (R-NY 20) has suggested that one be built in the district.  Not quite sure where, but somewhere on the banks of the Hudson River.  Thing is, there's the GE research nukes on the banks of the Mohawk River, not too far from where I sit as I type this, and the US Navy has the nuke training facility a few miles north of that.  I'm wondering if they could be harnessed to provide some sort of electricity to the grid . . .
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2011, 10:02:29 AM »
Two biggest downsides:

1.  A battery-pack made of difficult-to-recycle exotic metals and compounds that costs $10K-$16K to replace and is intended to last about four years worth of charging cycles, tops...and is not really designed to be replaced at all, at least without near-factory disassembly/reassembly capability.

2.  If you need heat or AC, the battery is getting sucked dry every minute you're in the car whether it's moving or not...as this winter's experience has shown, this is can be a serious, even life-threatening, drawback.

They actually have a lot to offer for a 10-15 mile commute in temperate weather, so you aren't going through one or more charging cycles every day, and if you are shameless about taking advantage of the economically-senseless Government underwriting of the purchase...at least as long as you have a real car or truck you can use for all the things you wouldn't use an electric car for.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2011, 10:49:10 AM »
What about people that live in apartments?  At most places, there's nowhere to plug in your electric vehicle.  It's one of the reasons I've chosen not to build one for myself right now.

Good luck getting to work when it's five degrees outside and your car's range is about fifteen miles.
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Offline Evil_Conservative

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2011, 12:32:47 PM »
What about people that live in apartments? 

A really really long extension cord?
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Offline Chris_

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2011, 12:43:50 PM »
A really really long extension cord?

i've got a 100 footer that would reach, but it's very inconvenient (not to mention unsafe).

I guess putting in an external 110-volt outlet wouldn't be too much of a hassle.  You'd just have to cut a hole through the brick on the outside of the building and wire in an outlet. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 12:54:07 PM by chris_ »
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Offline Texacon

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2011, 12:51:23 PM »
Why do the DUmmies hate the blind?

Quote
Because hybrids make virtually no noise at slower speeds when they run solely on electric power, blind people say they pose a hazard to those who rely on their ears to determine whether it's safe to cross the street or walk through a parking lot.

"I'm used to being able to get sound cues from my environment and negotiate accordingly. I hadn't imagined there was anything I really wouldn't be able to hear," said Deborah Kent Stein, chairwoman of the National Federation of the Blind's Committee on Automotive and Pedestrian Safety. "We did a test, and I discovered, to my great dismay, that I couldn't hear it."


Quote
The tests — admittedly unscientific — involved people standing in parking lots or on sidewalks who were asked to signal when they heard several different hybrid models drive by.

"People were making comments like, 'When are they going to start the test?' And it would turn out that the vehicle had already done two or three laps around the parking lot," Stein said.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21112810/

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Offline Doc

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2011, 01:22:36 PM »
This is a subject near and dear to my heart.......to answer the thread title question......there is NO case for electric vehicles in 97% of the individual vehicle purchase situations in the US.  

One of my best friends likes to "play" with this idea, and launched on a project several years ago.  A number of years in the past Ford built a limited run of experimental Ranger compact pickups that were totally electric (utilizing lead/acid battery packs strapped underneath).  After Ford engineers determined (the obvious) that the idea was impractical......(these Rangers had an optimum range of about 40 miles between charges under ideal conditions).......these pickups were sold to enthusiasts.

My friend decided to find and purchase TWO of these experimental Ford Rangers, and convert them from lead/acid to lithium battery packs in hopes of improving the range, and arriving at a practical short-haul utility vehicle.  His FIRST mistake was that he had to pay about $16,000 apiece for the Fords, and at least $2500 to have each of them transported to his western Pennsylvania home.

He then had to rent a forklift to remove the lead/acid battery assembly, and contract with a Chinese company (Owned by the PRCA) to design and build new batteries for this application.  The cost of the new batteries and transportation from China came to nearly $40,000 for the two trucks.

To digress....he IS rather wealthy, and retired (a physician), so he can afford to embark on such folly, but that is beside the point.

After the new battery packs were installed, all of the electronic controls and systems had to be redesigned, as well as a new charging system built for the new application.  All of the engineering work (minus his and my labor) came to another 10 grand.  We STILL don't have all of the "bugs" worked out of the software yet......minor stuff, like getting the electronic instrument panel to read the correct battery charge level, etc.

As of last September they are BOTH now sorta "on the road"........and so long as the outside temperature is between 45 and 80 degrees F, they demonstrate a maximum (unloaded) range of about 90 miles between charges. which is close to his goal of 100 miles.

NOW.......add a maximum GVW load in the bed of 500 pounds, two people, and the A/C on, and the range drops to only 25 miles, under optimal temperature conditions........essentially useless.......after an investment of nearly $100,000 (or 50 grand apiece).  It should be noted that redesign and engineering was free, as well as all the conversion and reprogramming labor (countless hours over four years).

So what's the bottom line?.......electric vehicles have been attempted since 1903, and in EVERY case  determined to be impractical in what we Americans consider "normal use".  A tiny fraction of vehicle owners in the US live close enough to work and shopping to ever use the concept on a practical basis, and that completely sets aside the occasional need for a one-way trip exceeding 100 miles, which is essentially the limit of range within the technology available today.

Today's politicians and environmentalists need to come to grips with the laws of physics......it simply requires "X" amount of energy to move a mass "Y" over a distance of "D", without replenishment of the energy source.  The energy required to move a mass over distance cannot be "repealed", or distorted by artificial means.

Next week, our president is going to announce that he proposes a "grant" of $7500 to every citizen who purchases such a vehicle, which is coming out of we the taxpayer's pockets, that is over and above the $7500 tax credit that is already in place.  

What is happening is that both the "Volt", and the "Leaf" are now available in dealer showrooms, and they are NOT exactly jumping off the lots.  The administration is seeing their objective of 300,000 electric vehicle sales per year going down in flames due to public apathy........and rightly so, because once the public sits across the desk from a car salesman and begins to understand the SEVERE limitations of such a vehicle they are taking the reasonable course.........and giving it a "pass".

doc
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 02:37:57 PM by TVDOC »

Offline TVDOC

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2011, 01:31:37 PM »
i've got a 100 footer that would reach, but it's very inconvenient (not to mention unsafe).

I guess putting in an external 110-volt outlet wouldn't be too much of a hassle.  You'd just have to cut a hole through the brick on the outside of the building and wire in an outlet. 

The problem with that idea is that in order to optimize charging time, 240 volts is required.  Charging with 120 volts will require 16 hours for a full charge with a "Leaf".........

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Offline Chris_

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2011, 01:54:36 PM »
Even a DIY 144-volt DC system would cost a minimum of $5000 with regular lead acid batteries and the motor, and that doesn't include the time it takes to build your own controllers, adapters, and mounting hardware.  Off-the-shelf parts?  You might as well double that $5k.

I can buy a lot of gas for $5,000 and happily drive wherever I please.
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Offline PatriotGame

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2011, 02:06:24 PM »
Do they auto-generate their own charges? Last time I took physics, that broke the 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics.


OOOOoooooohhh, you have to plug'em in. Hmm, Ok. Where does that energy come from?
Haven't you heard of the free electricity unicorn?





Neither have I...
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Offline TVDOC

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2011, 02:06:35 PM »
Even a DIY 144-volt DC system would cost a minimum of $5000 with regular lead acid batteries and the motor, and that doesn't include the time it takes to build your own controllers, adapters, and mounting hardware.  Off-the-shelf parts?  You might as well double that $5k.

I can buy a lot of gas for $5,000 and happily drive wherever I please.

Yeah.....I tried to convince my friend that he could buy a lifetime supply of gasoline at even 5 bucks a gallon for what he's invested........alas to no avail.

It DID keep him out of trouble for four years so far......... :-)

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2011, 02:59:35 PM »
Here's the basic problem with electric vehicles versus those powered by gasoline.......

One Gallon of 87  Octane gasoline = 116,090 BTU.
One kW of electrical energy (1,000 watts) = 3,413 BTU

Therefore:

One gallon of gasoline (if used at 100% efficiency) will produce 34.01 kW of electricity (34,010 Watts)

NOW........

Lithium batteries (the present "state of the art") are capable of storing 150 Watt/hours of electricity per kilogram of battery mass.

Therefore 226.7 kg (roughly 500 pounds) of Lithium batteries are required to deliver the same energy as a gallon of gasoline (for ONLY ONE HOUR), before a minimum 4-hour recharge cycle is required.  It should be noted that a gallon of gasoline weighs approximately 7 pounds.

Since....at the average gas pump, probably fifteen seconds is required to pump a gallon of gas into your tank, which is the most efficient form of powering a motor vehicle?

We can assume that the average motor vehicle uses gasoline at approximately 89% efficiency, We can further assume that the average electric vehicle reaches nowhere near 100% efficiency in its use of stored electrical energy (particularly since the vehicle doesn't only have to transport its own weight, plus that of its payload, but also nearly a half-ton of batteries).

I'll let you folks play with all of the various conclusions that can be drawn from the math above........

doc

« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 03:20:04 PM by TVDOC »

Offline NHSparky

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2011, 06:31:47 AM »
My new Representative, Chris Gibson (R-NY 20) has suggested that one be built in the district.  Not quite sure where, but somewhere on the banks of the Hudson River.  Thing is, there's the GE research nukes on the banks of the Mohawk River, not too far from where I sit as I type this, and the US Navy has the nuke training facility a few miles north of that.  I'm wondering if they could be harnessed to provide some sort of electricity to the grid . . .

Not really.  As far as the ones at Ballston Spa go, they're either shut down or were never intended to have electricity generated, nor were the GE research nukes.

Add to that the fact they're low power units and not very efficient ones at that (most commercial nukes convert about 35 percent of their thermal output to electricity, which is a very good number) and it won't happen.

Then again, most of the plants that were talked about a couple of years ago are on hold--STILL.  Only Vogtle 3 & 4 is currently being built.  Everything else is still in the planning/application stage.  FPL wanted to put another couple of nukes at Turkey Point but balked when the cost for two units estimates went from $8 Billion to over $20 Billion.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2011, 11:13:32 AM »
Haven't you heard of the free electricity unicorn?





Neither have I...

I think that whole thing is an abysmally-uninformed reference to regenerative braking.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2011, 02:29:20 PM »
Don't worry about a shortage of electricity. Copper thieves are going to steal the recharging cords as fast as people plug them in.
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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2011, 02:32:05 PM »
Haven't you heard of the free electricity unicorn?





Neither have I...

NO, but Caliph Barry claims that when he clacks his two brass balls  :lmao: together, he can generate about 500,000 volts.  Anybody who wants all the free 'lectricity they can use just has to line up bend over, and let him stick his plug in their socket.


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Offline Wineslob

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2011, 09:52:59 AM »
Say anything you want about electric cars, the moral superiority is priceless.





















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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2011, 10:36:34 AM »
Even a DIY 144-volt DC system would cost a minimum of $5000 with regular lead acid batteries and the motor, and that doesn't include the time it takes to build your own controllers, adapters, and mounting hardware.  Off-the-shelf parts?  You might as well double that $5k.

I can buy a lot of gas for $5,000 and happily drive wherever I please.

Yeah, I've been toying with doing a DIY electrification job on my old used-up Ranger at some point next year after I retire, purely a shits-and-grins deal since even owning a completely-amortized shell vehicle and doing the work.  Preliminary review puts the numbers at about $5K for 10-12 deep-cycle marine batteries, the motor, and supporting electronic shit and mechanicals to do it.  Kind of interesting as a project, not sure I want to pull the trigger on screwing with it, though.   
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2011, 10:49:35 AM »
Yeah, I've been toying with doing a DIY electrification job on my old used-up Ranger at some point next year after I retire, purely a shits-and-grins deal since even owning a completely-amortized shell vehicle and doing the work.  Preliminary review puts the numbers at about $5K for 10-12 deep-cycle marine batteries, the motor, and supporting electronic shit and mechanicals to do it.  Kind of interesting as a project, not sure I want to pull the trigger on screwing with it, though.   

Yeah, my son "dropped" off an '86 Nissan pick up in my yard about 5 years ago. Been thinkin' of doin' the same thing with it, just to use around here or maybe run down to the local convenience store once a week. I need to move hay and grain around once in a while and havin' to warm up the diesel for a few minutes work is a pain in the ass! Just not sure I want to invest that kind of money.

I have access to all kinds of large electric motors though, and might be able to adapt one of them. The electronics aren't much of a problem since I've been designing my own circuit boards for years. The only real expense is batteries.
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Offline jukin

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2011, 10:52:53 AM »
For almost a century the regressives and MSM (but I repeat myself) have been touting THE ELECTRIC CAR. It has taken that long to dumb down the American public so that a good percentage think that it is a good idea.

From the article I posted if you want to put in a level two charging system you need a 220VAC/80 Amp service.  This is almost all of a typical 220VAC/100 Amp residential service line. When I look up the NEC and NFPA codes that requires a minimum number 3 gauge wire TFFN. However, 2 gauge TFFN would probably be used and this wire is about 1/4 inch diameter of copper and overall about 3/8 inch in diameter. Not something that is easy to pull...or cheap. I'm out of current copper, power distribution, EMT, and labor pricing but my guess would be to run the lie to the garage would cost between $2500-$4000 depending on the run and that you have room on your circuit breaker panel.

There would be untold billions in replacing transmission lines and neighborhood step down transformers to handle the load for even 25% of the households having just a single EV.

The electric car is why stupid people should not be making laws.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 10:55:01 AM by jukin »
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2011, 11:11:55 AM »
Been thinkin' of doin' the same thing with it, just to use around here or maybe run down to the local convenience store once a week. I need to move hay and grain around once in a while and havin' to warm up the diesel for a few minutes work is a pain in the ass! Just not sure I want to invest that kind of money.

Yeah, that's more or less the kind of role I'd have for it it, the added delay of charging on a 120v circuit wouldn't be a big drawback since I wouldn't need it for sustained driving on a daily basis.
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2011, 11:40:50 AM »
Yeah, that's more or less the kind of role I'd have for it it, the added delay of charging on a 120v circuit wouldn't be a big drawback since I wouldn't need it for sustained driving on a daily basis.

I figure I'd put solar cells on the roof so it would basically be chargin' all the time when not in use. Otherwise, I just figure a trickle charger would be sufficient, no more than I'd use the thing.

They make adapter plates to hook up to the trannie, but I may have to make my own if I can get a surplus motor from LiteHouseInc to work. They've gota few dozen high amp motors from upgrading their equipment where they make their salad dressing. Gonna have to look at specs.

If ya wanna go lithium, here's a site that deals in surplus http://www.goldmine-elec.com/
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 11:47:18 AM by AllosaursRus »
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Re: The case for electric vehicles
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2011, 11:51:52 AM »
I never want to use an electric vehicle for anything but getting from where I hit the ball to where I'm going to hit it again.