South Korean military believes North Korea torpedoes its ship

[The Village Idiot]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63L08W20100422

Reuters) - South Korea's military believes a torpedo fired from a North Korean submarine sank its navy ship last month, based on intelligence gathered jointly with the United States, a news report said on Thursday.

The Yonhap news agency report appears to be the clearest sign yet that Seoul blames Pyongyang for the sinking, thought to have killed 46 sailors in what would be one of the deadliest incidents between the rivals since the end of the 1950-53 Korean War.



The military's intelligence arm sent the report of "certain" North Korean involvement to the presidential Blue House soon after the incident, Yonhap quoted a high-ranking military source as saying.

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South Korea arrests 2 NK spies it believes may have been on an assassination mission
http://www.rttnews.com/ArticleImages/USTopStories/2010/April/SouthKoreanflag-042110.jpg

[thundley4]

Disclaimer from the 0bama regime coming in 3-2-.......

[littlelamb]

Disclaimer from the 0bama regime coming in 3-2-.......

You mean it hasn't happened yet

[lars1701c]

How much do you want to bet that obama is begging them not to make a big deal about this? Why arent the SK invading NK? thats an act of war or least it was.

[Red October]

But I thought world peace and global mutual respect was just a sunrise away.   

[DumbAss Tanker]

I expect the South will figure out a way to repay this in kind within the next year.  It's not like them to let something like this go, as Obama no doubt would.

[BlueStateSaint]

I expect the South will figure out a way to repay this in kind within the next year.  It's not like them to let something like this go, as Obama no doubt would.

Yeah, DAT . . . I think that you may be right.

[The Village Idiot]

If the South Korean government doesn't start at least sounding tough, they could face big problems, politically.

[thundley4]

If the South Korean government doesn't start at least sounding tough, they could face big problems, politically.

The same could be said Lord Zero.

[NHSparky]

Sorry, I'm having a hard time believing this.  The water in that area off the island is SHALLOW--less than 20 meters (66 feet) deep.  No way even a diesel is going to operate in that water unless it's on the surface--even a "mini-sub".

[DefiantSix]

Sorry, I'm having a hard time believing this.  The water in that area off the island is SHALLOW--less than 20 meters (66 feet) deep.  No way even a diesel is going to operate in that water unless it's on the surface--even a "mini-sub".

What about the EastBloc version of a CAPTOR mine?

[The Village Idiot]

Sorry, I'm having a hard time believing this.  The water in that area off the island is SHALLOW--less than 20 meters (66 feet) deep.  No way even a diesel is going to operate in that water unless it's on the surface--even a "mini-sub".

Maybe North Korea was testing an Underwater Vehicle with a torpedo

[LC EFA]

Our media is claiming it's a   "suicide torpedo"

[NHSparky]

A mine COULD be possible, and I'll plead ignorance on mine technology aside from very basic knowledge.  But a torpedo?  Even that seems unlikely, given that virtually all modern torpedoes actually detonate UNDER a ship or submarine's keel.  Assuming a 20 meter water depth, and if that ship drafted 20-25 feet, knowing that a typical torpedo detonates 12-15 feet or so under the keel, a torpedo seems kind of unlikely unless you like them skipping off the bottom all the way in.

Sorry, not seeing it.  Mine possibly.  Torpedo, very unlikely.

[Ptarmigan]

How much do you want to bet that obama is begging them not to make a big deal about this? Why arent the SK invading NK? thats an act of war or least it was.

North and South Korea are at war technically.

[DefiantSix]

A mine COULD be possible, and I'll plead ignorance on mine technology aside from very basic knowledge.  But a torpedo?  Even that seems unlikely, given that virtually all modern torpedoes actually detonate UNDER a ship or submarine's keel.  Assuming a 20 meter water depth, and if that ship drafted 20-25 feet, knowing that a typical torpedo detonates 12-15 feet or so under the keel, a torpedo seems kind of unlikely unless you like them skipping off the bottom all the way in.

Sorry, not seeing it.  Mine possibly.  Torpedo, very unlikely.

If mine is possible, then torpedo - at least CAPTOR, anyway - is also possible.  While the EastBloc has been big into the whole "simple, cheap, and a lot of 'em" mine philosophy, since the late '70s and early '80s or so, it had been my impression that the WestBloc was slowly moving in the direction of the CAPTOR, or CAPtive TORpedo mine design.  Basically, the mine - in western circles - is a Mk.37, Mk.44 or Mk.46 torpedo housed in a capsule.  The capsule has an array of sensors - sonar, magnetic, etc - and a database of valid targets to compare the signature of anything that passes within range to.  Signature matches the recorded footprint the mine is looking for, and the torpedo is released to kill the target.

Whilt this kind of technology is entirely beyond the NorKs budget to build on their own, it is stuff I know the Russkies have been interested in just as we have, and it seems like just the kind of present that the ChiComs would build and give to Dear Leader, in order to keep the entire region de-stabilized.

[NHSparky]

As far as sensors go, I agree with you, but even then, given the acoustical conditions in very shallow water such as that, a CAPTOR mine would be akin to shooting flies with a .45--kinda overkill and not very efficient.

More likely, a more primitive mine such as a magnetic or acoustic mine which senses when a ship is near/overhead based on Doppler might be possible.  Again, the torpedos they're talking about here would NOT work very well (if at all) in water that shallow.  Also, have the South Koreans turned over any acoustical files to anyone for analysis?  If they had passive sonar, a torpedo would have been picked up.  Hell, holding a glass to the hull would have picked up a Chinese or Russian torpedo.

Again, mine possibly, but far less likely it was a torpedo.  I'll bet a beer on that one.

[Chris_]

As far as sensors go, I agree with you, but even then, given the acoustical conditions in very shallow water such as that, a CAPTOR mine would be akin to shooting flies with a .45--kinda overkill and not very efficient.

More likely, a more primitive mine such as a magnetic or acoustic mine which senses when a ship is near/overhead based on Doppler might be possible.  Again, the torpedo's they're talking about here would NOT work very well (if at all) in water that shallow.  Also, have the South Koreans turned over any acoustical files to anyone for analysis?  If they had passive sonar, a torpedo would have been picked up.  Hell, holding a glass to the hull would have picked up a Chinese or Russian torpedo.

Again, mine possibly, but far less likely it was a torpedo.  I'll bet a beer on that one.

Perhaps you are correct about a mine, but if you look at the photo of the stern half of the vessel which has been raised:

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-korea-sunk-south-korean-warship-killing-46-sailors/story-e6frfkyi-1225856989612

And you check the deflection of the deck where she broke in half.......it is obvious to even a non expert that the explosion occurred UNDER the keel......

An internal explosion, such as a magazine would look completely different.......and as you state, in only 65 feet of water, with the vessel's draft at likely 25 to 30 feet, even a small mines detonation would be magnified by the bottom proximity, directing the main force of the blast upward, and multiplying the effect.

doc

[NHSparky]

Now they're "suicide torpedoes"?  WTF?

[Chris_]

Now they're "suicide torpedoes"?  WTF?

Well....the Japanese tried it (sorta) at Pearl Harbor in 1941.........

doc

[Chris]

Well....the Japanese tried it (sorta) at Pearl Harbor in 1941.........

doc

Toward the end of the war, Japan was running out of resources and had started relying on "manually guided" torpedoes.  Stick some poor bastard in the tube with the torpedo.  He went out with it and had to steer the thing.

[Chris_]

Toward the end of the war, Japan was running out of resources and had started relying on "manually guided" torpedoes.  Stick some poor bastard in the tube with the torpedo.  He went out with it and had to steer the thing.

I wouldn't think the poor bastard would survive the pressure pulse from firing the tube..........

doc

[DefiantSix]

I wouldn't think the poor bastard would survive the pressure pulse from firing the tube..........

doc

Kaiten were usually mounted on external racks.  The pilot would swim out of the escape hatch, mount up, and drive on to glory for the Emperor.  No ejection pulse involved.

[Chris]

The book I read wasn't real specific on how they were actually launched, only that they were used.

I think it was a book about the USS Indianapolis.

[DefiantSix]

The book I read wasn't real specific on how they were actually launched, only that they were used.

I think it was a book about the USS Indianapolis.

The kaiten was aptly described by Theodore Cook as "not so much a ship as an insertion of a human being into a very large torpedo." The guts of the beast was a standard Type-93 24" torpedo, with the mid-section elongated to create the pilot's space. He sat in a canvas chair practically on the deck of the kaiten, a crude periscope directly in front of him, and the necessary controls close to hand in the cockpit. Access to the kaiten was through hatches leading up from the sub and into the belly of the weapon. The nose assembly was packed with 3000+ pounds of high explosive; the tail section contained the propulsion unit. All in all, it was a crude, nasty way for a man to kill himself. The kaiten I saw at Etajima absolutely gave me the creeps.

LINK