LDS bishop shot to death in California church

[DefiantSix]

LDS bishop shot to death in California church
The Associated Press
Updated Aug 29, 2010 08:59PM

Visalia, Calif. • A Mormon church official was shot dead between services on Sunday, and less than an hour later, the man suspected of the crime also died after a shootout with police.

Clay Sannar, 42, a lay bishop with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Visalia, southeast of Fresno, died after being shot in his office, said Visalia police chief Colleen Mestas.

<snip>

Sannar was the general manager of Soil Basics, a fertilizer company in Visalia, according to the company’s website. He had six children, including a 6-month-old infant.

Ralph Jordan, a church leader, said the suspect walked into the church complex, asked for a leader of the church, and shot Sannar. He seemed to not know Sannar.

“The suspect is not a member of the church,” Jordan added.

LINK

Anybody want to bet me that this guy wasn't hot and bothered over Prop 8? 

[NHSparky]

Anybody want to bet me that this guy wasn't hot and bothered over Prop 8? 

Judging by the comments, teh gheys sure didn't take long to start dancing on the guy's grave.

Another possibility is that the shooter just wanted to get back at Mormons as a way to lash out at Beck, etc.

Either way, there's one less libtard in the world.  And they claim WE'RE the violent ones.

[littlelamb]

What is the shooters DUmmy name

[diesel driver]

Judging by the comments, teh gheys sure didn't take long to start dancing on the guy's grave.

Another possibility is that the shooter just wanted to get back at Mormons as a way to lash out at Beck, etc.

Either way, there's one less libtard in the world.  And they claim WE'RE the violent ones.

Only when we have/need to be.

[ConservativeJoeG]

Is nowhere sacred anymore?  (No pun intended) This is just further proof of how far our values have diminished.  Who shoots a clergy member?

[dutch508]

Is nowhere sacred anymore?  (No pun intended) This is just further proof of how far our values have diminished.  Who shoots a clergy member?

1) Nazis
2) Communists
3) Facsists


that about covers it.

[Eupher]

Is nowhere sacred anymore?  (No pun intended) This is just further proof of how far our values have diminished.  Who shoots a clergy member?

Just for clarification, the victim was a lay person. In the LDS faith, bishops do not have the same kind of credentials as do pastors who attend seminary. Granted, the LDS has a very well defined training system, but bishops are considered lay "clergy".

I worked with a guy who was an LDS bishop. He did it in his off time.

Still, your point is valid. Murder is murder and especially heinous when we bring it into a place of worship - ANY place of worship.

[thundley4]

Still, your point is valid. Murder is murder and especially heinous when we bring it into a place of worship - ANY place of worship.

In Islam murder comes from the place of worship.

[ConservativeJoeG]

In Islam murder comes from the place of worship.

Valid point. 

[Eupher]

In Islam murder comes from the place of worship.

I understand your point, but not all mosques house murderers. Where and when that kind of thing occurs, all bets are off. You have to do what you have to do to protect yourself and that doesn't take into account location.

If there's a punk holed up in a mosque sniping away at people, a well-placed RPG round would take care of that problem -- and too bad about "collateral damage".

[Godot showed up]

I understand your point, but not all mosques house murderers. Where and when that kind of thing occurs, all bets are off. You have to do what you have to do to protect yourself and that doesn't take into account location.

If there's a punk holed up in a mosque sniping away at people, a well-placed RPG round would take care of that problem -- and too bad about "collateral damage".

But the majority of mosques are terrorist-recruitment centers.

MORRIS: Yes, I don't know, Laura. That's a question for a shrink, not for a political adviser. He's out of his mind for doing it.

But the point I want to make is that the Center for Security Policy, run by Frank Gaffney, did a study of 100 mosques in the United States. Twenty of them were religious institutions where Sharia law was not present, and nobody talked about it. They talked about worshiping God and loving God. And those are great. I wouldn't mind if you have one right on Ground Zero itself. [Godot would]

The other 80 were Sharia institutions, which is what this mosque is going to be, essentially a law school to study Sharia law and spawn adherence and devotees. The reason the radical Muslim community is so anxious for this thing to be built is because they want to counter the assimilationist tendencies of Muslims in the United States.

And Sharia=radicalism=terrorism. I tried to find Gaffney's survey, but couldn't, but see no reason not to take Morris at his word about the survey. Assuming that the mosques were randomly selected, that means fully 80% of all mosques are terrorist-recruitment centers.



Sorry, veered off-topic. The shooter's name is Kenneth James Ward. Still not much more, but I did think right away of these two lines from "The Fast and the Furious":



Dom: Brian Earl Spilner. Sounds like a serial killer name. Is that what you are?
Brian: Nah, man.

[Celtic Rose]

VISALIA -- The Modesto man accused of gunning down a church leader Sunday had a history of mental illness and often expressed hatred toward the Mormon church, court documents and interviews show.

Kenneth James Ward, 47, came to the attention of Modesto police several times from 1998 to 2004. On one occasion he threatened to kill a Mormon bishop, the city's police chief and police officers, according to court records.

Family members on Monday described those episodes as exceptions. Mike Ward, 44, of Bakersfield said his brother was "a lovable guy" who was not violent -- as long as he kept taking the medications that controlled his mental illness.

It seems that Prop 8 may not have been the motivation, he may have just been crazy

Link

[Eupher]

But the majority of mosques are terrorist-recruitment centers.

And Sharia=radicalism=terrorism. I tried to find Gaffney's survey, but couldn't, but see no reason not to take Morris at his word about the survey. Assuming that the mosques were randomly selected, that means fully 80% of all mosques are terrorist-recruitment centers.

I fully realize there's a lot of antipathy toward ALL of Islam, and to honest, I share some of that myself. I just don't trust the bastards. Not any of them - especially after 9/11 and the bullshit that's going on in the UK and that we're starting to see here.

That said, I'm absolutely not convinced that mosques automatically inhabit murderers. That's the premise here, not whether or not mosques are terrorist recruitment centers.

Not all mosques house murderers. Straw men are not allowed in this discussion. For now, at least.

[Godot showed up]

I fully realize there's a lot of antipathy toward ALL of Islam, and to honest, I share some of that myself. I just don't trust the bastards. Not any of them - especially after 9/11 and the bullshit that's going on in the UK and that we're starting to see here.

That said, I'm absolutely not convinced that mosques automatically inhabit murderers. That's the premise here, not whether or not mosques are terrorist recruitment centers.

Not all mosques house murderers. Straw men are not allowed in this discussion. For now, at least.

No straw man here at all. I never raise straw men.  Not saying that they all house murderers, any more than I would say that military recruitment posts house many actual soldiers. But do we want enemy military recruitment posts within our country? Did we allow bundists to operate in the US after we were officially at war with Nazi Germany?

[Eupher]

...Not saying that they all house murderers...snip

Thank you for your clarification. The rest of your post was beyond the scope of the issue and the refutation I originally made.

You said:

In Islam murder comes from the place of worship.

The implication being, of course, that Muslims foster and practice murder within their houses of worship irrespective of faith. You made such a statement slamming Islam when we were discussing murdering people inside a house of worship.

Claiming that Muslims foster and practice murder within their houses of worship would be absurd on its face. That's MY point.

[Godot showed up]

Thank you for your clarification. The rest of your post was beyond the scope of the issue and the refutation I originally made.

You said:

The implication being, of course, that Muslims foster and practice murder within their houses of worship irrespective of faith. You made such a statement slamming Islam when we were discussing murdering people inside a house of worship.

Claiming that Muslims foster and practice murder within their houses of worship would be absurd on its face. That's MY point.

That's your opinion of the scope of the posts. You may think you have the last word on what "scope" is, but you don't, and you can snip all you like and write, in different words, "that's all it's about because that's the way it is" and it still won't be just about what you want it to be.  Your refutation--which was in no wise a refutation, or rather, was so only in your mind--required a broader and deeper elaboration from me if you were to be corrected. As I did correct you.

Excuse me, but where did I write your supposed quote of my words, from which you derived an implication? I'm not going to write it here, lest you quote it and use this post as your source material, but I'm talking about the sentence in a quote box immediately following the words "You said". Please show me this post. I know how I write, and I know that's not my writing style. And you were accusing me of setting up straw men? You're attributing words to me that I've never written and drawing implications; if that doesn't meet the definition of straw man, nothing does. Of course it's absurd on it's face to claim that murder is parcticed in mosques, and I never wrote one thing to suggest or imply that; however, you are absolutely correct in your conclusion that I am asserting that murder of infidels--among those who are recruited for active terrorist duty--is fostered within mosques, and there is nothing absurd on its face about that claim. It is absurd to claim the opposite.


It was exactly on point for me to write that most mosques don't house actual murderers, and yes, most mosques, if I draw my conclusions from Gaffney's survey, are recruiting posts--and thus forward bases--of the enemy. That was my point, and I don't know what your scope of argument is, but that's mine. You aren't going to limit me to what you consider to be material worthy of discussion based on your imperial determinations.

[Godot showed up]

Quote from: Godot showed up on Today at 02:02:43 pm
...Not saying that they all house murderers...snip

Thank you for your clarification. The rest of your post was beyond the scope of the issue and the refutation I originally made.

You said:


Quote
In Islam murder comes from the place of worship.

The implication being, of course, that Muslims foster and practice murder within their houses of worship irrespective of faith. You made such a statement slamming Islam when we were discussing murdering people inside a house of worship.

Claiming that Muslims foster and practice murder within their houses of worship would be absurd on its face. That's MY point.

Just to be absolutely clear--here is your post in its entirety--now please show me where I ever, preceding your post of 02:02:43 pm, wrote the bolded material in the box, which you attribute to me, not including this quotation itself (which was a cut and paste only, in any case).

[cavegal]

 

[NHSparky]

Is nowhere sacred anymore?  (No pun intended) This is just further proof of how far our values have diminished.  Who shoots a clergy member?

Keep in mind, that Scott Roeder shot George Tiller in a church, but that it was immediately denounced by all Christians.  Regardless of the motive, there is simply a line which cannot be crossed.

[Eupher]

I hosed up, Godot. It was thundley4's post, not yours. My apologies.

My point still stands, however. As much as I loathe Islam, the average mosque is not a house of murderers.

[Eupher]

Godot:

I am asserting that murder of infidels--among those who are recruited for active terrorist duty--is fostered within mosques, and there is nothing absurd on its face about that claim. It is absurd to claim the opposite.

Sounds just a wee bit paranoid there. I'll concede that the entire Islamic faith is based on supremacy over infidels, but I reject the notion that every stinkin' mosque on the planet is "fostering murder". That's pure fantasy. Or paranoia. Take your pick.

[Godot showed up]

Godot:

Sounds just a wee bit paranoid there. I'll concede that the entire Islamic faith is based on supremacy over infidels, but I reject the notion that every stinkin' mosque on the planet is "fostering murder". That's pure fantasy. Or paranoia. Take your pick.

I did not write that every mosque on earth is fostering murder. I wrote that a very high percentage of mosques--well over 50%--are doing so. If recruiting terrorists to wage violent jihad on innocent people isn't "fostering murder," what is it? You can call it what you like.

You can reject the truth and name it paranoia, if that pleases you. That's willful self-delusion or disingenuousness for disingenuousness' sake. Take your pick.

I'm glad, though that we agree--and I recall that we did so agree from other posts--on the nature of Islam, in bold above. Now ask yourself: if the religion/political doctrine is inherently violently supremacist, then exactly why does it seem so fantastical to you to deduce--even absent empirical evidence, of which we have mountains--that their places of worship indoctrinate their adherents accordingly, and with directed purpose? In light of that nature, the fantasy would be to imagine that Islam is as we agree it is--violent and bigoted--and that its places of worship preach a diametrically opposed message of tolerance, peace, universal  brotherhood, and love.

[Godot showed up]

I hosed up, Godot. It was thundley4's post, not yours. My apologies.

My point still stands, however. As much as I loathe Islam, the average mosque is not a house of murderers.

Oh, missed this. Ok. We all make this mistake on occasion.

And my point still stands. The average mosque is a recruiting post for jihadist terrorists. That does not mean that every congregant is a terrorist, obviously. It does mean that they should be shut down, though, as enemy bases. However, my other point, that even the majority of "normal" Moslems are drenched daily in sermons of infidel-hatred, also still stands. For me, if not for you.

[Eupher]

I did not write that every mosque on earth is fostering murder. I wrote that a very high percentage of mosques--well over 50%--are doing so. If recruiting terrorists to wage violent jihad on innocent people isn't "fostering murder," what is it? You can call it what you like.

You can reject the truth and name it paranoia, if that pleases you. That's willful self-delusion or disingenuousness for disingenuousness' sake. Take your pick.

I'm glad, though that we agree--and I recall that we did so agree from other posts--on the nature of Islam, in bold above. Now ask yourself: if the religion/political doctrine is inherently violently supremacist, then exactly why does it seem so fantastical to you to deduce--even absent empirical evidence, of which we have mountains--that their places of worship indoctrinate their adherents accordingly, and with directed purpose? In light of that nature, the fantasy would be to imagine that Islam is as we agree it is--violent and bigoted--and that its places of worship preach a diametrically opposed message of tolerance, peace, universal  brotherhood, and love.

I simply think you've been reading too much of Frank Gaffney. And others just as bent on intrigue, murder and drama read too much into Scott Ritter and the rest of the UN tainted turds/pedophiles. Each of these guys has their perspective based on their own agendas and each is supported by those who worship the ground they walk on. Meh. I'm not so certain about either.

Your "mountain" of empirical evidence that you cite, even in your post, is completely anecdotal at this point. And your term "indoctrination" can easily be interpreted as worshipful study.

In my own mind, I'm making a distinction between Islamists - those who hate the West, and particularly the US - and are bent on our destruction, and Muslims. Islamists are those who aren't into religion and indeed bastardize it in the name of their hatred and quest for power, while most Muslims simply have adopted the religion that they were brought up with - just like you and me.

Not all Muslims are Islamists, yet to read your caterwauling and breast-beating, they're around every corner just waiting to pounce. I'm not convinced of that. Yet.

Like I said - I don't trust the bastards. But I'm not willing to adopt the viewpoint that every mosque is an actual center for their hatred.

We've strayed far from the topic, which really had more to do with the slaying of an LDS bishop. It might be time to return to that. Start a new thread if you like.

[Godot showed up]

I simply think you've been reading too much of Frank Gaffney. And others just as bent on intrigue, murder and drama read too much into Scott Ritter and the rest of the UN tainted turds/pedophiles. Each of these guys has their perspective based on their own agendas and each is supported by those who worship the ground they walk on. Meh. I'm not so certain about either.

Your "mountain" of empirical evidence that you cite, even in your post, is completely anecdotal at this point. And your term "indoctrination" can easily be interpreted as worshipful study.

I could just as easily say you haven't been reading enough of Gaffney, Hansen, Memri, and the like, and listening too much to those who downplay the degree of the threat.

By "mountains of evidence" I wasn't referring only (in the post you quoted) to Gaffney's survey. It's quite out in the open in Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, etc., not hidden at all. I could post much more if you want.

As you say, it's time to let the thread resume its proper course/topic.