Mary Magdelene

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

NOTICE: Leave Dan Brown and his bullshit out of this; he's an idiot. If you bring his shit into my thread I'll call you an idiot too.

Was she a prostitute?

Scripture seems ambiguous but it does say unequivocally that 7 demons were exorcised from her.

Was she an adultress/lover of married men?

That might seem to explain the demons as I cannot imagine demons being allowed to takeover a person who was pious.


It seems odd that modern scholarship races to accept every apocryphal utterance as--well--gospel truth, but when the Christian community has for nearly 1500 years maintained that Jesus relieved Mary of 7 demons as well as a tremendous burden of sin the scholars revolt at the concept that Mary was a sinner.

If she wasn't a sinner, OK, let the record be corrected. However, do we reject 1500 years of recieved tradition for the latest scraps from some cave when the next scrap to be found will displace this latest theory?

So, who was Mary of Magdelene before Jesus met her?

[vesta111]

NOTICE: Leave Dan Brown and his bullshit out of this; he's an idiot. If you bring his shit into my thread I'll call you an idiot too.

Was she a prostitute?

Scripture seems ambiguous but it does say unequivocally that 7 demons were exorcised from her.

Was she an adultress/lover of married men?

That might seem to explain the demons as I cannot imagine demons being allowed to takeover a person who was pious.


It seems odd that modern scholarship races to accept every apocryphal utterance as--well--gospel truth, but when the Christian community has for nearly 1500 years maintained that Jesus relieved Mary of 7 demons as well as a tremendous burden of sin the scholars revolt at the concept that Mary was a sinner.

If she wasn't a sinner, OK, let the record be corrected. However, do we reject 1500 years of recieved tradition for the latest scraps from some cave when the next scrap to be found will displace this latest theory?

So, who was Mary of Magdalene before Jesus met her?

Mary of Magdalene, is this a reference as is Jesus of Nazareth.?

Is Magdalene an area or a Sir name or mothers name.?

Interesting question you put up here.

Was she related to one of the Disciples and became an ancient Groupie.?

How old was Mary, 13 perhaps or younger when she began to follow Jesus and his Deciples on their quest.

She was the only female to get anywhere near Jesus so the church had to for some reason make her into a Whore, but if this was so, why would Jesus have allowed her to travel with him unless she was much too young to intice his Deciples.

If Mary were an adult would Jesus have put up with a Whore amoungst his camp??

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Magdelene is the town she hailed from.

There's no reason to assume she was 13 or that she was the only female to sit among the disciples, she was merely the most prominent.

Jesus was already being accused daily of associating with "sinners and publicans" so there is no reason to believe he would be squeamish about associating with a known prostitute, especially if he saw himself on a mission to forgive sinners.

[vesta111]

Magdelene is the town she hailed from.

There's no reason to assume she was 13 or that she was the only female to sit among the disciples, she was merely the most prominent.

Jesus was already being accused daily of associating with "sinners and publicans" so there is no reason to believe he would be squeamish about associating with a known prostitute, especially if he saw himself on a mission to forgive sinners.

Well at least we have a start and point of reference.

Were any of the disciple's from that town also.??    Is it possible that it was she who was saved from being stoned for adultery??? 

I wonder how the Hebrews defined adultery in that age, ?  How did they define a prostitute  ???

Interesting time and era.

[MrsSmith]

I've never heard the claim that Mary Magdalene was not a sinner...only the Mary the mother of Christ was not.  Scripture seems to be quite clear on the fact that Mary Magdalene had sinned, though I'm not sure where the idea came that she was a prostitute or the prostitute that washed Jesus' feet.  As I recall, all that is mentioned under her name, specifically, is the possession.

So far as the issue of adultery, it's my understanding that any woman having any sexual relations with any male not her husband was considered an adulteress.  Even if she were not yet married, her virginity is considered to belong to her future husband, not herself.  Of course, the Bible applies the same standard to the male...however, people are less likely to carry through Biblical standards with males, plus there was no tell-tale for men.


I agree that it is odd that Gospel truth is constantly called into question and found by many to be not factual...while wild ideas put forward in admittedly fictional books or ancient heresy is considered both possible and educational.  People are nothing if not contrary...  

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

I've never heard the claim that Mary Magdalene was not a sinner...only the Mary the mother of Christ was not.  Scripture seems to be quite clear on the fact that Mary Magdalene had sinned, though I'm not sure where the idea came that she was a prostitute or the prostitute that washed Jesus' feet.  As I recall, all that is mentioned under her name, specifically, is the possession.

And this pretty much leaves me at square #1.

So far as the issue of adultery, it's my understanding that any woman having any sexual relations with any male not her husband was considered an adulteress.  Even if she were not yet married, her virginity is considered to belong to her future husband, not herself.  Of course, the Bible applies the same standard to the male...however, people are less likely to carry through Biblical standards with males, plus there was no tell-tale for men.

Not germane to the OP

It is odd that Gospel truth is constantly called into question and found by many to be not factual...while wild ideas put forward in admittedly fictional books or ancient heresy is considered both possible and educational.  People are nothing if not contrary...  

I think it is somewhere between A) they have a thesis to write and you have to come up with something new and B) novelty leads to celebrity.

That's why new books--both for and against--any subject are pretty much crap for the first several decades. I'll guarantee that all the psycho-babble bullshit "Christianity" being used to fill mega-churches these days will be as forgotten as "The Power of Positive Thinking" or the "Name it and claim it" hucksters. Is it too much to pray for Joel Osteen to be purposely driven off a cliff?

[MrsSmith]

Not germane to the OP

Yeah, that's why I didn't quote the OP.  It was in response to vesta.

I think it is somewhere between A) they have a thesis to write and you have to come up with something new and B) novelty leads to celebrity.

That's why new books--both for and against--any subject are pretty much crap for the first several decades. I'll guarantee that all the psycho-babble bullshit "Christianity" being used to fill mega-churches these days will be as forgotten as "The Power of Positive Thinking" or the "Name it and claim it" hucksters. Is it too much to pray for Joel Osteen to be purposely driven off a cliff?

It would help the cause of Christ if those using His name actually were His people.  **sigh**

[Carl]

This is actually the first time I have ever heard the assertion that Mary Magdalene was not a sinner or for that matter that Mary the mother of Jesus wasn`t either.
The only person that ever lived without sin as I was taught was Christ.

I have heard it put forward by some that Mary Magdalene was Jesus wife but that is just an effort to attack the Bible and His work on the cross.

Bible Questions Answered by William Pettingill is a great reference book and this was what was written.

She was called the Magdalene because she came from Magdala.
There is no evidence she was an unchaste woman.

She had been delivered from demon possession (Mark 16:9),but that is no indication that she was immoral

Immoral in this sense being that she was not declared to be a prostitute or adulterer although perhaps possible.
She was a sinful person as we all are though.

[MrsSmith]

This is actually the first time I have ever heard the assertion that Mary Magdalene was not a sinner or for that matter that Mary the mother of Jesus wasn`t either.
The only person that ever lived without sin as I was taught was Christ.

I have heard it put forward by some that Mary Magdalene was Jesus wife but that is just an effort to attack the Bible and His work on the cross.

Bible Questions Answered by William Pettingill is a great reference book and this was what was written.

Immoral in this sense being that she was not declared to be a prostitute or adulterer although perhaps possible.
She was a sinful person as we all are though.

I guess this is a Catholic belief.  It was discussed several months ago...but it may have been on CU, now that I think of it...

[Gratiot]

The only person that ever lived without sin as I was taught was Christ.

+1

[vesta111]

This is actually the first time I have ever heard the assertion that Mary Magdalene was not a sinner or for that matter that Mary the mother of Jesus wasn`t either.
The only person that ever lived without sin as I was taught was Christ.

I have heard it put forward by some that Mary Magdalene was Jesus wife but that is just an effort to attack the Bible and His work on the cross.

Bible Questions Answered by William Pettingill is a great reference book and this was what was written.

Immoral in this sense being that she was not declared to be a prostitute or adulterer although perhaps possible.
She was a sinful person as we all are though.

I understood that Mary the Mother of Jesus was born herself with out original sin. How this came about has never been explained to me. How did Marys Mother the grandmother of Jesus manage to pull that one off.??  Was the grandmother also born without sin.??  Didn't Mary have a sister or two, if so were they also born without original sin ?

Original sin is interesting in itself.  How on earth can a new born baby have committed any sin but being born humane.?  Is it not for man made rules for the most part in different cultures mandate what is sinfull behavior.??

The 10 Commandments are actually the only written in stone we have to attributed directly by GOD.  All cultures have some sort of the original beliefs that try to live by these rules--their Gods may have different names but the rules are so similar as to be  in no way a coincidence.

[MrsSmith]

I understood that Mary the Mother of Jesus was born herself with out original sin. How this came about has never been explained to me. How did Marys Mother the grandmother of Jesus manage to pull that one off.??  Was the grandmother also born without sin.??  Didn't Mary have a sister or two, if so were they also born without original sin ?

Original sin is interesting in itself.  How on earth can a new born baby have committed any sin but being born humane.?  Is it not for man made rules for the most part in different cultures mandate what is sinfull behavior.??

The 10 Commandments are actually the only written in stone we have to attributed directly by GOD.  All cultures have some sort of the original beliefs that try to live by these rules--their Gods may have different names but the rules are so similar as to be  in no way a coincidence.

Mary is considered "full of grace" because her sins were forgiven...just as the sins of all who accept Christ as Savior.  It makes no sense to say she is "full of grace" if she didn't need grace!!  I don't understand why anyone would think differently.   :clueless:



Christ was born without original sin because that sin passes through the father, from Adam on down.  Christ's father was not a child of Adam, so He was born without...and never sinned in life, so He was the One pure enough to pay for all sin.

It is the common belief in Protestantism that babies, while born with "original sin" - or the sinful nature of all humans, are not responsible for their sins until they are old enough to comprehend right and wrong.  Until you know what sin IS, you can't be held accountable for sinning.  Once a human attains an age of understanding sin, and knowing he or she can choose the Light or the Darkness, he or she is at that time responsible for choosing the Light.  Thankfully, our Light is patient and merciful, and will wait until the human in question actually "gets it!!"

[vesta111]

Mary is considered "full of grace" because her sins were forgiven...just as the sins of all who accept Christ as Savior.  It makes no sense to say she is "full of grace" if she didn't need grace!!  I don't understand why anyone would think differently.   :clueless:



Christ was born without original sin because that sin passes through the father, from Adam on down.  Christ's father was not a child of Adam, so He was born without...and never sinned in life, so He was the One pure enough to pay for all sin.

It is the common belief in Protestantism that babies, while born with "original sin" - or the sinful nature of all humans, are not responsible for their sins until they are old enough to comprehend right and wrong.  Until you know what sin IS, you can't be held accountable for sinning.  Once a human attains an age of understanding sin, and knowing he or she can choose the Light or the Darkness, he or she is at that time responsible for choosing the Light.  Thankfully, our Light is patient and merciful, and will wait until the human in question actually "gets it!!"

     Little did I know when I awoke this lovely Sunday morning that you Mrs. Smith would get me to go and get the Bible and reread the story of Mary and Joseph.

Now I am all confused. according to Luke, Mary and John the Baptist were first cousins.

Matthew gives not Marys line of family but Josephs and I find that odd. The Jews trace their ancestry back on the mothers side not the stepfathers.

I need to go slow here, try to visualise the people mentioned and the times they lived in.

I am not sure why Elisabeth, Marys Aunt became pregnant at an advanced age, but Mary when told she would become pregnant as a virgin was told to visit her Aunt to see for herself that God can work miracles.  It was said that when Mary approached her Aunt the baby leaped in her womb.

It would be very interesting to have been there at that time and listened to Mary and her Aunts conversation about what was happening to them and who, what, why how and when.?    Why these two woman, an Aunt and a Niece, were both chosen by God to bare children when both births were considered impossible.

I am looking at this as a TRUE story, trying to put myself in the place of a family member watching and gossiping about family going on's. You know sitting about the town well and having neighbors ask me about Elisabeth's pregnancy at her age and her husband at his age trying to explain hie wife's pregnancy to the good old boys in town.

BTW who were Marys parents.??   Since the family of Joseph was of the royal line and his new wife's Aunt was married to a prominent man, it seems like none of the family's on both sides were poverty stricken.

Poor Joseph, all these inexplicable happenings  in his wife's family, it is no wonder the Church made him a SAINT.

[soleil]

+1

I, too, have always been taught that Jesus was the only one who lived without sin. He was God incarnate so that makes sense. God is perfection. No one else is.

[Zeus]

  The Book of Concord and its contents, the confession of faith for Lutherans throughout the world the second major part of this book (the first being the creeds) is known as the Augsburg Confession ). The AC contains articles of faith and doctrine. In simple words, the AC contains what is true of Holy Scripture. There are twenty-eight of these articles of faith and doctrine

Article 2 Concerning Sin - Furthermore, it is taught among us that since the fall of Adam, all human beings who are born in the natural way are conceived and born in sin. This means that from birth they are full of evil lust and inclination and cannot by nature possess true fear of God and true faith in God. Moreover, this same innate disease and original sin is truly sin and condemns to God’s eternal wrath all who are not in turn born anew through baptism and the Holy Spirit.

Rejected, then, are the Pelagians and others who do not regard original sin as sin in order to make human nature righteous through natural powers, thus insulting the suffering and merit of Christ.

Sin, it is the next biggest topic after the Holy Trinity. Here we are shown that “we are by nature, sinful and unclean.” From birth, and truly from conception. Here it is stated clearly that we are born this way. This was to fight the group known as Pelagians who believed that man was deep down naturally good and could save himself aided by God‘s grace. In other words, these believed that original sin was a falsehood. This could not be more false. We are told in Holy Scripture that man is indeed sinful from the womb (see Psalm 51).

[MrsSmith]

     Little did I know when I awoke this lovely Sunday morning that you Mrs. Smith would get me to go and get the Bible and reread the story of Mary and Joseph.

  Cool!!   

Now I am all confused. according to Luke, Mary and John the Baptist were first cousins.

Matthew gives not Marys line of family but Josephs and I find that odd. The Jews trace their ancestry back on the mothers side not the stepfathers.

  I asked my bible dictionary about this (my husband is an ordained minister) and he said it had something to do with the curse of Jeconiah.  He had been cursed at the time of the exile to Babylon, but the curse was lifted by the second generation, his grandchild Zerubbabel.  I'm sure that there is something to do with prophesies fulfilled by Christ that cause this to need to be mentioned, but my dictionary is still accessing his memory.   

I need to go slow here, try to visualise the people mentioned and the times they lived in.

I am not sure why Elisabeth, Marys Aunt became pregnant at an advanced age, but Mary when told she would become pregnant as a virgin was told to visit her Aunt to see for herself that God can work miracles.  It was said that when Mary approached her Aunt the baby leaped in her womb.

It would be very interesting to have been there at that time and listened to Mary and her Aunts conversation about what was happening to them and who, what, why how and when.?    Why these two woman, an Aunt and a Niece, were both chosen by God to bare children when both births were considered impossible.

I am looking at this as a TRUE story, trying to put myself in the place of a family member watching and gossiping about family going on's. You know sitting about the town well and having neighbors ask me about Elisabeth's pregnancy at her age and her husband at his age trying to explain hie wife's pregnancy to the good old boys in town.

BTW who were Marys parents.??   Since the family of Joseph was of the royal line and his new wife's Aunt was married to a prominent man, it seems like none of the family's on both sides were poverty stricken.

Poor Joseph, all these inexplicable happenings  in his wife's family, it is no wonder the Church made him a SAINT.

Looking at this as history, Joseph does leap out, doesn't he?  He is told to accept a wife that seems to have cheated on him, to start.  How many men would actually believe the baby was conceived by the Holy Spirit?  Then he must take Mary to Bethlehem with him...it makes you wonder just  how this couple was treated at home, for him to decide to haul his very-pregnant wife along.  And to top it off, about the time they're actually doing well in Bethlehem, a bunch of foreigners show up at his door with gifts and then he has to make a run for Egypt!  Once it seems safe to come home...oops, maybe not...off to Nazareth instead...and then when the miracles all start and all this moving about and restarting their lives is about to be explained... Joseph is nowhere to be seen, presumed dead.  Poor guy indeed.  (It does make you wonder if Christ might have been the original "red-headed stepchild.")   

[vesta111]

  Cool!!   
  I asked my bible dictionary about this (my husband is an ordained minister) and he said it had something to do with the curse of Jeconiah.  He had been cursed at the time of the exile to Babylon, but the curse was lifted by the second generation, his grandchild Zerubbabel.  I'm sure that there is something to do with prophesies fulfilled by Christ that cause this to need to be mentioned, but my dictionary is still accessing his memory.   
Looking at this as history, Joseph does leap out, doesn't he?  He is told to accept a wife that seems to have cheated on him, to start.  How many men would actually believe the baby was conceived by the Holy Spirit?  Then he must take Mary to Bethlehem with him...it makes you wonder just  how this couple was treated at home, for him to decide to haul his very-pregnant wife along.  And to top it off, about the time they're actually doing well in Bethlehem, a bunch of foreigners show up at his door with gifts and then he has to make a run for Egypt!  Once it seems safe to come home...oops, maybe not...off to Nazareth instead...and then when the miracles all start and all this moving about and restarting their lives is about to be explained... Joseph is nowhere to be seen, presumed dead.  Poor guy indeed.  (It does make you wonder if Christ might have been the original "red-headed stepchild.")   

As we leave Mary and Elisabeth trying to figure out how to explain all this to their family----

I know Joseph had to have been alive when Jesus was over 30 years old.  At one point he was on a hill side meditating and his mother came looking for him.  When she found him she demanded to know why he was not at home helping his father.

His reply was that he was speaking to his real  father in heaven, or close to that.

I wonder what kind of personal relationship Jesus had with Joseph.  Was Joseph jealous of the attention Mary gave to her son, or was Mary overloaded with other children and did she resent the problems Jesus caused or could cause the family with his out spoken ways.  Don't forget they were under the thumb of Rome and the innocent remark of a young boy could mean death for the intire family.

Poor Joseph, we know he was a carpenter and trained Jesus in the art.  Were they boat builders by any chance, is this how Jesus became acquainted with the fisherman .? 

BTW my Mother at 72 years old  took a tour of the middle east and even now today, says wood was and  is a precious and scarce material .

When did Joseph marry Mary, before she gave birth or after.?  We know Jesus was circumcised in the temple at a little over a week old, his step father had to have married Mary before then.

As you can see I am looking at this as a human, Jesus was half human and his family were prone to have all of the failings of the human race.  From time to time we see some human traits pop up in the life of Jesus, his anger, and his abilities that astounded everyone.

[Doc]

BTW my Mother at 72 years old  took a tour of the middle east and even now today, says wood was and  is a precious and scarce material .

Actually untrue........between 1000 BC, up to the Crusades, most of what is now northern Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon were heavily forested.  True that much of the area inland, from the Jordan river to the Dead Sea was arid, however timber was plentiful in the area, it just required transport.

doc

[vesta111]

Actually untrue........between 1000 BC, up to the Crusades, most of what is now northern Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon were heavily forested.  True that much of the area inland, from the Jordan river to the Dead Sea was arid, however timber was plentiful in the area, it just required transport.

doc

 

Gee Doc, what happend to the forests, climate change perhaps.  This area of the world is thought of as arid, fit only for goats, sheep and camels.

The heat, the unrelenting sun and the  sand storms, the people that had little choice but to either live in walled citys with a good supply of water, or moving about living in tents looking for the oasises along the trade routs from China.

Water was more precious then life,  matter of fact, water was life and still is.

[Doc]

 

Gee Doc, what happend to the forests, climate change perhaps.  This area of the world is thought of as arid, fit only for goats, sheep and camels.

The heat, the unrelenting sun and the  sand storms, the people that had little choice but to either live in walled citys with a good supply of water, or moving about living in tents looking for the oasises along the trade routs from China.

Water was more precious then life,  matter of fact, water was life and still is.

It's obvious that you haven't been to the Middle East........it is true that much of the inland areas are arid, however, water is reasonably accessable (high water table), and agriculture flourishes in many parts of the area, particularly near the Med, and has for centuries.

What you describe is much closer to North Africa than the Middle East, with the exception of deserts in Syria, the Sinai, and northern Saudi.  It's certainly hot in summer, not unlike Arizona here, but in winter the climate is quite temperate, with rainfall in parts of Israel approximating the amount seen in the high plains of the midwest here.

Much of the old forests have been logged off over the centuries, mostly after the Crusades, primarily for shipbuilding and dwelling construction, but you can still go to Lebanon and find millions of acres of "old growth" cedar forests.

doc

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

 

Gee Doc, what happend to the forests, climate change perhaps.

The disciples used to drive a Honda everywhere they went but at least they car-pooled because the Bible says they were all in one Accord.

[IassaFTots]

The disciples used to drive a Honda everywhere they went but at least they car-pooled because the Bible says they were all in one Accord.

OMG.  I almost choked on my gum.   

[Doc]

Vesta.......below is the monthly average high, low, and overall temperatures for Tel Aviv, Israel,as well as rainfall.......does this look like a desert to you?  BTW, it has been known to snow there in January......

Jan 74°F 34°F 54°F 5.50 in. 
Feb 80°F 36°F 55°F 3.50 in.
Mar 87°F 37°F 59°F 2.40 in.
Apr 95°F 42°F 64°F 0.80 in.
May 99°F 47°F 69°F 0.10 in.
Jun 97°F 55°F 74°F N/A in.
Jul 92°F 60°F 77°F N/A in.
Aug 91°F 62°F 78°F N/A in.
Sep 92°F 59°F 76°F 0.00 in.
Oct 92°F 50°F 71°F 1.10 in.
Nov 87°F 43°F 64°F 2.90 in. 
Dec 79°F 36°F 57°F 5.70 

doc

[vesta111]

It's obvious that you haven't been to the Middle East........it is true that much of the inland areas are arid, however, water is reasonably accessable (high water table), and agriculture flourishes in many parts of the area, particularly near the Med, and has for centuries.

What you describe is much closer to North Africa than the Middle East, with the exception of deserts in Syria, the Sinai, and northern Saudi.  It's certainly hot in summer, not unlike Arizona here, but in winter the climate is quite temperate, with rainfall in parts of Israel approximating the amount seen in the high plains of the midwest here.

Much of the old forests have been logged off over the centuries, mostly after the Crusades, primarily for shipbuilding and dwelling construction, but you can still go to Lebanon and find millions of acres of "old growth" cedar forests.

doc

We all get our ideas of the middle east from movies and I tend to remember the South west of America and the miles of sand and scrub.

The rain fall in  Israel I was told was brought in when the  "Plant a tree for Israel' became a great endever for both Jews and Christians.

Mom told me the trees brought the rain, she could not explain it but it seems to have been true.  The land flowered and became fertil under the Jews.

Food crops grew where just sand had been 2 years before. What had been hell on earth became a place to have a good life.

So it drives me nuts to think of the ignorant crazy tribes that want to destroy this, if they could drive the Jews out, the land would go back to sand and dust.

[Doc]

The rain fall in  Israel I was told was brought in when the  "Plant a tree for Israel' became a great endever for both Jews and Christians.

Mom told me the trees brought the rain, she could not explain it but it seems to have been true.  The land flowered and became fertil under the Jews.

I'm gonna go with Snugs and the Honda..........makes more sense........

doc