Author Topic: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war  (Read 2778 times)

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Offline The Village Idiot

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AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« on: May 20, 2010, 01:20:32 PM »
It's AP so... one line.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Pentagon's top leadership refused on Thursday to label the sinking of a South Korean ship an act of war.

ugh

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_US_KOREAS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-05-20-13-53-02

Offline Thor

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2010, 01:25:51 PM »
With this Administration that we have in the White House, there is little doubt in my mind that S. Korea will receive NO help from us.
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Offline Doc

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 01:38:31 PM »
With this Administration that we have in the White House, there is little doubt in my mind that S. Korea will receive NO help from us.

Wouldn't we be hard pressed not to?  After all, if the Norks come storming across the 38th parallel, we have a substantial military complement there do we not?  I don't see a war between the north and south as a naval conflict that would last very long with the superiority that SK has in naval assets, but an infantry conflict would be a horse of an entirely different color......their ground forces may not be world class, from the perspective of equipment and training, but the sheer numbers would overwhelm the DMZ defences in short order......hell, they can shell Seoul without ever leaving their own country......

doc

Offline djones520

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 01:43:57 PM »
Wouldn't we be hard pressed not to?  After all, if the Norks come storming across the 38th parallel, we have a substantial military complement there do we not?  I don't see a war between the north and south as a naval conflict that would last very long with the superiority that SK has in naval assets, but an infantry conflict would be a horse of an entirely different color......their ground forces may not be world class, from the perspective of equipment and training, but the sheer numbers would overwhelm the DMZ defences in short order......hell, they can shell Seoul without ever leaving their own country......

doc

Not as big as it once was.

When this first happened, I knew this was going to be a sticky situation.  No one wants to be the one to say enough is enough, because when we do, hundreds of thousands of people are going to die, if not millions.
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 01:58:37 PM »
We're at war with them already, there is just an armistice.  The Pentagon is subject to direction of the elected government, but even an Administration that had the slightest clue about foreign policy (Which the present one certainly does not) would not leapfrog the South Koreans on this.  It's not going to be taken as cause to abandon the armistice unless the South Koreans want to take it that way, it's their call, not ours.
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Offline Doc

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 02:17:38 PM »
We're at war with them already, there is just an armistice.  The Pentagon is subject to direction of the elected government, but even an Administration that had the slightest clue about foreign policy (Which the present one certainly does not) would not leapfrog the South Koreans on this.  It's not going to be taken as cause to abandon the armistice unless the South Koreans want to take it that way, it's their call, not ours.

I think you guys missed my point....if hostilities break out between the north and south, with naval assets to begin with, and the Norks decide on a ground invasion, or at least a siege of Seoul.....are we not standing in the way of that invasion, and what exactly would our military role be under those circumstances?   If I;m reading you correctly, we'd cut and run, right?

doc

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2010, 02:53:49 PM »
I think you guys missed my point....if hostilities break out between the north and south, with naval assets to begin with, and the Norks decide on a ground invasion, or at least a siege of Seoul.....are we not standing in the way of that invasion, and what exactly would our military role be under those circumstances?   If I;m reading you correctly, we'd cut and run, right?

doc
Massive air and naval thrust. Not too many boots left to put on the ground or pull from somewhere else.

The reignited war would suck.

The aftermath would be much, much worse.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2010, 03:01:59 PM »
Massive air and naval thrust. Not too many boots left to put on the ground or pull from somewhere else.
 
If I'm reading DAT correctly, would our present CiC have the "stomach" for that"

The reignited war would suck.

War always sucks.....

The aftermath would be much, much worse.

In what way?
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2010, 03:07:21 PM »
I think you guys missed my point....if hostilities break out between the north and south, with naval assets to begin with, and the Norks decide on a ground invasion, or at least a siege of Seoul.....are we not standing in the way of that invasion, and what exactly would our military role be under those circumstances?   If I;m reading you correctly, we'd cut and run, right?

doc

One likes to think that the South would let us know WTF they were planning to do before initiating any such new hostilities themselves, and it is their call, not ours, to do that.  In the case of the Norks initiating new hostilities, it is an open question as to how much of a surprise it would be since none of us here are privy to what kind of lead our intel would give us on that, and anybody who does know should be keeping his lips zipped anyway. 

If by some combination of mischance, brilliant deception operations, totally effective suppression of any betraying SIGINT, ELINT. SATINT, and HUMINT or totally incompetent interpretation of it all by us, we were actually caught more or less flat-footed, there ain't no place to cut and run to, it's a stand and fight situation.   
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2010, 03:14:01 PM »
if hostilities break out between the north and south, with naval assets to begin with, and the Norks decide on a ground invasion, or at least a siege of Seoul.....are we not standing in the way of that invasion

The Norks will seize some of Seoul and then sue for "peace" negotiations.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2010, 03:58:29 PM »
Quote
The aftermath would be much, much worse.

In what way?

North Korea would exhaust itself to death. They're barely functioning as it is. The issue of the matter is how much damage they can do while they are still a viable military power. I doubt they could last more than a month, a week if we're lucky but figure 2 to 3. That's quite a long time for a state as heavily armed as those idiots.

As mentioned a couple of times in this thread Seige of Seoul and Sue for Peace/Ransom is the most logical path for the North but our air and navy are superior enough to render that impossible for them to hold. Obama would risk impeachment both congressionally and publically if he refused to commit the USAF and USN with gorund troops reserved for strategic latitude/mopping-up.

Of course Seoul disappears. Tens of thousands of civilians are killed though a few hundred thousand is more likely. The devastation of Korea's economy ripples outward along the Pacific Rim. Maybe a suddenly revenue-starved China decides to call some bonds.

China would never allow a penisula reunited under an ally of the US because that puts us on their doorstep. They will resist that until the bitter end. We pay heed or risk a region war we cannot fight.

Then the remains of North Korea become a trillion dollar humanitarian crisis. Millions of refugees flee both north to China and South...then only South after the Chinese start turning them away at gunpoint. The already crippled southern economy buckles. Food distribution, civil order, medical services and sanitation collapse. Famine, lawlessness and disease run rampant.

The war would be over in a month...the mopping up would be at least a decade with the serious risk of a greater war with China that could spread to Taiwan, Japan and India amongst others. The world recession tilts into depression.

Oh yeah, and they may or may not have a half-dozen nukes to use or lose but they also have a robust chemical and biological capability and missiles that can splash down near Hawaii.

Feel better?

 :p
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Offline cavegal

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2010, 04:25:41 PM »
It's AP so... one line.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Pentagon's top leadership refused on Thursday to label the sinking of a South Korean ship an act of war.

ugh

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_US_KOREAS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-05-20-13-53-02
Not surprising in the least.


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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2010, 04:27:26 PM »
I am saying that once they have taken Seoul, within days possibly, and ransom/sue for peace the war is over.

If the US (assuming Obie Won lifted a finger in the first place) continues attacking, then the world will turn against us.

Offline Doc

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2010, 04:48:51 PM »
I'm far from a military strategist, however from a geopolitical point of view, I am still curious about some facets of this issue:

First, I don't see North Korea as a particularly big issue militarily (other than the havoc that their ground troops could cause initially in the south).  They are an impoverished nation with no resources, led by a psycho.  Surely their senior military officials know that if the US (or any other first-world country for that matter) were to become involved, not only is it a war that they could not win, but it would be one that would likely be lost in a few weeks after the central government were decapitated, and their command and control capability effectively demolished.  They have nuke capability, but it is crude at best, and delivery systems antiquated, unreliable, and few in number.  After a few weeks they would be reduced to large numbers of troops without any effective commanders, communication, mission, or direction.  And since their MO, unlike ours, is not to train troops to think and act independently of command, they should devolve into essentially rabble.

The first argument that I always hear is that China would be forced to intervene........to this I would argue that a hell of a lot has changed politically in China since 1952, and Chinese may be communists, but they are far from stupid........they are aware that it would be a far better situation for them to have a democratic, productive, unified Korea south of the Yalu River, than a tinpot dictator that they are constantly having to prop up both economically and militarily, and who embarrasses them on an ongoing basis, on the world stage by pulling stunts that they have to defend.  A Korea that has (in its present southern manifestation) never shown any aggressive tendencies toward anyone.  I'm not convinced that China (as in the past) places ideology above their obvious desire to become a world economic power, which would vanish in a heartbeat were they to involve themselves in an armed confrontation with their biggest customers, who could easily tell them to start eating those T-bills that they own when they run out of rice, because, we ain't gonna redeem them........

DAT mentioned that the combined intelligence capabilities should be ale to provide insight into any potential threat that might be coming from the north.........however, all of that intelligence seemed to miss the fact that somehow they managed to torpedo a SK Frigate.......makes one wonder........

I'm certainly not minimizing the risk of great loss of life, and destruction in such a conflict,,,,,it just seems to me that the Norks are frequently used as a "bogeyman" to gin up political termoil, far in excess of their actual capabilities.  It seems almost as though they are being used as a pawn by both sides in an effort to gain political or economic advantage.

I think that the likely outcome (of this singular event) will be that at some point in the not too distant future, one of the Norks coastal patrol submarines may end up "missing - presumed lost", and the situation will continue  as it always has.......

doc

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2010, 06:04:24 PM »
China would only move in to seize the nuke research/storage sites in the far north of Korea

Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2010, 07:08:14 PM »
Massive air and naval thrust. Not too many boots left to put on the ground or pull from somewhere else.

The reignited war would suck.

The aftermath would be much, much worse.

It certainly will be a mess. Seoul has 12 million people and it is not too far from the DMZ area. If North Korea invades, it is going to be a real mess. North Korean military is more oriented offensively.
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Offline RightCoast

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2010, 07:18:40 PM »
The real question is this: if N Korea sank a US Navy ship, would it be an act of war or not?
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Offline ironhorsedriver

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2010, 09:42:51 AM »
Irregardless of the what ifs, how's, or whatever else. The sinking of a warship by another nation is an act of war. Plain and simple. I'm not saying go to war, but the act of provocation by the North is an act of war.

Offline Doc

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2010, 10:37:31 AM »
The real question is this: if N Korea sank a US Navy ship, would it be an act of war or not?

I realize that it is impolite to answer a question with a question.....forgive me.....however, I would answer by asking if this happened, do you really think the present administration would do anything about it?

I suspect such an act would be dealt with by the Obama administration with a teleprompter speech, including a "shout out" to some pet minority in the audience, followed by a strongly-worded apology for America's past sins........ :fuelfire:

doc

Offline vesta111

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2010, 04:07:45 PM »
Irregardless of the what ifs, how's, or whatever else. The sinking of a warship by another nation is an act of war. Plain and simple. I'm not saying go to war, but the act of provocation by the North is an act of war.



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Offline Chris_

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Re: AP: Pentagon won't say ship sinking is an act of war
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2010, 07:44:28 PM »

What was the war cry from years ago, " Remember the Main "

And you live where Vesta?

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