Author Topic: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions  (Read 3764 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« on: August 31, 2010, 01:57:52 PM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/30/AR2010083005268_2.html

Quote
It wasn't the first time he had derided Obama's faith. In the days leading up to the rally, he characterized the president as an adherent of "liberation theology," which Beck said represents "a perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ as most Christians know it."

To those who embrace it, liberation theology is a means to empower the poor, the weak and politically oppressed. The term became politicized during the 2008 presidential campaign because it is used by Obama's controversial former pastor, Jeremiah A. Wright Jr.

To some, Beck's show of his faith was a calculated political effort to unite religious and social conservatives as the midterm elections approach.

"No Republican is going to win the White House if those two aren't united," said D. Michael Lindsay, a Rice University sociologist who studies evangelical Protestant leaders. "Here's a chance to infuse the tea party with religious rhetoric, and extend an olive branch to those not as engaged with financial issues."

<exerpted>


Balance at link........

doc
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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 05:40:25 PM »
Any mingling of religion and politics raises questions these days.  You'd almost think that our history wasn't being taught in schools anymore....  ::)
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 09:42:41 PM »
Any mingling of religion and politics raises questions these days.  You'd almost think that our history wasn't being taught in schools anymore....  ::)
Yes, but where do us whore-chasin', booze-swillin' conservatives go?

Am I welcome in such circles?

I think it's a fair question because I gather from much of what Mr Beck says that moral failings are what is leading this country into socialism.

This doesn't mean I will disavow conservatism in a fit of self-righteous, self-pitying spite--I'm a conservative, not a libertarian--but if we all met for one big rally then upon its conclusion the leaders said, "Let's go have a Bible study" and I replied, "Thanks, but I'll be down at the titty bar." I get the feeling I would not be invited back to future political rallies.

I can tolerate people of strong moral convictions and I can even admire them to a degree but seldom have they ever found a use for me.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 10:38:10 PM »
Yes, but where do us whore-chasin', booze-swillin' conservatives go?

Am I welcome in such circles?

I think it's a fair question because I gather from much of what Mr Beck says that moral failings are what is leading this country into socialism.

This doesn't mean I will disavow conservatism in a fit of self-righteous, self-pitying spite--I'm a conservative, not a libertarian--but if we all met for one big rally then upon its conclusion the leaders said, "Let's go have a Bible study" and I replied, "Thanks, but I'll be down at the titty bar." I get the feeling I would not be invited back to future political rallies.

I can tolerate people of strong moral convictions and I can even admire them to a degree but seldom have they ever found a use for me.
Well, we might invite you to church with us, come Sunday...

Seriously, I suppose I can't speak for anywhere near everyone, but most of the Christians and conservatives I know really don't care what you do with your own time, unless you're murdering someone or insisting that the government makes you a "protected species" that is a step above the rest.  I'm grateful that most of us are like this, because I have kids that are like you...and they aren't as clean-mouthed when they say so...   :-)
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Offline debk

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 10:55:44 PM »
My son believes in God, and his relationship with God is very important but also very personal to him.

He rarely goes to church, usually for a funeral, wedding, maybe Christmas and Easter. Given a choice, he'd rather celebrate someone's life with a beer and a shot of Jack or Jaeger, than listen to a bunch of prayers or a eulogy.

He's very much a Conservative.

I would venture a guess, that out of all conservatives....if they all met at a rally.... afterwards 30% would go to a Bible study, 30% would go out for a drink and talk about the rally, and the other 30% would go home and watch tv.
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Offline seabelle

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2010, 07:14:43 AM »
My son believes in God, and his relationship with God is very important but also very personal to him.

He rarely goes to church, usually for a funeral, wedding, maybe Christmas and Easter. Given a choice, he'd rather celebrate someone's life with a beer and a shot of Jack or Jaeger, than listen to a bunch of prayers or a eulogy.

He's very much a Conservative.

I would venture a guess, that out of all conservatives....if they all met at a rally.... afterwards 30% would go to a Bible study, 30% would go out for a drink and talk about the rally, and the other 30% would go home and watch tv.

I certainly didn't meet any "Holy Rollers" (the extreme wing of good church going folks) in the entire two days I was there.  Our hotel bar (near the Mall) was a pretty hopping place  :-)   In fact, most meetups from conservative websites.....where at the local bars!  My only regret....I couldn't visit them all  :-)

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2010, 08:27:30 AM »
He could come down off the mountain with stone tablets still warm from the lightning inscribing them, and the Democrat house organ known as the WaPo would think it 'Raises questions.' 
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That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline Zeus

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2010, 09:19:30 AM »
My son believes in God, and his relationship with God is very important but also very personal to him.

He rarely goes to church, usually for a funeral, wedding, maybe Christmas and Easter. Given a choice, he'd rather celebrate someone's life with a beer and a shot of Jack or Jaeger, than listen to a bunch of prayers or a eulogy.

He's very much a Conservative.

I would venture a guess, that out of all conservatives....if they all met at a rally.... afterwards 30% would go to a Bible study, 30% would go out for a drink and talk about the rally, and the other 30% would go home and watch tv.
 

Any sense of piety is for most accounts gone. Catholics still practice some.
It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.

Offline debk

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 10:47:13 AM »
 

Any sense of piety is for most accounts gone. Catholics still practice some.

We're Catholic.

Son has grown up an Episcopalian, as did I.
Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far I've finished two bags of M&M's and a chocolate cake. I feel better already." – Dave Barry

A balanced diet is chocolate in both hands.

Offline vesta111

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 11:15:02 AM »
 

Any sense of piety is for most accounts gone. Catholics still practice some.

I do love this debate--

My EX-MIL was a Southern Baptist----Very critical of me because I smoked and drank booze. How she would ridicule me for being born a Yankee, my accent, my makeup and my choice of friends.

This good religious woman who was oh so proud that she had never had so much as a sip of booze, never smoked or been arrested was most interesting.

She would give me the evil eye when I lit a cigarette or drank a beer.
She detested her youngest sons wife that was to her Yankee born--Kentucky--and a gasp Catholic.  Good Grief both her sons had married Yankees and one was not a Christian, she was Catholic.

 How did she live her life--when I met her she was spending most every night in singles bars looking for husband number 4.

She would bring home men she met that she knew were married and she had a 13 year old daughter in the house.  

This good Christian woman when we lived next door to her on the farm paniced when our friends that had a dark skin come to visit.

She was a piece of work I tell you.  She called me crying when Husband number 4 left her when he realised she was sabotaging his relationship with his daughter.  The child was just 8 years old when she was bit by a rattle snake and spent 2 weeks in the hospital.  Number 4 called her in the hospital and his EX wife to check on her condition and this Good Christian who did not drink or smoke began to remember things she had forgot when the child spent the summer---Giving Dad the finger, breaking stuff in the home?

There is no way after living near her that I  do not distrust those that, first thing out of their mouth is " Have you been saved."?




Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 11:33:30 AM »
So your outlook on Southern Christian was cemented by this single idiot?

My school career was a daily barrage of fights generaly divided along racial lines. Being thinly built I had every incentive to avoid physical contests but those who wanted to show they could easily beat-up someone not of their race went for the easier marks. Yet, I remained smart enough to know these were indiviuals, not races/classes/religions I was dealing with.

Next time you want to show your wisdom you should try finding some first.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Doc

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 12:11:36 PM »
Yes, but where do us whore-chasin', booze-swillin' conservatives go?

Am I welcome in such circles?

I think it's a fair question because I gather from much of what Mr Beck says that moral failings are what is leading this country into socialism.

This doesn't mean I will disavow conservatism in a fit of self-righteous, self-pitying spite--I'm a conservative, not a libertarian--but if we all met for one big rally then upon its conclusion the leaders said, "Let's go have a Bible study" and I replied, "Thanks, but I'll be down at the titty bar." I get the feeling I would not be invited back to future political rallies.

I can tolerate people of strong moral convictions and I can even admire them to a degree but seldom have they ever found a use for me.

Snugs, I believe that you raise an excellent point.  I've long been very skeptical of the influence the "Christian right" has had on the conservative movement for the simple reason that whether the Christians like it or not, the association turns some voters off (it is "exclusive rather than inclusive")........I spoke out on it during the 2007 Republican primaries, when many were all agog about candidates like Mike Huckabee........now.......I have no problems with the bulk of Huckabee's politics, but the fact that he is a Christian minister just turns many conservative voters off that are not particularly religious.

Although I firmly believe that the moral code that Christianity purports to represent should play a guiding role in conservatism, I also believe that the concept of "faith" has absolutely no place in the political dialogue......be guided by the principles of course, but check the "religion" at the door.

I have attended Christian congregations where the pastor has lambasted the attendees about the condition of the country being the result of the citizens "turning away from religion", and I always come away from the experience with a bad taste in my mouth.  Reciprocally, I have heard political candidates tout their "Christian values" as an inducement to garner votes, and I find either position equally distasteful.

Christianity in America has to rise or fall on its own merits, and the strength of its message and actions.  Politicians need to rise or fall on the strength of their demonstrated principles and actions......without dragging religion into the discussion.  This is why I have always found it unwise for conservatives to hang such a substantial portion of their political fortunes on the abortion debate.  Although I find abortion distasteful, it is presently the "Law of the Land", and the conservative movement needs to move past it, and concentrate on issues that will increase our numbers, not further polarize the electorate.  Just like the problem the committed leftists face.....where else do the "pro-lifers" have to go politically?

Back on topic, in other discussions here, I've stated on several occasions that I'm not particularly a fan of Glenn Beck......not necessarily because of his religion, or his position on religious values and politics......I don't like him because he is simply grotesquely wrong on a number of economic and Constitutional issues, and I have another completely different distaste for "Libertarians" of pretty much any stripe.......

Summarizing.....I'm pleased that the event was such a success, and that he managed to get his message out, but I further believe that many were in attendance for reasons that had little to do with Glenn Beck's position on politics/religion, and had much more to do with the fact that he managed to "focus" the anger of a large number of potential voters..........in the final analysis, that is a good thing.

doc
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 12:17:53 PM by Doc »

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 01:29:32 PM »
Summarizing.....I'm pleased that the event was such a success, and that he managed to get his message out, but I further believe that many were in attendance for reasons that had little to do with Glenn Beck's position on politics/religion, and had much more to do with the fact that he managed to "focus" the anger of a large number of potential voters..........in the final analysis, that is a good thing.

doc

Agreed.  I really don't care for Christianity or any other religion in my politics.  Faith is wonderful in its place, but its place is in individual practice, not collective national policy decisions.  Mixing the two always ends up in FUBAR political doctrines like the Divine right of Kings or Herrenvolk.  The Founding Fathers left that shit behind for a reason, and one that was very fresh in their personal experience.
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That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 01:42:32 PM »
Agreed.  I really don't care for Christianity or any other religion in my politics.  Faith is wonderful in its place, but its place is in individual practice, not collective national policy decisions.  Mixing the two always ends up in FUBAR political doctrines like the Divine right of Kings or Herrenvolk.  The Founding Fathers left that shit behind for a reason, and one that was very fresh in their personal experience.
I'm not opposed to people's religion informing their political choices. Hell, it isn't practical to expect otherwise.

If you believe life is sacred from from conception its absurd to expect someone to walk into a voting booth, pull the curtain and say, "Golly, I can't mix religion and politics so I'll vote for the pro-abortionist."

If we divorced religion and politics entirely we wouldn't have had the abolitionist movement.

I know where these folks are coming from and it doesn't bother me but they do seem to say in a certain regard, "You're kind are the problem we're trying to overcome."

Maybe to a certain extent they are correct. Heaven knows children born out of wedlock face a tough life and weigh heavily on society as a whole but sometimes girls just want to pet the bunny and who am I to tell them no.

But even then I think my conservative credentials are fairly solid and I have a fair role to play in opposing mindless liberalism.

I'm not asking for absolution or exoneration or even tolerance but I would point out I have utility and I think I can say that fairly.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Zeus

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2010, 02:02:10 PM »
Christians are a special interest group such as Teachers, environmental groups,Teamsters etc etc and as such have every right to lobby politicians or any voting block they can get to listen to them

It is baffling to me the number of People that agree we need God in our lives but then expend time & energy keeping God out of our lives.


*The preceding Msg was not targeted at any one in particular it was just tossed  out there as part of the discussion
* Zeus is not a paid spokesman for any particular religion or Theological entity.

 :greet:
It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2010, 02:07:36 PM »
MSB, I agree completely on the individual level, of course people's religious views will inform their political decisions, since for many of those decisions there is a moral as well as a temporal consequence.  My problem is with a religion having a collective role policy, beyond the separate moral choices of its individual   adherents.  Religion providing a moral compass is fine; I don't want control of the rudder turned over to it though.

Now, off to the titty bar! 
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.

Offline Zeus

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 02:18:11 PM »
Regarding Glen Beck, I really don't know what to make of the Guy.  Some times he can insightful and informative and at other he boarders on looniness.

As for the Restoring America Rally I think it was needed.  I hope people can maintain the buzz of the rally and effect some serious changing in our country,
It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.

Offline thundley4

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 02:25:01 PM »
Regarding Glen Beck, I really don't know what to make of the Guy.  Some times he can insightful and informative and at other he boarders on looniness.

As for the Restoring America Rally I think it was needed.  I hope people can maintain the buzz of the rally and effect some serious changing in our country,

I wouldn't mind some local rallies popping up around the country in the same way.

Offline Doc

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2010, 02:26:27 PM »
Christians are a special interest group such as Teachers, environmental groups,Teamsters etc etc and as such have every right to lobby politicians or any voting block they can get to listen to them

Absolutely correct.......
Quote
It is baffling to me the number of People that agree we need God in our lives but then expend time & energy keeping God out of our lives.
]

I doubt that many would argue the right to maintain God in our lives should we choose to do so........God in our politics is a different matter entirely, and as DAT aptly stated, has led historically to a great many problems..

I suspect (based admittedly on ancedotal conversations with friends and colleagues over the years) that the attitude that many Christians demonstrate that "It's my way or the highway", increases their resistance to a Christian influence in political matters generically.

As I stated previously, being guided by the strong moral compass of Christian values is an admirable trait in a politician, espousing those values to the exclusion of all others.......does nothing to advance the cause.

doc

Offline Doc

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2010, 02:35:17 PM »
MSB, I agree completely on the individual level, of course people's religious views will inform their political decisions, since for many of those decisions there is a moral as well as a temporal consequence.  My problem is with a religion having a collective role policy, beyond the separate moral choices of its individual   adherents.  Religion providing a moral compass is fine; I don't want control of the rudder turned over to it though.

Now, off to the titty bar! 

Precisely......

doc

Offline Zeus

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2010, 02:51:33 PM »
A couple people have mentioned it yet I fail to understand where they are coming from. Perhaps someone can explain to me the exclusionary aspect of Christianity. The only thing I can see remotely exclusionary in Christianity is that there is But One God and as the 1st commandment states I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.

Offline debk

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 03:03:16 PM »
I watched the rally on the internet on Saturday.

Yes, there were a lot of "Christians" there as speakers. And yes, they were asking, in some cases TELLING, people to walk with Jesus. Some were saying to walk with God.

But I think what I took from it more than anything...was that the Founding Fathers built this country on FAITH...HONOR....AND CHARITY....on all of them ...not just one thing.

Here's what I got out of it...

FAITH....in God, yes...but also in oneself, in one's family and neighbors, in our Country and in our leaders. It didn't necessarily have to be a "Christian" God, but in a Higher Power than ourselves. That there is an Entity above all, that has control. And that we have to have the FAITH in that Higher Power to get us through whatever adversity there is. But even more so, we had to have faith in ourselves to make the right decisions in life. We had to have faith in our families and friends to be there ...to provide aid, comfort, care when we needed it. We had to have faith in our country AND our elected leaders to do what is right for all, not just a few, to protect us from our enemies within and without.

HONOR...to honor God, yes....but also to be honorable ourselves. To honor our families and friends, to honor our Country. Honor is truth and integrity and respect and responsibility. To know what is true, to not lie or twist facts to fit the situation, to stand up for what is just and right. Integrity to not only talk it, but walk it. To not cheat, lie or steal to attain power. To respect ourselves, our family, our teachers, our leaders, our military...OUR COUNTRY. Responsible for our actions...not blame it on someone else. But look at the examples we see everyday! Politicians saying "it ain't my fault!" Teachers who have sex with their student...."it ain't my fault!" Murderers ..."it ain't my fault!" Why should we expect any different....when we daily see our President "it ain't my fault!" and to be fair...Obama isn't the first to do this....just the most obvious.  

CHARITY....not just tithe to a church...but to help someone who needs it. Not just monetarily, either. The elderly couple down the street who have trouble keeping their lawn mowed, snow shovelled, or a ride to the grocery store. The kid from the "wrong side of the tracks" who doesn't have a father worth two cents, and a mother who works all the time....to mentor the kid, teach them right from wrong, teach them that an education is important in order to aspire to be something other than a drug dealer or pimp on the corner. To give not just money, but oneself's time to an organization that needs help, a school, the local pound, a hospital or nursing home, the library.

All of these things ....we, as individuals, a neighborhood, a city, a state, a country, used to do.

When someone's house burned down, neighbors built it back up or built a barn for a neighboring farmer.

When the snow was rooftop high, or a storm had blown buildings down, people got out of their houses and helped each other shovel out, cut down trees, repaired roofs.

Fathers coached Little League, Moms were Girl Scout leaders, bake sales were held for the church choir to get choir robes, for the school to get playground equipment, for someone's sick kid.

We had faith that our elected leaders would do the right thing, not because XYZ company gave more to their campaign or political party than LMNOP. That they were people who truly wanted the job to do the right thing, not because they had more money than they knew what to do with and they wanted even more POWER.

We honored others views, their religion, their right to raise their children properly. We honored our elected leaders because they were worthy. WE HONORED OUR MILITARY, BECAUSE THEY WERE THE ONES WHO WERE WILLING TO DIE TO KEEP US SAFE.

We HAD respect. Not only for ourselves and our country....but we had respect, maybe based in fear, or jealousy or admiration, from other countries.

We took responsibility for our actions, if we didn't ...then there was a parent, a teacher or principal, an employer, judge and jury...who took action to see that we did.

Yes there are individuals who still have all these traits....those of us here. Many of us in the country still do. But we have let those who do not, HAVE CONTROL OVER THOSE OF US WHO DO.

We...as a country....need to go back to regain what has been lost....before it's impossible to get back.


That's what I got out of Saturday's rally.

Just hand over the chocolate...back away slowly...far away....and you won't get hurt....

Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate.

"My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far I've finished two bags of M&M's and a chocolate cake. I feel better already." – Dave Barry

A balanced diet is chocolate in both hands.

Offline Doc

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2010, 03:15:51 PM »
A couple people have mentioned it yet I fail to understand where they are coming from. Perhaps someone can explain to me the exclusionary aspect of Christianity. The only thing I can see remotely exclusionary in Christianity is that there is But One God and as the 1st commandment states I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

Lest we wander off-topic into religion, I'll likely quit while I'm ahead, and let our resident nihilist deal with your question for the most part.......

That said, there are many conservative people of quality and principle that simply don't believe the bolded part for various reasons, and are therefore reluctant for that influence to become a part of the political debate. They would argue that the statement, in and of itself, is exclusionary........

In short, you (Scripturally) answered your own question.........and I'm a Christian, perhaps not by the standards of some, but it isn't up to them to judge.....simply playing the "devil's advocate"......(pun intended)

doc


Offline Zeus

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2010, 03:33:24 PM »
I wouldn't mind some local rallies popping up around the country in the same way.

yeppers, a booster shot of sorts to keep the buzz going.

Many many historians economist and your general run of the mill talking heads espouse the belief that Much of Ronnie Reagan's success as President was he made the people feel good for a change.
It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Beck's Marriage of Politics and Religion Raising Questions
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 04:11:00 PM »
A couple people have mentioned it yet I fail to understand where they are coming from. Perhaps someone can explain to me the exclusionary aspect of Christianity. The only thing I can see remotely exclusionary in Christianity is that there is But One God and as the 1st commandment states I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
I'm not being told to go away. I know I'm invited to church with glad hearts and open arms.

I'm being told I'm the problem. If godless behavior is the problem then I am the problem.

Again, I'm not asking for absolution. I'm saying that as those claims increase and grow louder it seems that my place within the conservative will be less appreciated.

I believe a position that not only accomodates religious conviction but also honors it can be made within the conservative movement. I for one recognize and appreciate the contribution of Christians and Jews to our nation's founding. It couldn't have been done without them. It happened because of them.

But the louder they claim sin is the cause of our nation's ills the more people such as me will be held in low regard. Mr. Beck's movement is in its infancy but as it grows my words will prove truer by the day; not because I'm a prophet among the ungodly but a student of history.

I don't want Mr. Beck to stop speaking or holding rallies but I wonder if the heat of the moment is narrowing his focus.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."