The disintegration of DU - The fire department threads

[Ballygrl]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9263149

GoneOffShore  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)
Tue Oct-05-10 11:31 PM
Original message
The disintegration of DU - The fire department threads

I'm not getting it.

Fire departments are supposed to save lives and property.

The one in question let the property burn to the ground and let innocent animals die all on the strength of a $75 fee not being paid.

Let us discount everything but that.

There is an obvious "libertarian" element here that echoes those who totally support free markets and the entire "fee for public service". I see too many people condemning the guy who didn't pay his bill.

It's really not about that.

It's whether we think of ourselves as part of a community, regardless of whether or not someone "pays up" or not.
It's whether we want to take part in the commonweal or not.

Too many here obviously don't.

That makes me sad and should make those who don't care for their fellows ashamed.

But there are many here who have bought into the "us versus them" paradigm and do not suffer from shame.

Taverner  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) 
Tue Oct-05-10 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree - however - I am not shocked
   
This is capitalism

It's how it works

Sucks - doesn't it?

GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Tue Oct-05-10 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It sucks unbelievably.
   
And I'm appalled that so many here have bought into the paradigm.

awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Wed Oct-06-10 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
108. so many here...
   
came on board during Rush's "Operation Chaos". Unfortunately, they didn't leave when the primaries were over.

 

Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Wed Oct-06-10 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #108
125. yes, i wonder who those people are. maybe the ones who inevitably side against publicly funded
   
Edited on Wed Oct-06-10 02:32 AM by Hannah Bell
entities such as schools, municipal fire departments, & "socialistically" funded unionized gm workers, & the like.

i've noticed the same posters on the same side of all those issues.

the people who support school deform & lowering gm wages are the same folks saying that the publicly funded city fire department in a city of 2500 people should bankrupt itself fighting 75% of its fire calls for people who won't pay.

KittyWampus  (1000+ posts)      
Wed Oct-06-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
175. "Bought into the paradigm"? I believe in paying taxes for municipal services BUT THAT WASN'T
   
the system. There was a different system in place. And taxpayers and politicians haven't chosen to change it.

It's like a huge segment of DU can't handle reality.

freebrew  (430 posts)      
Wed Oct-06-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #164
243. OK, I'll type this really slowly, maybe you'll see...
   
A county cannot levy taxes without a vote.

The citizens of that county voted to NOT fund a FD.

Why would the city FD put out fires time and again for freeloaders that refuse a measly $75 fee?

If the city FD spends all of the money on county fires that are not paid for, what do the citizens of the city, who HAVE paid do for protection?

Why was this asshole burning during drought conditions?

If this is the second fire thay've had, there are more problems than meet the eye. People just don't have fires that often unless they are careless and/or stupid.

Would I have put the fire out? Yes. But that's just me.

Jakes Progress 
Wed Oct-06-10 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
209. This is true of many issues.
   
The blue-dog-centrist segment, the anything-a-D-does-is-good group, the progressives-are-ruining-everything quorum. They all represent small segments of DU but post with abandon and such venom that they get the attention they want. On any post that they attack or promote there seems to be equal numbers on each side if you just count the posts. If you count the posters, DU is quite progressive and humane oriented. But they refuse to be ignored or go find their own Blue Dog Underground site. So we are stuck with them. Luckily, it doesn't take long to determine their purposes. They have every right to be here, but we mustn't begin to think that they are the majority here.

petronius  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)      
Tue Oct-05-10 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. Actually, I think posts like this OP are better evidence of the disintegration of DU
   
than anything on the FD threads. You make so many assumptions and false claims about other DUers that it's clear you haven't even tried to comprehend any opinion on the FD threads that conflict with your own. The 'us vs them' paradigm is your construct, and you're doing it here on DU, not in TN...

(And I say you merely for convenience, it's clearly a broad-based problem.)

dmr  DU Moderator Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Wed Oct-06-10 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
291. We're going to lock this now
   
We've found that this OP is divisive & meets our criteria for flamebait.

Thank you for understanding
dmr
DU Moderator

It's a huge freaking bonfire thread before it gets locked.

[AllosaursRus]

GoneOffShore  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)
Tue Oct-05-10 11:31 PM
Original message
The disintegration of DU - The fire department threads

I'm not getting it.

Fire departments are supposed to save lives and property.

The one in question let the property burn to the ground and let innocent animals die all on the strength of a $75 fee not being paid.

Let us discount everything but that.

There is an obvious "libertarian" element here that echoes those who totally support free markets and the entire "fee for public service". I see too many people condemning the guy who didn't pay his bill.

It's really not about that.

It's whether we think of ourselves as part of a community, regardless of whether or not someone "pays up" or not.
It's whether we want to take part in the commonweal or not.

Too many here obviously don't.

That makes me sad and should make those who don't care for their fellows ashamed.

But there are many here who have bought into the "us versus them" paradigm and do not suffer from shame.

I agree with this to a certain extent. No FireFighter I know would stand by and let this happen!

Okay, sure, the guy didn't pay his bill, but how does that warrant lettin' his place burn to the ground. Most cities or counties have a clause where you get sent a bill for the expenses if you're not paid up.

I find this particular instance unforgivable. Save the guy's house and send him a bill for services! How difficult is that to figure out?

ETA:

To tell ya the truth, just how did the Fire Dept know this guy wasn't paid up? Did they stop long enough to check? Seems to me that's not how our Fire Dept works! They haul ass and get there as quickly as possible in order to put the fire out. They sift thru the paperwork as an afterthought!

[Duke Nukum]

Why do the DUmmies keep saying this is capitalism?  Isn't the FD here run by a city that funds it via taxes?

[JohnnyReb]

Just asking...which party was in control when the laws/rules for that fire department were made.

When our volunteer FD was started back in the 50's the government had no control over it or furnished any funds for it what so ever. The fellows sold catfish stew and chipped in funds from their own pockets to get it started. They asked every house to donate $5 per year to the department. Every house didn't cough up the $5 but they never refused to put out a fire at one that didn't.

[Carl]

reebrew  (430 posts)     
Wed Oct-06-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #164
243. OK, I'll type this really slowly, maybe you'll see...
   
A county cannot levy taxes without a vote.

The citizens of that county voted to NOT fund a FD.

Why would the city FD put out fires time and again for freeloaders that refuse a measly $75 fee?

If the city FD spends all of the money on county fires that are not paid for, what do the citizens of the city, who HAVE paid do for protection?

Why was this asshole burning during drought conditions?

If this is the second fire thay've had, there are more problems than meet the eye. People just don't have fires that often unless they are careless and/or stupid.

Would I have put the fire out? Yes. But that's just me.

You have just defined leftism and why this cuts so deep.
Just about every DUmmy to their very core wants everything for nothing on their part.

[Airwolf]

If the county had just added the cost into the property taxes then this might not have happened. The guy claimed he forgot to pay up. Ok fine but like others have said put it out and then bill him. If he refuses then kick his ass out and sell it.

[chitownchica]

Over the past few days, I've been conflicted over this whole FD issue.  On the one hand, the man stated his son had a fire in the past, and although the son didn't pay his subscription, the FD still put it out and then sent him the bill.  This man thought the same thing would happen.  From what I've read, the FD has covered non-payers in the past, and then when they later tried to collect, the people wouldn't pay.  Should the citizens who pay foot the bill for those non-payers? In a non-threatening situation, I'd say no. With this, however, it seems the negatives of letting the fire burn far outweigh anything they may have gained.  Pets were in the house and died.  What about the property values of those who live nearby?

I don't know that many firemen, but the few I know would want to make sure the fire was out and then worry about payment later.  Couldn't the city send the bill, and then if the person doesn't pay, the city could sue for non-payment? I'm not really sure how that works.

Ultimately, though, I'm sad to hear about this whole sorry mess.  

[chitownchica]

Nadinbrazinski is basically calling for a civil war over this in some of her threads.  I'll  have to sift through some of her screeds, but basically she has said this is how the south works, and the sooner we have a civil war and split up, the better. In fact, she welcomes it.  She's a 1st class idiot.

[notaDUmmie]

If the county had just added the cost into the property taxes then this might not have happened. The guy claimed he forgot to pay up. Ok fine but like others have said put it out and then bill him. If he refuses then kick his ass out and sell it.

These are the types of services that taxes should pay for, IMO, but the county had voted to not tax their residents.  Given that, the fee had to be either paid or no services would be rendered.

I feel sorry for the guy, I truly do, but if I'm not willing to pay for life insurance, I shouldn't expect to call the insurance company from my death bed and ask to buy a policy.

[true_blood]

Taverner  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)
Tue Oct-05-10 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree - however - I am not shocked
   
This is capitalism

It's how it works

Sucks - doesn't it?

OH YEAH!!! It really sucks, huh?! 
Do you still say that capitalism still sucks when you get your 401k statement and your bottom line goes up!?! You stupid DUmmies!

[Ptarmigan]

Firefighters are a government service. The firefighter should of stopped the fire and let the man pay after wards.

[Evil_Conservative]

This whole fire thing pisses me off.  This fire department let a house burn down over a measly $75.  They have displaced a family and made them homeless over $75.  I do understand the fee and why it's charged though.  However, how can you just stand there and watch a house burn to the ground?  If anything, put the fire out and charge him the $75 on top of the bill for the fire truck start up, water, man power, etc. 

He could have possibly still had his home today.

I just don't see how firefighter's could just stand around and let someone's home go up in flames.  Karma is a bitch.

[miskie]

there is a lot of tricky laws, or lack of law that makes this situation sticky at best. The short of it is one cannot retroactively charge for a service provided voluntarily, unless there are laws that specifically allow charging for specific services under certain circumstances.

For example  -

A hiker gets rescued because something unexpected occurred, putting his or her life in danger. Gratis.
A hiker gets rescued because they behaved irresponsibly and put him/herself in danger. Hiker foots the bill.

Laws like the example above exist in several states, so there is precedent to formulate a law where residents outside of city limits who do not buy fire coverage from the neighboring town will still be served in case of fire, but the uncovered citizen will be responsible for the entire cost of the operation, and the cost of the service may be recouped through liens or property forfeiture if necessary. They could also allow a citizen in the unincorporated community to opt out in writing, which would disallow any service beyond lifesaving measures.

But until that happens, the service would be considered voluntary, and the volunteers would be unable to bill for any service rendered retroactively. 

[ROCKURWORLD]

Again...Insurance is the only thing you can't buy when you need it........well except for Obama Care 

[whiffleball]

One thing this did for me was forced me to go down to City Hall and pay the subscription fee.  We have County service, but there are only 2 24 hour manned stations for a large rural county.  If we pay the fee to the city, who is much closer with a manned station, they will respond.

I had an interesting discussion with the City Clerk yesterday.  She said that the City responds to ALL fires within the county as long as the trucks aren't being deployed elsewhere at the time.  It is not this city's policy to stand by and let a home burn regardless of the subscription fee status.  She also said that while they don't bill for services to homes not on the fee paid list, they may do so in the future.  This service also applies to 911 rescue. 

We've been living here for a while and never even heard of this option until the story broke.  Some neighbors pay the fee; some don't.  You only hear of it by word of mouth.  I'm just going to consider it extra insurance from now on. 

[Karin]

Nearly every thread at the DUmp concerns this, and it's maddening.  Plus, Taverner doesn't understand the definition of "Capitalism," but then again, he's one of the stupidest people over there. 

My take comes down to:  1) basic human decency and morality.  The fire should have been put out, and that's what I would have done if I were a firefighter there, regardless of orders from above.  Animals were in there, for God's sake.

And 2)  Always pay my annual fire department's donation pleas.

[Carl]

One has to remember premise that DUmmies come from and why this is such an outrage to them.

It is doubtful that it has anything to do with compassion or decency but that a fee (tax) needed to be paid to get the protection.

They expect a government to provide this to them always free of charge and paid for by "the rich".

[Ballygrl]

A part of me feels bad for this guy losing his home, I'm sad about the pets, but from everything I read this person stiffed the FD when his last house had a fire, at what point does personal responsibility come into play?

[true_blood]

Typical DUmmie fashion. Don't pay the bill and then when you "need" the service, complain, bitch and moan that you got stiffed. Typical DUmmie behavior!

[NHSparky]

Bottom line, the DUmmies love to claim that taxes are the price we pay for civilization, yet when one DOESN'T pay their taxes and doesn't get the same services as someone who does, it's somehow a criminal act?

Oh, and the fire was started by the 21-year old son, and the FD needed almost 2 hours to respond.  Add that to the fact that they had previously stiffed the FD, and I'm finding less and less sympathy for these people.

[dutch508]

These are the types of services that taxes should pay for, IMO, but the county had voted to not tax their residents.  Given that, the fee had to be either paid or no services would be rendered.

I feel sorry for the guy, I truly do, but if I'm not willing to pay for life insurance, I shouldn't expect to call the insurance company from my death bed and ask to buy a policy.

welcome bitchslap.

[moko]

If one takes anything useful away from all this , it would be 


" Cut your damn grass  "   

[USA4ME]

GoneOffShore

It's whether we think of ourselves as part of a community, regardless of whether or not someone "pays up" or not.

This is the essance of why liberalism is a failure and why if we were to magically wake up in a world the way the primitives envision it, we could destroy it in a matter of months.  See, it doesn't matter if you do your part, we're all part of a community.  So if we all just sat around and did nothing, there'd be enough of these bleeding heart idiots to give us all we needed regardless of our determination not to lift a finger.  After a while, they'd either fall apart at the seems or they'd have to start breaking their rules of "regardless of whether or not someone 'pays up' or not," and it's game over.

.

[notaDUmmie]

welcome bitchslap.

Sorry, but I have no idea what this means.

[true_blood]

Sorry, but I have no idea what this means.

See your "score card" under your screen name. If people like what you have to post, the give you a high five. If they disagree or don't like what you posted, you can get bitch slapped. Just click on the one you want to use.