"A tactic in arguing against pro-gun advocates"( Bragi)

[Tess Anderson]

link

A tactic I wouldn't recommend - you could get shot by the "pro-gun advocate":

Bragi  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jan-25-11 08:51 AM
Original message
A tactic in arguing against pro-gun advocates
 Edited on Tue Jan-25-11 09:13 AM by Bragi
I've only recently followed the debate at DU on guns, but something that occurs to me is that a good way to frame the discussion for people wanting to address the plague of guns in America is to move away (temporarily) from all the 2nd amendment and legal issues, and to just politely ask gun-toting gun advocates why they are so afraid of their neighbors?

The point is that most people are not so timid and fearful that they feel the need to carry lethal weapons, nor are they scared simply because they they can't shoot other people at malls, at work, in schools, whatever.

Most people get by in the community without the inordinate fear of others that is displayed by people who insist on carrying guns. So why are people who carry guns so afraid of others? And what can be done to help them overcome their fears?

I think that line of questioning takes the discussion to a new and more constructive level.

The initial reaction of your gun-packing neighbor or coworker to this question, of course, may well be apoplexy, confusion and anger at having their timidity exposed. However, if more people keep asking them that question, maybe they will come to realize that they too can live without inordinate fear, and aspire to living a normal, gun-free life, like most people in the community.
 

 

[Gratiot]

I wish I lived such a sheltered life, that it wasn't a concern.

[jukin]

We don't call them DUmbasses for nothing.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Pretty simple to answer, really:  I'm not, but some of the people a little farther away are ****ing meth-cookers, burglars, and God-damn cattle rustlers, and they have cars.

[TVDOC]

For these DUmmies who mostly live in urban cesspools, behind doors with multiple locks, barred windows, and buildings with security guards, it is ironic for them to equate "fear" with a concept as elemental as self-defense, and that a firearm is simply a tool......an extension of ones hand and arm.

Over the decades, I've lived and worked in some of these urban areas, and ALWAYS carried a sidearm, whether it was legal to do so there or not.........over this period, I never fired a round in anger, I HAVE, on three occasions, been required to simply "display" the presence of a firearm, and in all three instances this was all that was necessary to diffuse the situation.

I suspect that if any group were to be accused of irrational "fear", it would be those who simply cannot accept the idea that some of us value our lives and property enough to actually defend them if necessary........ DUmmies seem to place no real value on anything other than their agenda, an extension of the "victim" mentality......

doc

[Carl]

As soon as you declare how you have to "frame" something it means you are on the wrong side of the debate.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

The pro-gun/rights group--even at DU--is asked that insipid question every day.

Maybe Bragi considers Jared Loughner HER neighbor, but I don't consider him mine. He's an animal to be caged.

[NHSparky]

Dear Dummies, in the words of Heinlein, "An armed society is a polite society.  Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

[Ree]

I want to carry a gun coz of morons like Bragi.....I know at this time in my life I am a very easy target....

[AllosaursRus]

For these DUmmies who mostly live in urban cesspools, behind doors with multiple locks, barred windows, and buildings with security guards, it is ironic for them to equate "fear" with a concept as elemental as self-defense, and that a firearm is simply a tool......an extension of ones hand and arm.

Over the decades, I've lived and worked in some of these urban areas, and ALWAYS carried a sidearm, whether it was legal to do so there or not.........over this period, I never fired a round in anger, I HAVE, on three occasions, been required to simply "display" the presence of a firearm, and in all three instances this was all that was necessary to diffuse the situation.

I suspect that if any group were to be accused of irrational "fear", it would be those who simply cannot accept the idea that some of us value our lives and property enough to actually defend them if necessary........ DUmmies seem to place no real value on anything other than their agenda, an extension of the "victim" mentality......

doc

I agree completely! I have never fired a single shot in anger! In self defense. several times! But I didn't just visit urban blight, I had to pull some of those upstandin' citizens outa there, and they weren't exactly pleased they were goin'! I got the scars ta prove it!

I will never understand the logic of DUmmies who think if we outlaw guns, the criminals will just automatically hand theirs in and everything will be hunky dory! Ya ever watch COPS, DUmbass? Ya think the guns they find are legal? Ya think they got 'em from your local Army Surplus?

How 'bout any of those coroner type shows, where inoccent people end up eatin' the big one 'cause they had no way to protect themselves! First 48 is one ya ought to pay attention to. It's usually in those "un-gated" communities you slime balls rarely visit, unless you're lookin' to stock up on wacky tobaccy!

[Airwolf]

How about I would rather have a gun and never need it then have need of a gun and not have it. There is no place 100% safe. Just ask any victim. I will be a survivor not a statistic..

[Ballygrl]

just politely ask gun-toting gun advocates why they are so afraid of their neighbors?

You ask that question to hard working people in the hood who are forced to fend for themselves and because of gun laws are prevented from legally protecting themselves against thugs.

[Odin's Hand]

Yeah, let me go fire up a drum-circle with one of my lovely Rollin' 20 Crip, Southside Loco, etc. "neighbors". STFU, DUmmy.

[Randy]

My answer would be to politely tell Mr/Mrs/Screaming ***** Bragi that the reason he/she/perpetually wet pants is able to wander the world with it's head so far up it ass without being beat down and trampled is because society allows people with no fear of inanimate objects to carry them. Also that he/she/sniveling pansy can thank me any time for protecting it's miserable, useless hide.

[Mike220]

My answer would be to politely tell Mr/Mrs/Screaming ***** Bragi that the reason he/she/perpetually wet pants is able to wander the world with it's head so far up it ass without being beat down and trampled is because society allows people with no fear of inanimate objects to carry them. Also that he/she/sniveling pansy can thank me any time for protecting it's miserable, useless hide.

I wonder if the OP DUmbass locks his/her/its doors at night.

If so, wonder why they're so paranoid?

[Randy]

I wonder if the OP DUmbass locks his/her/its doors at night.

If so, wonder why they're so paranoid?

Locks the car door?
Keeps it's money in a bank?
Health insurance?
Car insurance?
Home or renters?
Drivers license?

What's the DUmmie askeert of?

[DumbAss Tanker]

Locks the car door?
Keeps it's money in a bank?
Health insurance?
Car insurance?
Home or renters?
Drivers license?

What's the DUmmie askeert of?

Reality.

 

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Euromutt  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jan-25-11 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
64. Fallacy of presupposition (aka "Have you stopped beating your spouse?")
 (see http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.htm... )
By asking why pro-RKBA types "are so afraid of their neighbors," you're taking it as a given that they are even though you haven't actually presented any evidence that they are. Yes, you can point to the fact that they possess firearms, and possibly carry them outside the house, but then you're just begging the question (http://fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html ).

Your basic premise is also inherently self-contradicting: you argue that gun owners (and vocal RKBA advocates in particular) have an "inordinate fear of others" that is, you imply, not based in reality. At the same time, you argue that we are suffering from a "plague of guns," which I can only assume is expressed in assaultive and negligent shootings. Somebody is committing those shootings; it's not the guns acting of their own volition. In short, your criticism of gun owners that they are needlessly fearful of their fellow citizens is motivated by a fear of gun owners. See the contradiction there?

Your point about "most people" not being "scared simply because they they can't shoot other people at malls, at work, in schools, whatever" is particularly inaptly chosen, since mass killings have occurred in all three environments you listed. Evidently, one cannot trust everyone in such places to not form a threat to one's physical well-being.

In the interim, the reality of the matter is that, while levels of violent crime are nowhere near what they were during the 1970s, 1980s and the first half of the 1990s (even though levels of legal private firearms ownership have increased markedly since then), we still have something in the order of one and a half million "serious violent crimes" committed in the United States annually (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/4meastab... ). It might be noted in passing that 8% of those serious violent crimes were committed by an offender using a gun (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=43 ). Somebody is committing those offenses, and while you may choose to regard those people as your "neighbors," I feel no such obligation.

To be perfectly frank, after working for over three years in one of the UN tribunals for serious violations of international humanitarian law, I have very little faith in the goodness supposedly inherent in mankind. Homo homini lupus and all that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_homini_lupus ), or at least some homines. To paraphrase GreenStormCloud earlier in this thread, I'm not particularly afraid of my neighbors (that is, the people who live on my street, whom I know or at least wave to and get along with) but I don't discount the possibility that there are some people out there who are capable of extremely nasty things.

Let me recount to you the two events that were watershed moments in turning me from a gun control advocate to an RKBA advocate.

The first was reading about the Supreme Court's ruling in Castle Rock, CO v. Gonzales. Ms. Gonzales had sued the City of Castle Rock after her estranged husband kidnapped and murdered their three daughters, and Castle Rock PD sat on their hands throughout, in violation of Colorado state law and a court order, both of which instructed law enforcement to take all necessary measures upon receiving information that a domestic restraining order had been violated (as had happened the moment Simon Gonzales approached the three girls). The Supreme Court's ruling that government could not be held liable for failing to make so much as a good faith effort to protect an individual citizen, even if it broke the law in doing so, clinched the issue for me. I learned in Political Science 101 that authority is the legitimate exercise of power, and to be legitimate, power has to be coupled to responsibility. When government refuses to take any measure of responsibility for protecting the individual citizen, or liability for failing to do so, it thereby abdicates any authority to deprive the individual citizen of the means to protect himself.

The second was when the Puget Sound area was hit by massive storm in December 2006, resulting in widespread power outages. I remember sitting huddled in the candle-lit living room with my wife and eight month-old son, while the wind and rain lashed at the house and the emergency services roared past on the arterial at end of the street (I stepped out onto the porch periodically to smoke), and I realized that if some bunch of opportunistically minded scum decided to exploit the situation by carrying out some home invasions, it would at best be hours before our 45-man local police department got round to assisting us.

Actually, I should factor in another element, which is that while the people in my neighborhood are lovely, the people in the next neighborhood over are remarkably nonchalant about the city's leash laws. My wife's been bitten in the ass by a German shepherd with a territory complex, and my son (when he was just shy of three years) and I ran into a dog that threatened him two streets over from our house. Frankly, half the reason I carry weapons is because of the ****ing loose dogs; I carry pepper spray, both for human and canine assailants, and a handgun in case the pepper spray fails to achieve the desired result.

To be perfectly blunt, when it comes to the choice of protecting my child or gaining your approval, my child wins every time.

Well played.

Methinks gun control is a good stress point within liberalism. Maybe it's just me but the pro-RKBA crowd dances closer to being moderates on many things. Their love of welfare etc seems not as bright as the rest of the DUmp.

[MrsSmith]

politely ask gun-toting gun advocates why they are so afraid of their neighbors?

Yeah, try that.  Your gun-toting "friend" will look at you, grin, and say, "Afraid?  Why would I be afraid of anyone?  I'm a darn good shot!"   

[true_blood]

Bragi  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jan-25-11 08:51 AM
Original message
A tactic in arguing against pro-gun advocates
Edited on Tue Jan-25-11 09:13 AM by Bragi
I've only recently followed the debate at DU on guns, but something that occurs to me is that a good way to frame the discussion for people wanting to address the plague of guns in America is to move away (temporarily) from all the 2nd amendment and legal issues, and to just politely ask gun-toting gun advocates why they are so afraid of their neighbors?

Hey DUmmie, please put down the bong. It's not just for "medical" purposes now, is it?
The wacky tabaccy is making you all sorts of paranoid.

[jukin]

Reminds me of a joke.

A cop pulls over a man.  The guy has a CCW so when the officer approaches he tells him that and that he is carrying a Glock. The cop says OK. Then the guy tells him that he has a 38 snub in an ankle holster, a 45 1911 in the glove box, a 357 under the seat, an 870 police riot gun in the trunk, and a Walther 380 ACP stashed under the hood. The officer ask "What are you afraid of?" He answers "Nothing."

[FlaGator]

I wish I lived such a sheltered life, that it wasn't a concern.

You would also need a lobotomy to get the true experience of being a DU liberal.

[Airwolf]

Locks the car door?
Keeps it's money in a bank?
Health insurance?
Car insurance?
Home or renters?
Drivers license?

What's the DUmmie askeert of?

He /she /it be hatin thats for sure.