What if Greece is like the fall of the Berlin Wall for predatory capitalism?

[Carl]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8291298

yurbud  (1000+ posts)        Fri May-07-10 02:15 PM
Original message
What if Greece is like the fall of the Berlin Wall for predatory capitalism?
 Probably the singular political moment in my life was the fall of the Berlin Wall. The enemy we were told was implacable and eternal collapsed in on itself.

Maybe the protests in Greece will be the crowds tipping over the Berlin Wall of profits-before-people, predatory capitalism.

Like the implacable enemy, we have been told that amoral capitalism is like the laws of gravity and evolution. In one sense, it is: but so is the course cancer, AIDS, and other diseases. We intercede to stop those natural processes from cutting lives short.

So it will be with the amoral predators of Wall Street and banks. They may always exist, but if not contained and starved of power and money, they will kill not only people but whole countries. And now that they have clearly turned the ''Shock Doctrine'' tactics on the US and Europe, they are destroying Western civilization itself, so that a handful of people who already have more money than they could spend in a thousand lifetimes will have even more, even if it means wiping out the public education, jobs, and home ownership that allowed a middle class, and therefore democracy to exist.

Too many are enduring too much for the benefit of too few.

We can't take it much longer.

If the Democrats can't break the financial elite and make them subject to the laws of society like the rest of us, and subordinate their avarice to the public good and the good of humanity as a whole, the Wall will fall on them too.
 

Yeah...Capitalism is what has brought Greece to bankuptcy. 

Oregone  (1000+ posts)      Fri May-07-10 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Capitalism is predatory. Don't be mistaken
 Edited on Fri May-07-10 02:23 PM by Oregone
Its a system that distributes wealth created through production from the laborers producing it to the few elite owners; it strips workers of the ability to profit from their labor, reducing them to nothing but a cost of production (like a machine or a desk). Controlled or uncontrolled, that sounds predatory to me.

Is it any wonder that this system will perpetually contribute to a disparity in wealth (and thereby, increase poverty of the general population)? And when a few elite people amass such wealth and power, this economic system naturally becomes intertwined with the political system. When this begins to happen, the "predatory" behavior of preying on the poor becomes legal and the status quo due to the rich's lobbying efforts.

Capitalism starts off as bad deal for the laborer, and it becomes a worse deal after generations of disparity allow just a few to call all the shots in their favor

readmoreoften (1000+ posts)        Fri May-07-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Oh, are capitalism and "totalitarianism" opposites? Hmm. Your ass is talking.
 Capitalism was born and developed under the aegis of kingdoms and royalty. The conflation of economic capitalism with democracy is asinine and historical inaccurate. Socialism does not have to be totalitarian and capitalism does not have to be democratic. There is nothing more "totalitarian" on this planet than capitalism at the moment. It is all-consuming, all-powerful, and has colonized nearly every inch of this planet. 

Someone didn`t get their pony.

NoNothing (659 posts)      Fri May-07-10 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. Greece is not a victim
 Any more so than someone who lives the high life by racking up credit cards.

At the bottom, they were consuming the resources and the labor of others without any concern for paying it back, and are upset that will not be able to continue doing so.

That's not a path to a sustainable future.
 

readmoreoften (1000+ posts)        Fri May-07-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. And what part of CAPITALISM IS GLOBAL do you not get? Yeah, the Greek capitalists
 screwed things up, just like the American capitalists have, just like the French and German capitalists have. Capitalism IS living the high life by racking up debt on the backs of the working class. It's extracting capital out of labor, then laundering it by trading it on a market. But the law of diminishing returns means that you can only steal so much for so long. The well is dry, and Greece is just a symptom.

You act as if NATIONS are one unified body acting as one people. They aren't. They're made up of political and economic groups. A minority of Greek profligates have run the country in the ground, and you blame the victims who they impoverished. 

T Wolf  (1000+ posts)      Fri May-07-10 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. Predatory capitalism is much more powerful than the Soviet Union ever was. And the
 capitalist cretins are more than willing to destroy an entire nation to perpetuate their monopoly control over our lives.

They are much more ruthless than the Soviets ever were.

And much less humane or spiritual than those godless commies could ever hope to be.

There is no comparison between the evil and destruction brought down by those two entities.

And the Soviets fought against the Nazis in WWII. The capitalists played both sides (Prescott?)

Bush`s fault.

They must drink stupid every morning.

[JohnnyReb]

25% of the greek population work for the government. The average age of retirement in Greece is 53....and they get 80% of their pay upon retirement....

Sounds like capitalism to me....uh huh....what they need is more socialism..... and Obama is trying to get us on the hook for 8 billion of their bail out funds....the DUmmbocrats have a vote scheduled for sunday on that bailout.

[BlueStateSaint]

Carl, they're steeped in stoopid.

[Karin]

But the law of diminishing returns means that you can only steal so much for so long.

  That's not what the law of diminishing returns refers to.  It's a cost accounting/econ 101 term.  These guys pull so much out of their ass and try to sound like a tweedy tenured lefty professor, it's embarrassing. 

Oregone, the biggest commie over there.  Why doesn't he simply try and move?  Do the commie countries take people, like Twixvoy wanted to do?  I've never looked into it, naturally.  I'm sick of Oregone and all his stupid posts.  I wish him ill.  I know, how about a hiking camping trip on the border of Iran?  Whattya say, Oregone?  Sounds like fun! 

[Attero Dominatus]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8291298

yurbud  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Fri May-07-10 02:15 PM
Original message
What if Greece is like the fall of the Berlin Wall for predatory capitalism?
   
Probably the singular political moment in my life was the fall of the Berlin Wall. The enemy we were told was implacable and eternal collapsed in on itself.

Maybe the protests in Greece will be the crowds tipping over the Berlin Wall of profits-before-people, predatory capitalism.

Like the implacable enemy, we have been told that amoral capitalism is like the laws of gravity and evolution. In one sense, it is: but so is the course cancer, AIDS, and other diseases. We intercede to stop those natural processes from cutting lives short.

So it will be with the amoral predators of Wall Street and banks. They may always exist, but if not contained and starved of power and money, they will kill not only people but whole countries. And now that they have clearly turned the ''Shock Doctrine'' tactics on the US and Europe, they are destroying Western civilization itself, so that a handful of people who already have more money than they could spend in a thousand lifetimes will have even more, even if it means wiping out the public education, jobs, and home ownership that allowed a middle class, and therefore democracy to exist.

Too many are enduring too much for the benefit of too few.

We can't take it much longer.

If the Democrats can't break the financial elite and make them subject to the laws of society like the rest of us, and subordinate their avarice to the public good and the good of humanity as a whole, the Wall will fall on them too.
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Why don't you just cut the crap and say 'Works of the world unite!'

Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list    Fri May-07-10 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Capitalism is predatory. Don't be mistaken
   
Edited on Fri May-07-10 02:23 PM by Oregone
Its a system that distributes wealth created through production from the laborers producing it to the few elite owners; it strips workers of the ability to profit from their labor, reducing them to nothing but a cost of production (like a machine or a desk). Controlled or uncontrolled, that sounds predatory to me.

Is it any wonder that this system will perpetually contribute to a disparity in wealth (and thereby, increase poverty of the general population)? And when a few elite people amass such wealth and power, this economic system naturally becomes intertwined with the political system. When this begins to happen, the "predatory" behavior of preying on the poor becomes legal and the status quo due to the rich's lobbying efforts.

Capitalism starts off as bad deal for the laborer, and it becomes a worse deal after generations of disparity allow just a few to call all the shots in their favor
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Your precious Communism creates a disparity between the serfs and the rulers.

Cessna Invesco Palin  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Fri May-07-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. What predatory capitalism?
   
Who were the predators and what did they do to cause this?
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Your precious socialism and the debt it incurs caused this, DUmbshit. 

T Wolf  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Fri May-07-10 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. Predatory capitalism is much more powerful than the Soviet Union ever was. And the
   
capitalist cretins are more than willing to destroy an entire nation to perpetuate their monopoly control over our lives.

They are much more ruthless than the Soviets ever were.

And much less humane or spiritual than those godless commies could ever hope to be.

There is no comparison between the evil and destruction brought down by those two entities.

And the Soviets fought against the Nazis in WWII. The capitalists played both sides (Prescott?)

First, the Nazis were SOCIALISTS. Second, the Soviets were not Capitalism. Third, Communism has killed 100,000,000 people.

Rex  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Fri May-07-10 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
16. Predatory capitalism needs to go bye bye.
   
If you eat all your food and don't let them have time to reproduce, you're ****ed sooner or later.
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Translation: 'Workers of the world, unite!'

[The Village Idiot]

Government spent themselves far into debt. They promised pensions and entitlements they can not afford.

How is that anything to do with capitalism?

This was GOVERNMENT FAILURE 100%

[The Village Idiot]

This was government failure period.

[ReaganForRushmore]

This is what happens to a country when you decide to have cradle to grave benefits and no one works.
Add the VAT increase from 21% to 23% in Greece and their troubles are just beginning.

Socialism and Liberalism are mental disorders.

[miskie]

its amazing - they refuse to see what overtly socialistic government does. Once the proverbial 'Tipping Point' is reached, where more of the population relies on getting paid by the government, then the value the total number of other citizens pay into the government, the economy collapses.

And thats all there is to it.

[jukin]

None are so blind as those that refuse to see.

[Attero Dominatus]

moondust  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Fri May-07-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
26. Global monopoly capitalism will not end overnight.
   
The Soviet Union, for all its shortcomings, at least provided an alternative to capitalism. That was enough to keep the capitalists honest and engaged to some degree in winning over hearts and minds with real freedom, justice, and prosperity for most. When the Soviet Union collapsed those hearts and minds had nowhere else to go, or threaten to go.

Countries dismantle domestic monopolies under their jurisdiction because they lead to abuses. Who will dismantle the global monopoly of capitalism and/or end its abuses?

Greece may be just the beginning of people revolting over being squeezed back into "have not" status by the return to feudalism.


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Shortcomings? 23 million people (3.8 times more than died in the Holocaust) were murdered by Joseph Stalin alone and you think it was a shortcoming? Move to North Korea if you like communism so much.  

[blitzkrieg_17]

OK....
That's just really, really ****ing stupid. Charter member of the Flat EEG Club there.

[Attero Dominatus]

OK....
That's just really, really ****ing stupid. Charter member of the Flat EEG Club there.

DUmmy stupidity is like a black hole. It's depth is infinite.

[The Village Idiot]

its amazing - they refuse to see what overtly socialistic government does.

Exactly but they want to blame capitalism because they LOVE government largesse, how can it be their fault since they are so compassionate?

When the Greek government is overthrown, the new leaders will be communist revolutionaries ranting and railing against the capitalist exploitation of their nation.

Probably won't last long though.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

readmoreoften (1000+ posts)        Fri May-07-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Oh, are capitalism and "totalitarianism" opposites? Hmm. Your ass is talking.
 Capitalism was born and developed under the aegis of kingdoms and royalty. The conflation of...

There's that word again.

[miskie]

There's that word again.

They have no idea what the word means, do they ? Conflation is when two or more different, yet very similar items get confused, to the point where people believe they are the same - for example, people conflate breathing oxygen with breathing air.

[BlueStateSaint]

for example, people conflate breathing oxygen with breathing air.

Or, people conflate the DUmp with a rational site providing deep thinking.

[Freeper]

NoNothing (659 posts)      Fri May-07-10 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. Greece is not a victim
 Any more so than someone who lives the high life by racking up credit cards.

At the bottom, they were consuming the resources and the labor of others without any concern for paying it back, and are upset that will not be able to continue doing so.

That's not a path to a sustainable future.

Yet Obama is doing the same thing and you goons cheer.

[The Village Idiot]

That poster exactly explained what our government is doing. Look at Calipornia, they came up $3.6 Billion short in April, after a tax hike. They have an $8.8 billion payment due on June 30, remember those "revenue anticipation notes"?? lol.

Calipornia is like Greece, they think the feds will "bail them out".

Of course in the case of Greece I don't see how taking $145 billion in more debt at high interest rates is going to help their finances. Especially if they raise taxes, which suppresses the economy.

[BlueStateSaint]

That poster exactly explained what our government is doing. Look at Calipornia, they came up $3.6 Billion short in April, after a tax hike. They have an $8.8 billion payment due on June 30, remember those "revenue anticipation notes"?? lol.

Calipornia is like Greece, they think the feds will "bail them out".

Of course in the case of Greece I don't see how taking $145 billion in more debt at high interest rates is going to help their finances. Especially if they raise taxes, which suppresses the economy.

I heard that there is a bill in the House right now, with 150+ co-sponsors, that would allocate $150 billion to keep state and municipal workers working.

[thundley4]

I heard that there is a bill in the House right now, with 150+ co-sponsors, that would allocate $150 billion to keep state and municipal workers working.

Yep, another handout to the government unions that will do nothing to improve the over all jobs picture.

[miskie]

Or, people conflate the DUmp with a rational site providing deep thinking.

I have to respectfully disagree - there is nothing even remotely similar between DU and a rational website, save for both being located on the interwebs.

[Godot showed up]

I draw your attention to the second row of this table from this study.¹ These DU posters exhibit all the mental signs of construction of an internal fictitious world. They've simply re-ordered the world as it actually is, within their own minds, to suit a political ideology--that is, the world as it is is intolerable to their belief system because it is contradictory to it, so they've reconstructed the world, within their minds and in the "space" of the DU, to match that system. I'm not an MD but these sound like schizophrenic breaks and related psychoses to me, and my lay opinion is that many of these people are clinically insane. To insist that capitalism is at fault here when so evidently socialism is the culprit smacks of the psychotic.

And, not surprisingly, these people have a much higher percentage of unemployment than those who are not seriously mentally ill.

This study is over 10 years old and it would be good to have some later data, but the data can't have changed that much. What's my conclusion?: in a way, the DU IS their real world. It's a real website, so it is real in that sense. For them, it's become a substitute for the physical world, not just in human interaction--the phenomenon of "living life online"--but also a substitute for objective reality. Both because they're genuinely mentally ill, and because a very large number of them are unemployed; probably now more than ever, given the economy of the last two years. I wouldn't be surprised if the DU's posters' disconnect from physical reality has worsened in the last 2 years, as unemployment, already high among the seriously mentally ill, has skyrocketed generally. Maybe some of you can confirm this anectdotally, at least? I know they've always been living somewhere on Fantsasy Island, and Mr. Roarke has been seeing to all their needs, but have they gotten worse in the last 2 years? I'd expect that, even though their, well, essentially their messiah has been elected President. Higher unemployment should have drawn more of the seriously mentally ill to the DU, while at the same time worsening psychoses among existing members.

Caveat: This study was conducted with a British study population, but I'll at least hypothesize that the results are broadly applicable to the US population, as studies have also shown that rates of all varieties of mental illeness are higher in the US than in most European countries. Thus, the data probably underestimate the corresponding numbers in the United States.



1. Howard LM, Heslin M, Leese M, McCrone P, Rice C, Jarrett M, Spokes T. Supported employment: randomised controlled trial. Br J Psychiatry. 2010(196):404-441. http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/196/5/404. Accessed May 8, 2010.

[BlueStateSaint]

I have to respectfully disagree - there is nothing even remotely similar between DU and a rational website, save for both being located on the interwebs.

But, miskie, they think that there is.

[dandi]

Totalitarianism is required to keep the masses in line under a purely Socialist system. Or at least a brutal form of authoritarianism, since Socialism is anathema to normal human nature.