Depression

[Thor]

Ok, let's start from the beginning. Joined the Navy at 17 right out of High School. Started getting into sports during my first tour. Move out to San Diego and got into Judo. Not to seem to be bragging, but within my first six months, my coach took me to the Olympic Training Center. Doing that made me a State level athlete. A few more training camps and I was at the National level of competition. It wasn't beyond me to do a ten mile run. I was even contemplating doing some marathons and triathlons, at least the mini triathlons. Recruiting duty took its toll on me, physically. (That and being in Minnesota) Get back to Sea Duty and get back in pretty decent shape, but not as good as I was before. Ultimately retired. Hit 40 and I started falling apart. I now know why. Three spine surgeries and still no decent results. Doc was ready to give me a transfusion because I had become so anemic. (I eat a LOT of red meat, so that shouldn't have happened. ) Depression sets in. Not too bad at first, but still.  Ultimately divorced because of my failing health. Move back home and started doing some serious Doctoring, trying to figure out why I was so messed up and not starting to work right (physically) after all of the spine surgeries. In the interim, the Docs have me on some meds that already cause depression.Turns out I have this spino-cerebellar ataxia. No family history, etc.

Anyways, not being able to do many of the things I could once do, I went into somewhat of a depression. Recently, I read where my meds  actually killed any vitamin B-12 that was in my body. (in particular, metformin) Doing some research, I discovered that one of the symptoms of B-12 deficiency  is depression. Another is neuropathy. Lately, I started taking LARGE amounts of B-12 and my depression seems to be fading. It hasn't helped my neuropathy, yet.  So, I would like to recommend that IF someone is suffering from depression, get them on the B-12.It just may help. Regardless, it won't hurt as too much vitamin B is just excreted as waste. An article I read suggested that I needed 400 times the RDA.

NaturalNews) Long-term use of the popular diabetes drug metformin (originally marketed as Glucophage) may cause patients to develop a steadily worsening vitamin B12 deficiency, Dutch scientists have found.

"Our study shows that this decrease is not a transitory phenomenon, but persists and grows over time," wrote the Maastricht University Medical Center researchers in the British Medical Journal.

This is an issue of particular concern given the prevalence of diabetes and the popularity of metformin as a treatment.

"Metformin is considered a cornerstone in the treatment of diabetes and is the most frequently prescribed first line therapy for individuals with type 2 diabetes," the researchers wrote. "In addition, it is one of a few ... associated with improvements in cardiovascular morbidity and mortality, which is a major cause of death in patients with type 2 diabetes."

Earlier, short-term studies had found that use of the drug might lead to insufficient levels of the vitamin in the body. The new study confirmed this trend over the long term.

"Metformin does ... induce vitamin B12 malabsorption, which may increase the risk of developing vitamin B12 deficiency -- a clinically important and treatable condition," the researchers wrote.

The researchers assigned 390 Type 2 diabetes patients at the outpatient clinics of three nonacademic hospitals to take either metformin or a placebo pill three times per day for more than four years. The average study participant had been diagnosed with diabetes 13 years prior and had been undergoing insulin treatment for seven years. Average participant age was 61.

Among those taking metformin, vitamin B12 levels began to steadily drop relative to those who were taking a placebo pill. The biggest drop occurred in the first few months, but the decrease continued over the course of the study.

After four years, participants in the metformin group had undergone a 19 percent relative reduction in their levels of the nutrient. They were 11.2 percent more likely than placebo participants to suffer from B12 insufficiency and 7.2 percent more likely to suffer from deficiency.

For every 8.9 patients treated with metformin, one would develop insufficient vitamin B12 levels. This increased risk remained after researchers adjusted for other risk factors including age, duration of diabetes, insulin dose, sex, smoking status and previous treatment with metformin.

"Our study shows that it is reasonable to assume harm will eventually occur in some patients with metformin-induced low vitamin B12 levels," the researchers wrote.

The researchers found that metformin seems to inhibit the intestine's absorption of vitamin B12. Fortunately, calcium supplements appear to reverse this effect.

Vitamin B12 is critical for maintaining nerve and red blood cell health. It can be found in animal products, nutritional yeast and fortified breakfast cereals. Symptoms of deficiency include anemia, fatigue, nerve damage and cognitive changes. Because similar symptoms often occur in diabetics and the elderly, deficiency may be hard to detect in such populations. Yet while B12 deficiency can carry severe consequences, it is relatively easy to correct with supplementation.

The researchers suggested that all patients taking metformin have their vitamin B12 levels tested regularly to avoid potentially severe consequences.

"Vitamin B-12 deficiency is preventable; therefore, our findings suggest that regular measurement of vitamin B-12 concentrations during long-term metformin treatment should be strongly considered." the researchers wrote.

Nearly 11 percent of the U.S. population, or 24 million people, suffer from diabetes. Of these 5.7 million are undiagnosed. In addition, 57 million people in the United States alone are estimated to be pre-diabetic, or at imminent risk of developing the disease.

Worldwide, an estimated 246 million people suffer from the disease. Prevalence is only expected to increase as the spreading Western diet and lifestyle lead to increasing rates of obesity.

Sources for this story include: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS... http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle... http://www.medpagetoday.com/Endocri....

http://www.naturalnews.com/030234_Metformin_vitamin_B12.html

Now, let's look at the symptoms of B-12 deficiency more closely.

Vitamin B12 deficiency has a whole list of common presenting features that include:

Fatigue
Brain fog
Weakness
Depression

Besides Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, the somewhat vague symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency can mimic many other diseases as well. According to Doctors Norbert Goebels and Michael Soyka, "Vitamin B(12) deficiency has long been associated with a wide variety of hematological, neurological, and psychiatric disorders." Unfortunately, until doctors begin to look for Vitamin B12 deficiency and not macrocytic anemia, we are calling these problems things like:

Chronic Fatigue
Fibromyalgia
Dementia
Mental Illness
And Even Multiple Sclerosis

http://www.naturalnews.com/027001_deficiency_vitamin_B12_B.html

I haven't really experienced any major brain fog. But I have experienced everything else listed. There's eve speculation that my spino-cerebellar ataxia could be a symptom of MS.

So, Inga as me on some rather strong B-12 supplements that I take several times a day. Over the last two days, I've noticed that my depression has diminished. Let's hope that this trend continues. (For example: today was a rainy and cool day. Pretty much miserable. I didn't feel all that bad. At least not as bad as I felt last week.

To determine the right dosage, one might look here:

In fact, some studies showed that it required up to 9000 micrograms per day (9mg) in order to achieve the 'maximum feeling of well-being' as reported by patients REGARDLESS of their vitamin B12 level! That's 9 times higher than the standard dose that doctors give in order to correct deficiency. But that seemingly 'megadose' of 9000 micrograms per day was used specifically for the treatment of fatigue; vitamin B12 has been used in doses up to 40 milligrams per day, that's 40,000 micrograms per day, in order to treat or to delay progression of nervous system disorders such as Alzheimer's Disease and Multiple Sclerosis. The vast majority of these studies ALSO showed that almost no one had any ill effects from such high doses, so it's undeniable that this vitamin is safe in doses much higher than the 'standard' 1000 micrograms per day.

http://www.naturalnews.com/027095_vitamin_B12_deficiency_B.html

[asdf2231]

THANK YOU.

Seriously.

[Chris_]

Brain fog? 

"You're suffering from a brain cloud.  I'm afraid it's incurable."


Sorry for the joke.  I may have to give this a try.

[debk]

Glad you found this out!!! Hoping the B-12 works for you.

Living with someone who suffered from an extended time of extreme depression, and the resulting consequences....it's good to know that you and/or Inga recognized it and knew what to try before it became progressively worse. <<<<hugs>>>>

[TVDOC]

Glad you found this out!!! Hoping the B-12 works for you.

Living with someone who suffered from an extended time of extreme depression, and the resulting consequences....it's good to know that you and/or Inga recognized it and knew what to try before it became progressively worse. <<<<hugs>>>>

If B-12 therapy works for you it is vastly superior to the alternative........as a general rule antidepressant drugs often create more onerous side effects than they do beneficial ones.......

doc

[debk]

If B-12 therapy works for you it is vastly superior to the alternative........as a general rule antidepressant drugs often create more onerous side effects than they do beneficial ones.......

doc

The effects, of excessive amounts of alcohol, have no benefits.

None. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

[Chris_]

The effects, of excessive amounts of alcohol, have no benefits.

None. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

True.  Over the summer, I cut down on my alcohol consumption (it's not summer anymore).  That, and regular sleep with plenty of sunlight or bright indoor lighting helped me.

[debk]

True.  Over the summer, I cut down on my alcohol consumption (it's not summer anymore).  That, and regular sleep with plenty of sunlight or bright indoor lighting helped me.

It also helps to recognize that depression happens and it's effects are quite real.

Too often, alcohol is used as a "fix" for an unknown "symptom"...when the "symptom" is actually depression. Feeding depression with a depressant is a very bad combination. It only makes the depression worse, which has a tendency for the alcohol fix to be increased - until both are out of control.

Then everything goes out of control..... 

[Chris_]

I replaced a broken overhead light with a single 100-watt socket in my dining room with one that was rated for 500 watts and bought a bulb to fit (300 watts).  It's bright, bright, bright, but I love having it.

[debk]

I replaced a broken overhead light with a single 100-watt socket in my dining room with one that was rated for 500 watts and bought a bulb to fit (300 watts).  It's bright, bright, bright, but I love having it.

Our old house had a lot of windows, but due to the terrain, the land went up much higher not far from the house itself and was surrounded by trees. We always had to have lights on in the summer, not as much in the winter when the leaves were off the trees.

New on sits on the side of a hill, towards the top, no trees and still lots of windows. Most of them on the south and west sides of the house. What a difference!!!!

[soleil]

I hope this helps you. At least you are researching and trying to help yourself in the process.

I went through a short bout of depression/anxiety about 6 years ago. It was the freakiest thing, and it came on fast. Just one day I woke up freaked out. Brushing my teeth made me puke. My heart was going 100 miles a minute. My chest felt tight. It was hard for me to get out of bed. Still unsure as to what triggered it. I blame not dealing properly with the death of my brother catching up with me, but really I just don't know. I went to the doc, got on medication, and felt better in a few days. I didn't get on Zanax or Prozac, but I got on a longer term bed. I think it was Lexapro??? But I got off after I felt better. I am  not one to take pills. Never did I have that feeling again, but I became a hypochondriac. I diagnosed myself with throat cancer (it was a freakin lymph node). I diagnosed myself with bone cancer (apparently one of my ribs is much shorter than the others, and I thought it was a tumor). These kind of things kept going on until I decided I couldn't do this anymore. Back to the meds. Different meds. Effexor this time, and I stayed on it a while. I was fine and dandy until I delivered my daughter and Post Partum set in. I never had that feeling of wanting to stick my baby in the oven, but I was crying a lot, not eating...  Back on meds. This time Welbutrin I think. And I only took it for a bit.

Soooo, these days I am good. I guess I have a strong chance of going through PPD again, but this time I will be aware of it, and I will deal with it ahead of time if I can.

I wasn't aware of the B-12, but I am on multivitamins now, so I think I am good on the B-12. I hope you get this under control. It is terrible to go through it because you just don't feel like yourself. BEing proactive is very helpful though. Best of luck.

[TVDOC]

The effects, of excessive amounts of alcohol, have no benefits.

None. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

Er.....I was actually referring to Serotonin and MAOI inhibitors, not alcohol......

doc

[soleil]

Er.....I was actually referring to Serotonin and MAOI inhibitors, not alcohol......

doc

I think they are a temporary fix. They work for a bit, but you can't be on them for life. Or you shouldn't.

[debk]

Er.....I was actually referring to Serotonin and MAOI inhibitors, not alcohol......

doc

I know you were referring to Rx meds.

Sadly, many people use alcohol ....either because they don't know they are suffering from depression and think alcohol with give them the "pick-me-up" they want or if they do know, they use alcohol because they think anti-depressants (Rx) are bad things.

[IassaFTots]

I have a clinic, that we use for our drug testing, and flu shots.  I get a B-12 shot every month.  They cost $15.  And worth every penny.  It is amazing how good I feel after it.  Not only do I have more energy, but I feel clear headed and ready to DO something.  I know I can get one more often than that, I don't basically because I forget.  Kind of a catch-22.  I figure I suffer from mild depression, as it is pretty easy for me to become lethargic, and a big time procrastinator. When I get that way I try to work on it by making myself do something.  Anything productive so I have something to feel proud about, and then I don't get so bummed. 

B-12 is awesome in my book.  It also makes the tension in my shoulders go away temporarily at any rate.  I highly suggest it.  Glad it is working for you Thor!

[Thor]

Between the real life issues I'm still recovering from, the meds, the illness and in general, not being able to do the stuff I really enjoyed, it's not surprising that I'm depressed. Any relief is good, especially if it's a natural  remedy instead of those nasty drugs. I already take enough nasty drugs, I'm surprised that I can function at times.

[bijou]

Interesting, I know I'm feeling really run down when I start craving Marmite. Must be the B12 in it that my body needs.

[BEG]

Thanks for the info Thor.  I had read about vitamin B and depression. When I went to the doctor he did a lot of blood tests and I wasn't low on vitamin B. In fact my blood tests all came back normal.  I take supplements anyway.

I have come out of my funk, I have no idea if it is the zoloft or I just came out of it on my own. There is no way I would have painted my daughters bedroom, my bedroom, bathroom and bedroom furniture on my own 6 months ago. I had no energy nor desire to do anything.  

I am only on 50 mg of zoloft but I'm afraid to get off it for fear of my depression coming back.  

[true_blood]

Sorry to hear about your situation Thor. Hang in there. I hope the B12 does work for you.
I don't know what I would do if I couldn't workout any more and do my cardio. Stay strong man!

[IassaFTots]

Interesting, I know I'm feeling really run down when I start craving Marmite. Must be the B12 in it that my body needs.

If I ever crave any food, it is always steak, salmon, or spinach.  I figure if I have that kind of craving, something is out of whack, and I need to eat it.  Never have had Marmite, I figure it would smell.  Does it smell?

[bijou]

If I ever crave any food, it is always steak, salmon, or spinach.  I figure if I have that kind of craving, something is out of whack, and I need to eat it.  Never have had Marmite, I figure it would smell.  Does it smell?

It smells slighty yeasty and does taste salty but you only need a light scraping on toast. As their ads say you'll either love ot or hate it.

[JohnnyReb]

I once was taking 25 mg of the drug Antivert 4 times a day for vertigo caused by an inner ear infection. My uncle (the doctor) asked why I was taking it and did I feel depressed. My answer was yes I'm a little depressed. He said that the amount I was taking was enough to depress a horse. He said that I should break them in half and take 12 1/2 mg 3 times a day....also said quit smoking, clear up that sinus problem and you won't have inner ear trouble and vertigo any more.

Cutting the dosage really made a difference but I also discovered that the inner ear problem made me feel 'blah' which also contributed to some mild depression. So read up on the medications you're taking and see how many may cause or contribute to depression.

[Thor]

I already know that at least three of my meds cause depression, maybe four. One causes SERIOUS depression, even suicidal thoughts.

[vesta111]

I already know that at least three of my meds cause depression, maybe four. One causes SERIOUS depression, even suicidal thoughts.

Neophyte hope the spelling is correct.  Nasty stuff, I kept breaking my bones due to sudden spasms that caused my feet to twist.     I had the electric tests that showed that I had a severe case and needed surgery.  I did not like the surgeon I was sent to and decided to forgo that idea.

Funny, about a year ago I saw a ad for a lawyer that was getting a class law suit against a denture glue company where people who used the glue 24/7 had developed Neophyte.      So as I have a lower plate and had used the glue for years decided to stop using the glue and the hell with others  who looked at me odd, just go without it.

Last time I was tested for Neophyte   after 12 months with no glue, my nerves were coming back big time.   

As for the vit. B12, my blood tests come back as OK for the vit. and I have heard that at my age my stomach cannot process B12 to get it into my blood stream.  Sub lingual will do it as will shots but taking oral pills is a waste of time and money.

As far as medication giving one the feelings of suicide, well these thoughts come unbidden to those on no medication.

I am on Effector for years due to my fear for my child's health, the one that needs a liver transplant.     Strange that when things are at it's worse I never have any thought  of sucicide, it just seems to come in as a very short fleeting thought when things are going well---10 seconds or so then gone.

Distractions from the thought, dog needs to go out, cats are fighting, phone rings, Fox has a news allert. ---all thoughts of self  and whatever are gone.

I had my Mom get on my case today, she called me to reem out my butt.  She said I looked like hell, never left the house and needed to get my hair cut, my nails done , get some exersise ---walk the dogs-- and begin to come back into the world of the living.

No excuses from me, just do it.  She is threatening to visit unaounced 4 times a week and I had best have my hair combed, make up on and be ready to leave the house with her for a ride to the mall. 

Thank God for mothers, she is almost 90 years old and ready to still be a Momma Bear for me.

[Thor]

I THINK THAT you meant to say "Neuropathy" vs "Neophyte"......