Ho-Lee Shyt! 60-plus percent of DU sees Obama as imperialist fascist

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

IassaFTots' favorite idiot slut:

Nuclear Unicorn  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Sat Aug-07-10 06:00 PM
Original message
Poll question: Obama and the US military, tools of fascist corporate imperialism?
   
I'm well aware of the US having played dirty in Latin America. El Salvador, Iran-Contra, Pinochet, the CIA, Bolivia. I know it, I got it.

I also know fascism is when the national economic engine of corporations and businesses become inextricably linked to a hyper-militarized government.

And imperialism is when a state seeks to expand its control over other in an effort to feather its own nest.

That being said, is Obama REALLY a corporate imperialist fascist?

Whenever the US, with Obama as president, seems to do ANYTHING in Latin America many here rail against US imperialism. But the US can't be imperialist unless Obama directs it to be because he is the commander in chief of the US military. The US military can do nothing unless Obama orders it or at least gives his OK.

And congress has to support him by giving him the funding. And they have oversight committees such as the one Speaker Pelosi has been a part of for many years.

Either Obama is in charge or he isn't. Either Obama is aware of what is going on or he isn't. Some may not like the fact we are involved in Latin America in any capacity but I seriously, seriously doubt, Obama is an imperialist/puppet. Whatever my other complaints may be, i.e. no public option, no equality for LGBTs, to claim our president is part and parcel of every accusation leveled against his predecessor seems highly suspect on its face.

Poll result (18 votes)
a Commander in Chief who knows what he's doing and doing what's best   (3 votes, 17%)
he sincerely means well but is making the wrong choices   (2 votes, 11%)
he's clueless/powerless, things move without his consent   (0 votes, 0%)
others snap their fingers and he dutifully obeys   (2 votes, 11%)
he is part and parcel of the imperialist ambitions of fascist corporatists   (11 votes, 61%)

mix  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Sat Aug-07-10 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Call it what is--capitalism, not fascism--and you might have an argument. nt

   

Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Sat Aug-07-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes, well, I'm not sure how much argument there is
   
I'm supposing fascism is a militarized version of capitalism.

Theoretically, capitalism could survive without being militarized. Example, NetFlix is kicking the crap out of video rental stores and even cable companies and they've done it without killing a single competitor (that I know of).

Of course I'm stunned that as of this writing over half of DU assumes our president leads a corporate, fascist empire.

If this is the case where are the calls for impeachment? Where is the effort to stymie his every agenda policy so as to reduce his power at every turn?

I mean--my God (and I'm an atheist)--if he's an imperialist we should be along side Limbaugh in hoping he fails.

I don't understand anything anymore.

"Theoretically"?

Stupid bitch, tell us all about demilitarized socialism.

Aramchek  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Sat Aug-07-10 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Glenn Beck, is that you?

   

Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Sat Aug-07-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. If I may point out:
   
I'm the one absolutely dumb struck that so many people are accusing Obama of being a fascist.

At worst I think SOME of Obama's military policies are misguided but I have no doubt his intentions are for the best with a deep and abiding respect for humanity as a whole. Maybe he's politicking too much on DADT and such but I don't presume for half an instant that he's an imperialist in truck with corporatists that would overtake the world if given half a chance.

Like I said in the OP, I'm not 100% happy but policy discontent is a BIG leap from accusing him of being a fascist.

From the looks of this poll a solid percentage of DU inhabitants are the ones who would side with Beck (and yet Beck is vilified on DU).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8897994

[miskie]

So, the primitives are right for the wrong reasons...

fas·cism
Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

So lets go through the checklist...

exalts nation and race above the individual....
between the cries of RACIST !!! everytime something goes wrong for Obama, as well as his need to benefit specific races and classes of people at the expense of others is well known. Race does matter, and it shouldn't. Political and economic class matters, and it shouldn't.

severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
Well - some of the biggest industries in the USA are under government control as are the biggest banks and insurance agencies. Obamacare has put medicine under government oversight. Obama is doing his best to negate states rights, his administration selectively enforces laws based upon which people those laws support. He directly undermines his  opposition to do it, using things that don't relate such as the commerce clause to make things happen against the will of the people.

a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader
Other than being officially labeled a 'dictator', Obama has centralized nearly everything.

He has appointed 'Czars' over industries he has yet to fully capture who report directly to him, bypassing normal chain of command.

Obama has used the court to violate separation of powers - to force by decree laws and actions on issues that the people would or have voted against (Arizona, California, mandated health insurance purchases etc.)


So primitives -- you are correct - but for the wrong reasons.

[Carl]

This notion that Fascism is somehow a relationship of business and government is a definition plucked out of their own butts and regurgitated back and for to each other so now they think it is true.
They need to do research but I suppose since that would show them to always be wrong they refuse.

[miskie]

This notion that Fascism is somehow a relationship of business and government is a definition plucked out of their own butts and regurgitated back and for to each other so now they think it is true.
They need to do research but I suppose since that would show them to always be wrong they refuse.

They don't even need to go any further than a dictionary to realize they are wrongly interpreting fascism.

The quote above is from Merriam Webster's - maker of dictionaries, thesauruses, atlases, etc. 

MW's has no political agenda, so the way the word is defined above is exactly what it means. The primitives know this - they just don't like it, so they invent their own reality.

[AllosaursRus]

The Fouding Fa

This notion that Fascism is somehow a relationship of business and government is a definition plucked out of their own butts and regurgitated back and for to each other so now they think it is true.
They need to do research but I suppose since that would show them to always be wrong they refuse.

The Founding Fathers were all propagandists! Just ask 'em!

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Poll result (41 votes)
a Commander in Chief who knows what he's doing and doing what's best   (12 votes, 29%)
he sincerely means well but is making the wrong choices   (2 votes, 5%)
he's clueless/powerless, things move without his consent   (0 votes, 0%)
others snap their fingers and he dutifully obeys   (3 votes, 7%)
he is part and parcel of the imperialist ambitions of fascist corporatists   (24 votes, 59%)

wow

They really believe he's an imperialist. Not simply misguided or a puppet but an outright fascist in the mold of GWB.

wow

[Allentownjake]

As a former primitive, I'm pretty sure that 90% of the fortune 500 companies in the country go bankrupt tomorrow if the federal government stopped making transfer payments to them.

[diesel driver]

As a former primitive, I'm pretty sure that 90% of the fortune 500 companies in the country go bankrupt tomorrow if the federal government stopped making transfer payments to them.

Then, let's try it and see.

While we're at it, I bet the FedGov would feel it in the wallet if the Fortune 500 companies stopped their payment of "contributions" (aka TAXES).

BTW, just for the record, corporations DO NOT pay taxes.  WE pay ALL the taxes.  Corporations merely collect them for the FedGov.

[Allentownjake]

wow

They really believe he's an imperialist. Not simply misguided or a puppet but an outright fascist in the mold of GWB.

wow

There hasn't been that much of a shift in policy.

1) Foreign Wars.  Bush was moving out of Iraq anyway at the end of his term.  Most of the troop withdrawal plans were drawn up by Secretary Gates to begin with.  BTW who is still Defense Secretary

2) Banking/Financial reform.  This idea this was just some happenstance mistake and they are all good businessman seems to be the mood still with both administrations.  I think Bush said they got a little drunk, Barack said they got a little irresponsible.  Lending is a two way street.  It is the responsibility of the borrower to take on debts they can payback, it is the responsibility of the lender not to give people loans they can payback or take the loss.

3) Healthcare, the current health care proposal of a partnership with the Insurance companies was what came out MA.  The Bush family were more favorable to Romney than they were to Mr. McCain.

4) Immigration.  I think you can take the Bush position and the Obama position on immigration and photo-copy it.

[Allentownjake]

Then, let's try it and see.

While we're at it, I bet the FedGov would feel it in the wallet if the Fortune 500 companies stopped their payment of "contributions" (aka TAXES).

BTW, just for the record, corporations DO NOT pay taxes.  WE pay ALL the taxes.  Corporations merely collect them for the FedGov.

Corporate taxes are 222 billion of the federal budget.   They would barely blink.

[USA4ME]

This is not surprising.  When you have a group of individuals who believe that corporations are out to "rule the world," then you're automatically dealing with those whose understanding of current economic conditions, and economics in general, is built on a false foundation.

.

[docstew]

There hasn't been that much of a shift in policy.

1) Foreign Wars.  Bush was moving out of Iraq anyway at the end of his term.  Most of the troop withdrawal plans were drawn up by Secretary Gates to begin with.  BTW who is still Defense Secretary

2) Banking/Financial reform.  This idea this was just some happenstance mistake and they are all good businessman seems to be the mood still with both administrations.  I think Bush said they got a little drunk, Barack said they got a little irresponsible.  Lending is a two way street.  It is the responsibility of the borrower to take on debts they can payback, it is the responsibility of the lender not to give people loans they can payback or take the loss.

3) Healthcare, the current health care proposal of a partnership with the Insurance companies was what came out MA.  The Bush family were more favorable to Romney than they were to Mr. McCain.

4) Immigration.  I think you can take the Bush position and the Obama position on immigration and photo-copy it.

So, how does that work when the ACLU, ACORN, and DOJ are threatening lawsuits for banks not lending to those who can't afford it?

[Allentownjake]

This is not surprising.  When you have a group of individuals who believe that corporations are out to "rule the world," then you're automatically dealing with those whose understanding of current economic conditions, and economics in general, is built on a false foundation.

.

Depends on your definition of a corporation.  What does GE make anymore?  A corporation exist to make a profit.  If it was legal a corporation would make a profit doing whatever is profitable.  Some make a profit on various illegal activities.  There is plenty of evidence that many of the banking players in Manhattan are doing their best to avoid AML regulations to take money from drug lords.

Now, if you want to go back in time.  Corporations were generally highly regulated entities at the beginning of this country, given limited lifespans etc.

The strength of the corporation is it is a legal entity that shields those who manage it and invest in it from liability from its actions.

Therefore, you allow the people who run and invest in a corporation to escape consequences from the entity's actions.

Now do you want to talk to me about personal responsibility.

BTW since letting accounting firms have limited liability, has the auditing got better or worse  

[Allentownjake]

So, how does that work when the ACLU, ACORN, and DOJ are threatening lawsuits for banks not lending to those who can't afford it?

Absolute insanity. Of course, the ownership society was not a democratic idea.  Not surprised it is still being pursued though.

[USA4ME]

What does GE make anymore?

In what business would you descibe GE as being?  IOW, what kind of company are they?

.

[thundley4]

What kind of business would you descibe GE as being?  IOW, what kind of company are they?

.

One that is sucking up to the Obama administration in the hope of making huge profits off of alternative energy programs from the government.

[USA4ME]

One that is sucking up to the Obama administration in the hope of making huge profits off of alternative energy programs from the government.

You gave a better answer than AJ would.  At least it touched on what they own that they hope to use to make money.

I'd almost like to like the guy, but he says so much non-sense trying to sound smart that it ruins it for me.  Add to that asking personal questions about my finances, which he has no business even inquiring about, and I've lost interest.

GE is a leasing company.  They own more patents than any other company, and they lease those patents to other companies in order for them to manufacture goods, often in buildings owned by GE which the companies also lease from them.  I don't know what other people call it, but I call a company that does that a leasing company.  There's no way in 10,000 years that AJ would have ever come up with the term "leasing company" when referencing GE and what business they are in.

This is why I, as a conservative, grow weary of dicussing the intricate details of building modern day skyscrapers with liberals who don't even know how to open a can of Lincoln Logs.  Better for me to not respond and just let them rattle on about whatever they've convinced themselves to be true.

.

[docstew]

Absolute insanity. Of course, the ownership society was not a democratic idea.  Not surprised it is still being pursued though.

The ownership society was not a democratic idea?  Those threatened lawsuits were the direct result of the passage of the Community Reinvestment Act under Carter and amendment under Clinton.  Banks would make loans to avoid the lawsuit, knowing they were going to lose money.  Then Fannie and Freddie started buying those bad loans, and the banks happily sold them to get some return on the investment in the bad loans.  Who ran Fannie and Freddie?  Democrats, usually, including one of Barney Frank's boyfriends (how's that for a conflict of interest?).

[PatriotGame]

In what business would you descibe GE as being?  IOW, what kind of company are they?

.

Simply (above the understanding of your room temperature IQ), GE is an EVIL multinational corporation that makes shit. Such as 0bama's dream world green energy windmills, and nuclear reactors, and light bulbs, and appliances. Oh and don't forget their financial services with their "predatory" lending practices.
DUmmy...

[PatriotGame]

As a former primitive, I'm pretty sure that 90% of the fortune 500 companies in the country go bankrupt tomorrow if the federal government stopped making transfer payments to them.

Naw, you're still a DUmmy. Once a DUmmy, always a DUmmy. Your sub-zero IQ allows for nothing else. People like you do not evolve. You may molt once in a while but walking up-right is the best you will ever do.

[PatriotGame]

Absolute insanity. Of course, the ownership society was not a democratic idea.  Not surprised it is still being pursued though.

Well, sell all of your shit then - car, computer, porn DVD's, hovel, clothes...prove yourself, DUmmy.

[PatriotGame]

Simply (above the understanding of your room temperature IQ), GE is an EVIL multinational corporation that makes shit. Such as 0bama's dream world green energy windmills, and nuclear reactors, and light bulbs, and appliances. Oh and don't forget their financial services with their "predatory" lending practices.
DUmmy...

Sorry USA4ME - that was directed at jake-the-jerk, not you!

[Allentownjake]

Well, sell all of your shit then - car, computer, porn DVD's, hovel, clothes...prove yourself, DUmmy.

In the wake of the recession of 2001, this was Bush's idea.  This housing crisis was Bush trying not to take the medicine in the wake of the Tech Bubble collapse.  Granted, I don't think Bill Clinton was much better economically as he was the one who set the conditions for the Tech blow-up in the first place with the repeal of Glass Steagall.

So we created a housing bubble, there was plenty of democratic support in this. 

We can point fingers all day, however I find it odd, conservatives support Bush's policies economically from 2001-2009.

[Allentownjake]

Naw, you're still a DUmmy. Once a DUmmy, always a DUmmy. Your sub-zero IQ allows for nothing else. People like you do not evolve. You may molt once in a while but walking up-right is the best you will ever do.

Yes, yes, yes, I'm an idiot, you have access to all the truth in the world.  My IQ is sub-zero, anything else?

Here is the deal, when you start insulting the person you are debating, you already lost, you are just puffing your own ego after that point.

[Allentownjake]

One that is sucking up to the Obama administration in the hope of making huge profits off of alternative energy programs from the government.

That and their financial services sector which was a majority of revenues is bankrupt and they need to be considered too big to fail to continue to exist.