It's the Greek Banker's Fault.

[thundley4]

Hannah Bell   (1000+ posts)             Tue Sep-14-10 05:25 AM
Original message
Greek debt crisis fuels fears of European sovereign default
(C&P article detailing the woes of the Greek Government.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9129989

Hannah Bell should move to Cuba. Oh wait, Castro has said communism is failing. 

DoctorK (26 posts)           Tue Sep-14-10 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. how do they intend
   
to have their cake and eat it too?

"The core of these demonstrations is the resistance to the plans of the government to increase the price of heating oil, as well as VAT and electricity rates."

Will marching cause someone to send them heating oil for less than what someone else, somewhere else, will pay?
Greece has run enormous deficits for too long. They have borrowed from the future to increase consumption in the present. The future has arrived, and now they are faced with reducing consumption to pay for the past.

Freeper Troll

blindpig   (1000+ posts)           Tue Sep-14-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. That's a ruling class analysis..
   

What is going on is a crisis of capitalism with the financial sector leaning on government to bail out their sorry, over-reaching asses. Sound familiar? The difference between Greece and the US is that in Greece the working class is organized and ain't gonna take that shit laying down.

Mebbe after the Cat Food Commission is done we will buy a clue and take a few pages from the Greeks.

DoctorK (26 posts)           Tue Sep-14-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. the problem is financing GOVT debt in Greece
   
"What is going on is a crisis of capitalism with the financial sector leaning on government to bail out their sorry, over-reaching asses. Sound familiar?"

The private sector, meaning individuals with their own savings (in the form of banks in other European countries), are refusing to buy the Greek government's debt without an adequate risk premium. That's why the spread between Greek and German bonds is so high. People expect the Germans, who cut their budget and having a growing economy, to repay money they lend them. There is fear the Greeks won't be able to repay the bonds they're issuing because they've become so indebted (the govt. lied about the scope of its deficits to qualify for the Euro). In short, the government has made promises it cannot pay. It has repeatedly borrowed to pay those promises to the point that it's ability to service that debt is at risk.


What you're alluding to as a 'crisis of capitalism' in America was actually a crisis of fractional reserve banking. Fractional reserve banking is fundamentally dishonest, and at its core a confidence game. The biggest mistake the Democrats made was using the full faith and credit of the United States taxpayer to backstop the fraud.

The solution to fractional reserve banking is to end legal tender laws and restore hard money and refuse to bail out firms that are insolvent with tax dollars.

Your Pizza is being readied.

blindpig   (1000+ posts)           Tue Sep-14-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Sounds like the banker's problem to me.
   

If the Greeks refuse to pay what they gonna do? If the Greek government continues to put the squeeze on the people it is liable to be toppled by people who will tell the bankers to go **** themselves. Will the Germans invade to secure the assets? We should have told the financiers the same. They are parasites of service only to the capitalists, they produce nothing of value, it takes workers to do that.

FLPanhandle (468 posts)           Tue Sep-14-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. If the Greeks refuse to pay, the banks won't loan them money
   
That'll force an immediate balancing of income to spending. The cuts will be much worse that way.

It's hard to piss of the banks when you need to keep borrowing from them.

Anther Freeper troll.

Xolodno (237 posts)           Tue Sep-14-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. eeessshhh....
   
It sounds like the Greeks are considering a withdrawl from the Euro, and the utilization of inflation to mask the reduction in wages that will result fom their overspending.
Whether they reduce wages, or inflate their currency to achieve the same in a less perceivable way, the reckoning is coming.


If your the average Greek Joe Gyro and the country goes off the Euro in order to inflate the currency to pay for its debt, what incentive do you have for keeping Greek currency? You will hold on to every euro you get and exchange them to another stable currency as soon as possible. And if a significant portion of the populace did this...ouch. They should have done this as a first course of action, while the populace still had some trust in their government...not when they don't.

That's all so far, but three Freeper Trolls in one thread?  Not one of the DUmmies blamed or recognized the out of control social spending as causing the Greek troubles. 

[DumbAss Tanker]

Because, of course, it has to SOMEBODY'S fault.

 

[Ballygrl]

Awwwww, DoctorK is adorable!

DoctorK  (27 posts)
Tue Sep-14-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. not enough money in the 'greek banks'
   
"Nationalize the Greek banks and let them take care of Greece's in country needs."

You don't seem to understand. Greeks have been living beyond their means and not saving sufficiently to fund the expenditures of their government (Japan has very high government debt, but has also had very high savings rates to fund it without relying on external savings). The Greeks have relied on borrowing from UK, German and French banks (largely).
If they refuse to repay, the people saving money in UK, Germany, and France will refuse to lend them anymore (effectively being robbed of their savings by deadbeat Greeks). That is why the EU 'leaders' stepped in and setup the bail-out plan for Greece. They hoped to staunch the bleeding, and if the Greeks started living within their means, get their loans repaid.
What you're advocating, unwittingly, is the institution of austerity measures that outstrip the government's efforts to reign in spending.
As already noted. If they go back to the Drachma and continue spending the same way they'll have to make room on their notes for a lot of zeros to keep up with the ensuing inflation (which will punish the poor and those who save or lived on fixed incomes the most).

DoctorK (27 posts)
Tue Sep-14-10 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. a distinction between Greece and the US, UK, and Japan
   
from the article:
"The International Monetary Fund has sought to play down the risk of a nation defaulting on its debt. The IMF said in a September 1 report that “current market indicators of default risk seem to reflect some market overreaction”.

This evaluation was in contradiction to the results of an IMF study that detailed governmental debt sustainability internationally. The study researchers concluded that many countries are now running unsustainable levels of debt and have virtually no “fiscal space”. Fiscal space was defined by the IMF as the difference between the current level of public debt and a debt limit implied by each country’s own record of fiscal adjustment. The fiscal space indices essentially measure how much scope a nation has to borrow from financial institutions before the markets shuts off the supply of funds by demanding unsustainable interest rates.

“In particular, Greece, Italy, Japan, and Portugal appear to have the least fiscal space, with Iceland, Ireland, Spain, the United Kingdom, and the United States also constrained in their degree of fiscal manoeuvre” the study said."

The US, UK, and Japan don't have to risk default, per se. They have their own central banks that can always print money to buy government debt, with the attendant reduction in purchasing power of that money. Greece can't inflate it's problem away because it is a member of the Euro, and does not have control of the ECB.
Greece thereby isn't threatened by hyperinflation, but is constrained by the willingness of people to lend them money.
It sounds like the Greeks are considering a withdrawl from the Euro, and the utilization of inflation to mask the reduction in wages that will result fom their overspending.
Whether they reduce wages, or inflate their currency to achieve the same in a less perceivable way, the reckoning is coming.

[AllosaursRus]

Not one mention of Greece's gubmint handouts bein' the reason they're outa money!

No mention of the people demanding that they shouldn't have to take a cut in their cradle to grave welfare checks!

No mention of the people's unions refusing to negotiate a fair wage in order to keep their country from lookin' like N. Korea!

Big frikkin' surprise, DUmmies!

ETA:

Government mandated paid vacation................

9  Greece: employees who have completed 10 years of service with the same employer, or 12 years with several employers, are entitled to 25 working days of paid leave per year.

United States: Federal law does not mandate pay for time not worked. Although vacation policies vary widely, many organisations provide three weeks of vacation after five to ten years of service. Unionised employees generally have vacation time specified under collective agreements.

Source.........Mandated Government Bennies by country

[WildRose]

The problem in Greece is mainly related to the strength of their public employees union. They are doing the same thing to the government of Greece that the UAW did to Chrysler and GM.

The only union which is still growing in the US is our own public employee union and now on average, comparing job to job a government worker is averaging nearly double the pay and benefits of a private sector employee doing the exact same job.

The Greeks are showing us where we are headed and the idiot leftists in this country refuse to acknowledge it.

[zeitgeist]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the population of Greece slightly less than low estimate of illegals in the US (12 mil)?? And really, isn't the use of Evil Banker, (Shylock for the Shakesperian set) just a dog whistle for Jew?? 

[AllosaursRus]

The problem in Greece is mainly related to the strength of their public employees union. They are doing the same thing to the government of Greece that the UAW did to Chrysler and GM.

The only union which is still growing in the US is our own public employee union and now on average, comparing job to job a government worker is averaging nearly double the pay and benefits of a private sector employee doing the exact same job.

The Greeks are showing us where we are headed and the idiot leftists in this country refuse to acknowledge it.

   Washington, DC
Category:     Legal
Apply By:     December 1, 2010
Description:    

The Legal Department of the Service Employees International Union has openings for law fellows, starting in September 2011. The SEIU Law Fellowship Program was established to expose recent law graduates to legal work within an international union and offers an excellent opportunity for new lawyers to work with experienced union-side lawyers on a variety of cutting-edge issues related to the advancement of workers’ interests.

SEIU's new agreement with "The Terminator".........

Here are some of the major provisions of the new agreement:

1. The agreement provides new guarantees that workers represented by Local 1000 can only be laid off when their departments are eliminated or when the entire office or facility where they work is shut down.
So everybody is still employed, even if they don't need ya! Got it! In other words, if there are 10 employees, it only takes 2 to run the bureaucracy, the other 8 get to sponge off the government and sit on their collective butts!

2. The new contract reduced the governor's demand for two unpaid furlough days per month, which equaled a 9.2 percent pay cut, to a temporary reduction of 4.6 percent. As part of the agreement, each worker accrues one personal day off per month that can be used similar to vacation time.
So, ya didn't make a concession at all, right? Or am I readin' this wrong?

3. In another cost-saving feature of the agreement, Lincoln's Birthday and Columbus Day were traded for two personal holidays, which are similar to vacation days. State offices will be open for normal business and employees will no longer receive premium pay for working on those two days.
Let's see, you don't get the day off, but you can take it off later and get paid! WTF? What the hell is the difference?

4. The agreement excludes sick leave from overtime calculations, but Local 1000-represented employees can still count all other leaves toward the 40 hours in one week that must be worked before overtime pay kicks in.
Anybody you know get to count vacation as part of bein' eligible for overtime?

5. The agreement freezes employee contributions for health insurance at roughly 2008 levels though 2010.
Ya think our's is gonna be frozen?

6. The agreement includes a new career enhancement program with the state initially contributing $1 million.
Another 1 mill down the drain! Like they aren't rapin' 'em enough!

Doncha wish we all had it so rough?

[Ballygrl]

The problem in Greece is mainly related to the strength of their public employees union. They are doing the same thing to the government of Greece that the UAW did to Chrysler and GM.

The only union which is still growing in the US is our own public employee union and now on average, comparing job to job a government worker is averaging nearly double the pay and benefits of a private sector employee doing the exact same job.

The Greeks are showing us where we are headed and the idiot leftists in this country refuse to acknowledge it.

Hi WR!

And ITA!

[ReaganForRushmore]

This is the the reason for the world wide financial crisis. Sovereign Debt Obligations (SDO's) was a mass
marketed program of underwriting a nation's debt backed by the full faith of the issuing government.
Major US players included Citibank, Goldman Sachs, Bear Stearn,Merrill Lynch. All of the major European
players also joined the fray, such as UBS. The premise was that a government, say the Greek government in this example, decide to have a major underwriting of SDO's in order to say, host a major event, in this case, the Olympics. The major players in the SDO's all underwrite their collective portion and everyone is happy, the players make their underwriting profits on the portions sold, the investment arms of the major players marketed the SDO's to major pension and retirement funds as a "safe" investment, and Greece has their Olympics.....

Except....

There is nothing backing up the SDO's. Greece's highly socialized government and their social programs
already have taken everything in the way of spending. Now the Greek government has to cut spending
on social programs or default on the SDO's.

This was the reason for TARP, except it didn't go to US banks, it went to the major SDO underwriters
both nationally and internationally to save them from failing. Some did fail because of their over exposure, Merrill Lynch and Bear Stearns notably.

The kicker is that the US taxpayer is underwriting the entire payout. To the tune of $66 trillion
dollars in SDO exposure internationally. We are about 20 to 25% through the debacle. It is going to
be a bumpy ride , but if we elect conservatives to govern, we'll come through the mess stronger and
better. never elect a Rino or a lib because they are coming for your children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren because they lack fiscal discipline and back bone.

[AllosaursRus]

This is the the reason for the world wide financial crisis. Sovereign Debt Obligations (SDO's) was a mass
marketed program of underwriting a nation's debt backed by the full faith of the issuing government.
Major US players included Citibank, Goldman Sachs, Bear Stearn,Merrill Lynch. All of the major European
players also joined the fray, such as UBS. The premise was that a government, say the Greek government in this example, decide to have a major underwriting of SDO's in order to say, host a major event, in this case, the Olympics. The major players in the SDO's all underwrite their collective portion and everyone is happy, the players make their underwriting profits on the portions sold, the investment arms of the major players marketed the SDO's to major pension and retirement funds as a "safe" investment, and Greece has their Olympics.....

Except....

There is nothing backing up the SDO's. Greece's highly socialized government and their social programs
already have taken everything in the way of spending. Now the Greek government has to cut spending
on social programs or default on the SDO's.

This was the reason for TARP, except it didn't go to US banks, it went to the major SDO underwriters
both nationally and internationally to save them from failing. Some did fail because of their over exposure, Merrill Lynch and Bear Stearns notably.

The kicker is that the US taxpayer is underwriting the entire payout. To the tune of $66 trillion
dollars in SDO exposure internationally. We are about 20 to 25% through the debacle. It is going to
be a bumpy ride , but if we elect conservatives to govern, we'll come through the mess stronger and
better. never elect a Rino or a lib because they are coming for your children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren because they lack fiscal discipline and back bone.

Doesn't frikkin' help when our own government refuses to pass a budget either! I want these asshats in DC to show us a line by line budget! Let the people see what we are payin' for! Let us decide what can be cut! Put it to the voters!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone of these congress critters would have to lay in a truckload of depends!

If that ever happened those sucklin' off the government tit would commit suicide!

[jukin]

So the greeks were not the ones to make socialism work either.

No worry people will keep trying no matter the millions it has killed or the misery it has brought.  Someday, someway, somehow socialism will be made to work.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Albert Einstein

[true_blood]

I like this one!!

blindpig   (1000+ posts)           Tue Sep-14-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. That's a ruling class analysis..
   

What is going on is a crisis of capitalism with the financial sector leaning on government to bail out their sorry, over-reaching asses. Sound familiar? The difference between Greece and the US is that in Greece the working class is organized and ain't gonna take that shit laying down.

Mebbe after the Cat Food Commission is done we will buy a clue and take a few pages from the Greeks.

It's no wonder they call you the "blindpig". You stupid DUmmies!!

[AllosaursRus]

I like this one!!

blindpig   (1000+ posts)           Tue Sep-14-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. That's a ruling class analysis..
   

What is going on is a crisis of capitalism with the financial sector leaning on government to bail out their sorry, over-reaching asses. Sound familiar? The difference between Greece and the US is that in Greece the working class is organized and ain't gonna take that shit laying down.

Mebbe after the Cat Food Commission is done we will buy a clue and take a few pages from the Greeks.

It's no wonder they call you the "blindpig". You stupid DUmmies!!

It really is an insult to blind pigs though. I had one, and she was just as smart as the other ones. As a matter of fact it seems to me she gained more weight! The others felt sorry for her!

[true_blood]

It really is an insult to blind pigs though. I had one, and she was just as smart as the other ones. As a matter of fact it seems to me she gained more weight! The others felt sorry for her!

lol