Author Topic: The liberal vultures are circling.  (Read 53833 times)

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Offline USA4ME

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #300 on: July 06, 2010, 02:36:37 PM »
It's strange, though, that a liberal can come here and tell you that Obama is a pro-corporatist, pro-Empire, pro-rich conservative, and it means nothing to you.  From my perspective, the two parties are virtually indistinguishable now.  Neither party works for the people.  Posters here seem to be completely O.K. with this, and I find that mystifying.

You find it mystifying that others don't see things the way you do and agree with you?

Look, I fully understand how you view things, and summarized it in a way I'm confident you would agree.  That is...

They hold this belief that the left vs. right dichotomy is a tool that the ruling class uses to divides us, and therefore they try to frame things in a top vs. bottom dichotomy.

I have found insufficient evidence to believe that the rich/ruling class are out to lord over the rest of us.  They're too interested in their own lives (miserable lives in some cases, depending on if they allow money to rule their life or not), fighting among themselves, and not organized enough to pull anything like that off.  It has never been left vs. right or top vs. bottom to me; it's always been good vs. evil.  And as it stands, when it comes to morals (especially social morals) and freedom and liberty, liberals have pitched their tents with immorality and Big Brother gov't.  You can forget me and many others ever finding consensus with people who are immoral.  They might win a few battles for the time being, but in the long run they will lose forever.

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« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 03:48:05 PM by USA4ME »
Because third world peasant labor is a good thing.

Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #301 on: July 06, 2010, 02:40:13 PM »
That's it, just keep up with the talkin' points. Your brethren will be proud. I would think a lawyer would at least do some research over corporate tax rates before dismissing them completely.

oh, and liberal = socialist = communist! The only difference is time. Eventually they all come to the same conclusion. People like you tellin' the rest of us what's good for us!

I'm an adult. I don't need or want the likes of you tellin' me anything! Go crawl back under your rock.
I'm the guy your mother warned you about!
 

Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #302 on: July 06, 2010, 03:48:26 PM »
Getting people off welfare rolls is something I've given a lot of thought about. Keeping people dependent on the government is akin to keeping them in slavery. And just as segregation and other racist policies were policies of southern DEMOCRATS so the current serfdom is owned solely by the democratic party. One has to wonder why they would do NOTHING to give them a hand up. The only logical conclusion is that you create a permanent voting block. All you really have to do is keep them ignorant and in fear of the "republican boogie man" and create a situation where they are excluded from the larger society. You have generations where cycles of unwed mothers with multiple children, absent fathers (many involved in gangs), and undereducated continue to repeat themselves. They live in utter hopelessness and extreme poverty having forgotten (or never learned) how to take care of themselves. No one on the left EVER does anything but keep them there. Even Clinton had to be dragged kicking and screaming to welfare reform. Incomes and living standards actually improved, some were even able to move out of their inner city plantations. Now that's going to disappear again so they can come dependent on "Obama money from his stash".

Those of us living in the real world have a system of rewards and punishments. Do a good job at work, you get praised and perhaps a bonus or raise (unless you're a union member, i.e. socialist and you don't have to do a good job to get a raise). Do poorly and you get reprimanded and even fired if you don't improve. Don't pay your rent or house payment you get evicted. Pay your bills on time and you earn a good credit rating which opens the door to other opportunities. Our own choices and not the soft tyranny of a forced dependence determine our station in life. So, here's what I would do:

First you have to eliminate the danger outside so the residents can do more than spend a life looking at the window and ducking stray bullets. Make those rich slum lords, like Obama's best buddy Valerie Jarrett, who get double funds from the government in the form of rent subsidies and rent paid by tenants, pay for specially trained armed guards (sort of like the inner city version of Blackwater). Mow down a some gang members, arrest some more as we did with insurgents in Iraq (because this IS a war zone for those who live there) and the gangs will go away.

Then the residents can leave their apartments and you can teach them to take pride in their surroundings, create a sense of self-confidence and they'll start to see possibilities. No more free rides. Have them clean their neighborhoods, create community gardens, build new playground equipment, paint buildings and make repairs inside. Apprentice some of these people to plumbers, contractors, gardeners so they learn a skill and give them a salary for their work. Have daycare centers run and staffed by residents. This frees other residents to get their GED and learn a skill. The initial cost for these programs might be more than sending out a welfare check but as those people become less dependent on the government and more self-sufficient welfare rolls will be reduced significantly which means more money in everyone's pocket (provided the powers that be don't decide to keep for something else). Anyone who wants to sit on their ass and collect funds will have their checks reduced. No more increased payments for every baby they pop out. Give extra funds for only 2 children...this would be those consequences for ones behavior that the rest of us live with.

Of course there are other things that must be done...merit pay for teachers and such but that should be country wide anyway, along with ending unions for government employees. It's called government SERVICE for a reason and public employee unions hold the citizens hostage...but that's another topic.

Cindie

This is a lot to respond to, but I'd like to give you a thoughtful reply.  I doubt I can give it the time it deserves, however, and I will apologize up front for that.

Whereas you have been thinking about ways to get people off welfare, I have been thinking of ways to keep the rich from stealing from us, driving our country into bankruptcy, destroying our economy, and turning us into a 3rd world nation.  I see that as a much bigger problem, but I will discuss welfare if you like.

Honestly, I am never sure what people mean when they talk about "welfare."  Most of our social services money goes to medicare and madicaid.  Recipients of those benefits aren't ripping anybody off.  Those are just people who got hurt and need medical care.  Their only crime is that they lack sufficient insurance or money to cover their medical bills.  Obama thinks he has addressed this problem by passing a law that, he thinks, will force all Americans to buy insurance.  This is insane, and those of us on the left are furious about it.  Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the solution to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.  Besides which, it's a massive give-away to the health insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industries who will get subsidized federal money so that the poor can buy their products.  I hope that the Republicans repeal this unconstitutional law, but their masters in the health insurance, hospital, and pharmaceutical businesses will never allow it.  They're thrilled to be getting all this federal money.  In any event, the only way to cut our outlays for medical care will be to drive down medical costs, but the health insurance companies and the for-profit hospitals will fight this to the death.  The Democrats have no interest in fighting them, nor do the Republicans.  And Obama gave away the right of the federal government (the largest, single purchaser of pharmaceutical products) to negotiate with pharmaceutical companies for lower prices in exchange for their support of his Health Insurance Company Enrichment Act.  He betrayed the people and sold out to the corporations.  Those of us on the left are furious about this, but I don't see any solution in the current political climate.

If, on the other hand, by "welfare" you mean food stamps, I see no practical way to reduce these rolls.  One in five Americans are now on food stamps, iirc.  That should tell you something.  Lots of big companies (ADM, Kroger, etc.) make a ton of money on food stamps, and I see no way that those companies would allow us to eradicate the program.  Besides which, food is a national security issue.  People will revolt if they have no food.  Ask the French.  LOL.  I see no way to cut food stamp rolls other than to hand out well-paying federal jobs that will then reduce the number of people on food stamps.  Honestly, that might not be a bad idea, so long as we have federally-sponsored day care to allow single-mothers to work as well.

If, however, you mean AFDC (which was passed by Eisenhower), Clinton abolished it, and he wasn't either kicking or screaming when he did it.  He sold out the people for political gain, making those of us on the left furious.  As a result, he was rewarded with re-election in 1996.  If, on the other hand, you mean AFDC's replacement, the nearly-useless TANF, then you should know that you don't need to do anything to get people off those rolls.  TANF benefits last no more than two years, period.  People automatically fall off TANF rolls, and the people who do so are never eligible for TANF again, no matter what their economic situation.  You should also know that TANF eats a miniscule amount of the Federal Budget.  It's next-to-nothing, really. I don't see this as a big enough problem to even address.

I am all for job training programs for the poor.  Personally, I'd like to give lots of unemployed people federal jobs.  There's a lot of work that needs to be done in this country.  Our infrastructure is crumbling.  FDR, Truman, and Eisenhower put people to work fixing these things, and we still enjoy the benefits of their work now.

As much as we might like to legislate "work ethic," this doesn't seem possible.  But we can give people good jobs.  The Federal Government can make them, and we might all benefit from that.  I'd love to see the poor get some skills and some dignity that would allow them to break the cycle of poverty.  But we can't rely on the free market to do this.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

-Laelth

 
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #303 on: July 06, 2010, 04:29:09 PM »
I'd go a little further and make even belonging to a gang a felony, punishable by 15 yrs in the hoosegow! If they renounce gang activity, get an education and a workable skill, let them out. Recruiting youngsters as young as 8, 10, or 12, should be treated the same as pedophilia and carry a life sentence!

Gangs are the biggest threat to inner city society ever since Cosa Nostra invented it in Sicily!

Just like many alleged conservatives--willing to take away our freedoms at the drop of a hat.  Ever heard of freedom of association?  People have the right to "hang out" with whomever they wish in the United States, and no liberal that I know of seeks to restrict this freedom.  Conservatives sometimes make me laugh when they claim to be the "protectors" of our freedoms.  It's really just "their" freedoms that they want to protect--usually the freedom to get filthy rich and the freedom to not be responsible for the misery of their fellow citizens.

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #304 on: July 06, 2010, 04:41:48 PM »
Seriously Laelth?  Prior to having children I was a paralegal (which included worker's compensation law -- the professional claimants) and a casualty adjuster for MVAs.   PI attorneys are the scum of the earth.  The only cases you shy a bit away from are slip and fall unless it is a clear winner, and even then there are those who take them.

I had a slip and fall case.  I took it, and it settled.  I only take cases where there's clear liability.  Whether my client is injured is up to the doctor.  I am not a doctor, so if a doctor tells my client that she is injured, I have neither the right nor the reason to argue that she's not.   

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PI attorneys take on a client, tell them to treat with the doctors/chiros/scam artists these attorneys have nice relationships with, for however long they can milk it (got to love those soft tissue injuries am I right Laelth?), and then they actually pick up the file for first time to call the adjuster to settle it.

I have referred a few clients to doctors--usually because they had no insurance and couldn't get medical treatment.  The only way that my client was ever going to get any treatment was if I promised the doctor that I would pay her bill out of settlement or jury award proceeds.  I have handled soft-tissue injury cases.  Insurance companies discount these because they're just trying to pay out as little as possible, but they're real injuries.  A knife in the gut is a soft-tissue injury, but it hurts a lot, and it can do a lot of damage.  

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You make money based on contingency as it is a formula when you do next to no work, so please give me a break.  On the extremely rare chance it is an injury that is going to trial, the small time putz PI attorney will most likely no longer be handling the file.   Big injuries usually go to big law firms.  I never had any issue paying claims on real injuries -- those claimants don't need attorneys.   

And you, of course, get to decide what injuries are real?  LOL.  If it weren't for me, you'd never pay out a dime.  Insurance companies are in the business to make profit, and without the threat of a lawsuit, they will either pay nothing or next-to-nothing.  Want to talk about scum of the Earth?

And I work a lot, thank you very much.  I don't have a staff of six people to do all the interviews, reaearch, and paperwork for me.  In fact, I have no staff at the moment.  Evidently the PI attorneys you knew were more successful than I.

-Laelth
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Offline Carl

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #305 on: July 06, 2010, 04:43:23 PM »
Just like many alleged conservatives--willing to take away our freedoms at the drop of a hat.  Ever heard of freedom of association?  People have the right to "hang out" with whomever they wish in the United States, and no liberal that I know of seeks to restrict this freedom.  Conservatives sometimes make me laugh when they claim to be the "protectors" of our freedoms.  It's really just "their" freedoms that they want to protect--usually the freedom to get filthy rich and the freedom to not be responsible for the misery of their fellow citizens.

-Laelth

That really doesn`t apply as you state it or if it did then the Mafia would be legal.
We have criminal sanctions now for other organizations that exist to perpetuate crime.
That is the context of the word "gang" here and I am sure you understand that but as most do are trying to be obtuse about it.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #306 on: July 06, 2010, 04:45:27 PM »
...Ever heard of freedom of association?  People have the right to "hang out" with whomever they wish in the United States, and no liberal that I know of seeks to restrict this freedom.

Except when you demean an entire political movement as racist because they don't support you.

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Conservatives sometimes make me laugh when they claim to be the "protectors" of our freedoms.  It's really just "their" freedoms that they want to protect--usually the freedom to get filthy rich and the freedom to not be responsible for the misery of their fellow citizens.

-Laelth
Conservatives believe honest people deserve to be free of the threats of violence and fraud.

You on the other hand voted for the guy who is Bill Ayer's political cabana boy and you lacked the balls to admit as much during the campaign.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Carl

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #307 on: July 06, 2010, 04:46:38 PM »
I had a slip and fall case.  I took it, and it settled.  I only take cases where there's clear liability.  Whether my client is injured is up to the doctor.  I am not a doctor, so if a doctor tells my client that she is injured, I have neither the right nor the reason to argue that she's not.   

I have referred a few clients to doctors--usually because they had no insurance and couldn't get medical treatment.  The only way that my client was ever going to get any treatment was if I promised the doctor that I would pay her bill out of settlement or jury award proceeds.  I have handled soft-tissue injury cases.  Insurance companies discount these because they're just trying to pay out as little as possible, but they're real injuries.  A knife in the gut is a soft-tissue injury, but it hurts a lot, and it can do a lot of damage.  

And you, of course, get to decide what injuries are real?  LOL.  If it weren't for me, you'd never pay out a dime.  Insurance companies are in the business to make profit, and without the threat of a lawsuit, they will either pay nothing or next-to-nothing.  Want to talk about scum of the Earth?

And I work a lot, thank you very much.  I don't have a staff of six people to do all the interviews, reaearch, and paperwork for me.  In fact, I have no staff at the moment.  Evidently the PI attorneys you knew were more successful than I.

-Laelth

Do you seek the opinion of a medical professional as well as others to determine impact of injury or the circumstances surrounding it?

Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #308 on: July 06, 2010, 04:58:00 PM »
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8695104


Ah, an example of our friendly neighborhood visiting liberal's rationality, tolerance, reluctance to engage in caricatures, such as we on the right living in misery due to our loss of exclusivity and superiority. A bit different from the calmly reasonable persona s/he assumed here, isn't it? Once back in the comfort zone of fellow DUmmies, the usual unfounded stereotypes about the right and specifically Tea Party members, comes out, just as with the most cartoonish primitive. Scratch a DUmmie, find a hypocrite. :yawn:

Hypocrite?  I'm not following you on that one.  Am I someone who's observant enough to note that all the people in the several photographs in that thread are white whereas the county in question is nearly half black?  Yes, I notice that.   Is that irrational or hypocritical?  No.  Is it a broad-brush accusation, yes.  Does it apply to every single person assembled in that crowd?  Almost certainly not.  But I'm sure none of you perfect people has ever made a broad-brush accusation about people you don't really know.  Since you're perfect, and I am not, I will apologize for my shortcomings now.

Sorry perfect people.

-Laelth
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #309 on: July 06, 2010, 05:04:08 PM »
Hypocrite?  I'm not following you on that one.  Am I someone who's observant enough to note that all the people in the several photographs in that thread are white whereas the county in question is nearly half black?  Yes, I notice that.   Is that irrational or hypocritical?  No.  Is it a broad-brush accusation, yes.  Does it apply to every single person assembled in that crowd?  Almost certainly not.  But I'm sure none of you perfect people has ever made a broad-brush accusation about people you don't really know.  Since you're perfect, and I am not, I will apologize for my shortcomings now.

Sorry perfect people.

-Laelth
96% of blacks voting in 2008 voted for Obama

Blacks make-up between 13 to 15 percent of US voting age population

Ergo blacks are overwhelmingly racist
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #310 on: July 06, 2010, 05:04:27 PM »
Their whole premise of what is and isn't important is goofed up.  They hold this belief that the left vs. right dichotomy is a tool that the ruling class uses to divides us, and therefore they try to frame things in a top vs. bottom dichotomy.  It's silly and immature, but try and convince them otherwise and they close their eyes to understanding anything other than what their simpleminded beliefs have caused them to conclude.  Like a lot of people who recognize the kookiness of it, I don't have time for it.

I am glad you can at least hear that, even if you disagree with it.  That is, in fact, what many of us believe.  There's a lot of evidence in favor of this position, I should add.  Racism works this was especially well.  "Wedge issues" are called "wedge issues" because they're tools used to get people who should be allies to fight against one another.  The end result is that the wealthiest and most powerful among us benefit while the vast majority of us try to cut one anothers' throats.

"I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half."
- Jay Gould

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jay_gould.html

That's exactly what they try to do.

-Laelth
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #311 on: July 06, 2010, 05:15:32 PM »
There's a lot of evidence in favor of this position, I should add.

Yeah.  The same type of evidence that says the World Trade Center Towers were brought down by explosive charges.   :mental:

The "lot of evidence in favor of this position" for the premise that the "left vs. right dichotomy is a tool that the ruling class uses to divides us" is unimpressive, except to the easily impressionable.

Let me make this extremely clear:  If you really believe "the left vs. right dichotomy is a tool that the ruling class uses to divides us" and what "we the people" should be doing is banding together as members of the "bottom" in order to fight those at the "top," then you believe a lie.  Those who hold that view deserve to be politically marginalized.  

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« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 06:02:38 PM by USA4ME »
Because third world peasant labor is a good thing.

Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #312 on: July 06, 2010, 05:17:02 PM »

I wonder if Laelth got nervous after one of our members kindly informed him that he could get banned from the Dump for posting here, and ran over there to fix matters and declare loyalty. You know in the leftist world, the quickest way to establish loyalty-cred-is to denounce the right. Same principle as "denunciations" under Mao or Stalin-point the finger at the other guy to take the heat off yourself. With the DUmp, the more outlandish and unfounded the slander of the right, the more dedicated and faithful a leftist you are. IOf you never march, never send a dime to a leftist cause, you will get more credit anyway for coming up with the most outrageous, vile, slanderous accusations and names against people on the right. Not just politicians and public figures, but everyone on the right. At best, we don't know better than to allow some little leftist fascist to tell us how to live our lives.

Me?  Declare loyalty?  No.  I am afraid that's not in my make-up.  I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States, and that's as far as I will go.  I am on thin ice on DU.  Liberals like me feel under siege.  Obama is no liberal, and we're very mad about what he's doing, and we say so.  That is creating some problems because the Democratic Party loyalists think they shouldn't have to put up with people attacking the Democratic President on a site called "Democratic Underground."  Perhaps they have a point, but I find it difficult to keep my mouth shut, so I am "wandering, " so to speak.

And I see no leftist fascists trying to tell you how to live your life.  For the life of me, I can't see where all these bogeymen you good people seem to believe in are coming from.  We liberals will regulate your businesses if given the chance, but we wouldn't be all up in your bedrooms or your uteruses.  It's usually conservatives who go there.

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And misery? Hey Laelth, your guy, the socialist traitor in the White House, won, and still your DUmmy cohorts are the ones always whining and moaning! I was a happy person before he showed up, and my life is still happy, because something bigger and more important and more fundamental and most of all more reliable than petty politics and politicians in this world rules my life, and even if it didn't, I wouldn't go on political message boards and fool myself into thinking that my posted words mattered in the scheme of things, especially to the extent of the DUmmies who live in a state of misery because of their own delusions.

Again, calling Obama a socialist is laughable to me.  He's not even a liberal.  From my perspective he's center-right--not a full-blown give-the-corporations-absolutely-everything-they-want conservative, but he's pretty close.

And we on the left do whine and moan a lot.  I admit that.  I am compelled to address injustice when I see it, and I am seeing a lot of injustice these days.  That means I whine and moan.  But I note that this whole forum seems fascinated with our whining and moaning.  What would you do for entertainment if you couldn't enjoy the misery of liberals in pain?

History will have to decide which of us is delusional.

-Laelth
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 06:12:45 PM by Laelth »
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #313 on: July 06, 2010, 05:20:54 PM »
Only a liberal can complain incessantly about wealth then pretend to want to improve the station of the poor and downtrodden
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #314 on: July 06, 2010, 05:22:01 PM »
So she's basically calling us racists.....so that's what she learned for being here for a few days.... :lmao:

Honestly, I haven't seen any racism here.  Have I missed something?  Did some of you attend the rally that was being photographed and upon which I commented?

Again, I admit to making an inappropriate, broad-brush attack (based upon my knowledge of my own, deeply-racist Southern family) in my description of the photographs in that thread.  I apologize for my shortcomings, as I am sure none of you have ever suggested that all liberals are unintelligent (or DUmmies).

Did someone call me a hypocrite?

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #315 on: July 06, 2010, 05:24:47 PM »
Memo to our little chewtoy--the fact that you're still active here and can post anytime you wish says loads more about our acceptance and tolerance than it ever will of yours. 

I deeply, honestly admire the fact that you allow me to post here.  That is impressive, indeed, even if many of you are inexcusably rude.  I would have been banned from Free Republic long ago.

And I will not be held responsible for DU.

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #316 on: July 06, 2010, 05:39:08 PM »
Well we pretty much chewed up her talking points and propaganda...calling us racists was all she had left.

I don't recall calling anyone here a racist.  I wasn't aware that anyone here attended that all-white gathering.  It was, indeed, civil, but I don't recall ever saying it was un-civil either.  Are you suggesting that if it had been an all-black gathering it would have been uncivil?

Either way, it appears that you're missing the point.  I don't think those people are any more racist than their black neighbors.  I think the races have merely been pitted against one another.  The result is that a lot of white people vote against their best interests.  The racism isn't my concern.  In fact, the United States is the least racist nation in the world.  The Japanese and the British and the French are much more racist.  We have made enormous progress on that issue in the United States, and I am very proud of my country for that.

But I hate to see poor and middle-classed white people voting for the pro-rich party.  That makes no sense to me.  These days, though, voting for the Democrats is no better.  The Democratic Party is as pro-rich these days as the Republican Party.  As I have said, it appears that nobody represents the people any more.

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #317 on: July 06, 2010, 05:54:02 PM »
I have found insufficient evidence to believe that the rich/ruling class are out to lord over the rest of us.  They're too interested in their own lives (miserable lives in some cases, depending on if they allow money to rule their life or not), fighting among themselves, and not organized enough to pull anything like that off.  It has never been left vs. right or top vs. bottom to me; it's always been good vs. evil.  And as it stands, when it comes to morals (especially social morals) and freedom and liberty, liberals have pitched their tents with immorality and Big Brother gov't.  You can forget me and many others ever finding consensus with people who are immoral.  They might win a few battles for the time being, but in the long run they will lose forever.

For me, just because of who I am, I also see politics as a good/evil issue.  Most people do not, as I am sure you're aware.  I can not agree that government is inherently evil.  I took an oath to uphold the Constitution, after all.  I see government as a tool to enact the will of the people in a collective fashion.  In fact, it's the only democratic tool that people have to achieve that purpose--collective action.  But, ultimately, the government is only as good as the people running it, and I see a lot of evil controling the levers of power now--as I have seen for the past 30+ years.  Carter was, perhaps, the last "good" President we had, and you can see how far that got him.

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #318 on: July 06, 2010, 05:56:22 PM »
That's it, just keep up with the talkin' points. Your brethren will be proud. I would think a lawyer would at least do some research over corporate tax rates before dismissing them completely.

oh, and liberal = socialist = communist! The only difference is time. Eventually they all come to the same conclusion. People like you tellin' the rest of us what's good for us!

I'm an adult. I don't need or want the likes of you tellin' me anything! Go crawl back under your rock.

You're such a charming person.  Did your mother teach you those nice manners, or are you self-taught?

Or did you just get tired of calling me a coward and suggesting that I was "running away" from this discussion?   :tongue:

-Laelth
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Offline Doc

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #319 on: July 06, 2010, 06:00:35 PM »
Quote
author=Laelth link=topic=45708.msg505767#msg505767 date=1278443999]
I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings by not responding in a timely fashion.  I have been busy working and spending the holiday with my family.  But let's be honest, here.  We're not going to see any "liberal" taxation policies in the near future.  This discussion is really moot.  

Egotistical of you to assume that my "feelings" would be in any manner determined by what you say, or do not........I deal in facts not "feelings", and calling a point "moot", is not a rebuttal, it is a tactic utilized to avoid discussion of a fact.  Perhaps a different approach would be for you to actually define what you consider "liberal" taxation (beyond, of course, the old, tired, soak the rich to hand to the "poor", or what I refer to as the "Robin Hood" syndrome).  So elucidate please, what is your preferred form of taxation?

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Generally speaking, I agree with you on this.  You need to educate your fellow-poster up-thread to whom I was responding.  Although, I will add that more progressive taxation would likely put more money in the hands of people who will spend it which will, in turn, stimulate the economy.  Of course, as I said above, we're not going to see any new progressive taxation anytime soon because Obama is a conservative

The highlighted portion indicates to me that you are too politically naive to actually have a firm grasp on what Obama's politics actually are........or for that matter, what conservatism actually is........which rather places me at a disadvantage, since it is difficult to debate someone who has no grasp of the subject, and it is becoming rather clear that you have no clue as to what conservatives actually believe, or for that matter, what the current manifestation of liberal/progressive/democrat believes.  Not that it really matters, but it is sort of a waste of my time, and yours, which, as you alluded, could be better spent with your family, than here.

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No person pays no taxes. Conservatives like to talk about one of the only progressive forms of taxation we have (income taxes) and then pretend that income taxes are the only ones that anybody pays. This is disingenuous, at best. The poor pay the highest percentage of their income in taxes (through gas taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, sin taxes, utility taxes, government service taxes, and government fees). The middle-class is also soaked, just not quite as badly (as a percentage of income). This, it appears to me, is unhealthy for our economy and our society.

And "liberals" love to point to the fact that the poor pay a larger percentage of their relative incomes in taxation than those with more wealth, which is really a strawman argument.  Who cares?  When it comes to the basic concept of taxation what percentage of one's income is actually paid isn't really the issue.  The issue regarding taxation is how it must properly and Constitutionally be spent.  

An "origionalist" like myself will argue that you will find NOTHING in our founding documents, nor in any of the collective writings of the founders that supports the argument that a welfare state should should ever be considered a part of our country (please don't insult me with the "General Welfare clause"), as both you and I know that is now, and never was intended to convey the right to food, housing, health care, or a "living wage" to the citizenry, at the point of the tax collector's gun.

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FDR created a lot of government jobs to get us out of the Great Depression. We've got to find some way to get money into the hands of the poor and the middle-class, or we'll never get out of this recession.  Cutting taxes for the wealthy, so far, along with our free treade agreements, has just shipped a lot of good-paying jobs overseas. Obviously, that strategy doesn't work. I'd be happy to discuss other options

FDR created a lot of nice National Parks, and built a few roads, but any reasonable economist will advise you that his economic policies in general did far more to prolong the depression, than they did to improve the situation.  In reality, our entry into WW II is the single most significant factor in placing the country on the road to recovery during the period, which, by the way, FDR fought tooth and nail, and if it hadn't been for Pearl Harbor, he would have likely slowed the economic recovery well into the '50's.

Putting a few dollars into the hands of the "poor" will do nothing to stimulate the economy, and putting more than a "few" dollars into their hands is simply irresponsible.......as by definition, if they had any capability to manage their financial affairs, they would not be "poor" to begin with.

Becoming isolationist, and failing to take advantage of free international trade will never accomplish the goal of recovery, as you cannot put the "genie" back in the proverbrial bottle.  People want goods and services that are priced reasonably, and that will not happen here with our union/regulatory environment.  Now if you are open to changing that.....THEN we can have a discussion.   To that point, it appears that your grasp of economics is similiar to your grasp of fundamental politics.

doc



« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 06:05:23 PM by Doc »

Offline Revolution

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #320 on: July 06, 2010, 06:01:19 PM »
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Carter was, perhaps, the last "good" President we had

Sparky is right. It is beyond my comprehension how you can even say this.

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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #321 on: July 06, 2010, 06:02:36 PM »
That really doesn`t apply as you state it or if it did then the Mafia would be legal.
We have criminal sanctions now for other organizations that exist to perpetuate crime.
That is the context of the word "gang" here and I am sure you understand that but as most do are trying to be obtuse about it.

Honestly, I did not understand that any "gang" is presumed to be a criminal operation that falls under the jurisdiction of the RICO statutes.  Freedom of assembly and freedom of association are serious Constitutional rights, and I get defensive when people threaten them.  And I do not automatically assume that all "gangs" are involved in criminal activity.

-Laelth
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Offline Laelth

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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #322 on: July 06, 2010, 06:05:05 PM »
Do you seek the opinion of a medical professional as well as others to determine impact of injury or the circumstances surrounding it?

I have to.  You can't get anything out an insurance company in an injury case without some kind of medical record.  And if I go to trial, I need a medical witness that is usually not the treating physician.  I have to be very careful and very thorough about this kind of thing.

-Laelth
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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #323 on: July 06, 2010, 06:05:57 PM »
Honestly, I did not understand that any "gang" is presumed to be a criminal operation that falls under the jurisdiction of the RICO statutes.  Freedom of assembly and freedom of association are serious Constitutional rights, and I get defensive when people threaten them.  And I do not automatically assume that all "gangs" are involved in criminal activity.

-Laelth
:thatsright:

RICO statutes were written expressly for the purpose of busting gangs.
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Re: The liberal vultures are circling.
« Reply #324 on: July 06, 2010, 06:06:55 PM »
Laelth:

Conservatives= Smaller government, lower and more fair taxation, less rules and regulations, more freedom to choose

Liberals= larger government, higher taxes, more government intrusion into one's life, more rules and regulations

Are Republican and Democrats similar  ?? Only in one way, both seem to be highly influenced by major corporations. In case you haven't noticed, the GOP is undergoing some major re-alignment because many are abandoning the GOP because they ARE getting to be too similar to the Dems. We call then "RINOs" (Republican In Name Only)

Basically, the Government can't even effectively run this country, why the HELL would I want them to try and run my life???

Ohhh and you consider Carter a "good" President ?!?!?!?!?  :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 It's obvious that you've never served in the military and probably weren't even old enough to vote wen Carter was President. Hell, I voted for the man. I regretted that decision. I figured a Navy Nuke Engineer, what do I have to lose?? Boy was I WRONG!!! Those were the absolute WORST times I had while I was USN. The way I see it, looking back on history, the very last GOOD president the US had was Eisenhower. (I voted for Reagan, but even he did some things I am STILL pissed about)
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