Author Topic: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone  (Read 5005 times)

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Offline The Village Idiot

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http://sify.com/news/cops-wiccan-listed-victim-as-sacrifice-in-phone-news-offbeat-kejd4Ajfhbg.html

Cops: Wiccan listed victim as 'sacrifice' in phone

2010-04-09 03:30:00

A self-described Wiccan had a man's phone number programmed in her cell phone under the word "sacrifice" before she stabbed him to death, then claimed he had tried to rape her, authorities said Thursday.

Angela Sanford, 30, is accused of killing 52-year-old Joel Leyba last month with a dagger after inviting him to join her in a Wiccan celebration of spring near a popular hiking trail east of Albuquerque.

She told police she stabbed Leyba three times in the stomach after he tied her up and tried to assault her.

But police say Leyba was stabbed 11 to 13 times, and a detective reviewing Sanford's cell phone found the nickname "sacrifice" instead of Leyba's name.

"It makes us absolutely confident there was something more here than her claims of self-defense," said Patrick Davis, a spokesman for the Bernalillo County district attorney's office.

Sanford was indicted Wednesday by a Bernalillo County grand jury. Her bond has been set at $500,000.


Online DefiantSix

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2010, 04:21:24 PM »
In the immortal words of my nephew: "busted".
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 04:28:33 PM »
She might have actually gotten away with this if she weren't a moron.


Offline Chris

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 04:36:50 PM »
Dumbass probably though he was gonna "get him some".  Just a guess.

And yes, wiccans are morons.
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Offline littlelamb

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 06:05:08 PM »
She is one stupid woman
Good girls are bad girls that never get caught.

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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 06:31:51 AM »
Being a bastion of anti-Christianism that revels in every mention of christian ill-doing, the DUmp has quite a few pagans.

I wonder if they've caught wind of this story?
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Offline jinxmchue

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 10:08:17 AM »
Being a bastion of anti-Christianism that revels in every mention of christian ill-doing, the DUmp has quite a few pagans.

I wonder if they've caught wind of this story?

That would be a 10-4, good buddy.  Google is your friend.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Angela+Sanford%22+site%3Ademocraticunderground.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Two no-reply discussions in the "Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality Group," but this one is interesting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8080579

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The Straight Story  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)
Sat Apr-03-10 11:27 AM
Original message
Call to action: police question "solstice connection" in stabbing by Wiccan
   
Call to action: police question "solstice connection" in stabbing by Wiccan

KOAT News in Albuquerque, New Mexico released a story yesterday about how Angela Sanford, who claims to be Wiccan, stabbed her boyfriend to death with a "Wiccan dagger". The woman and her lover were on a hiking trail when Sanford claims that the man, Joel Leyba, attempted to sexually assault her. A witness on the scene found police and reported that a woman was being attacked. When police got to the scene, they found the couple, and Joel Leyba was pronounced dead at the scene.

Police claim that the stabbing was done with a "Wiccan dagger" that Angela Sandford carried on her at all times. The article claims that "Police said they don't know if witchcraft had anything to do with the murder." The police chief is quoted as saying "This is a time of Wiccan holiday, being the solstice. We're still investigating to determine if that had something to do with this particular homicide." KOAT did nothing to counter this misinformation.

Clearly, the police department has the wrong information not only on the solstice/equinox dates, but also on what Wicca and modern witchcraft are all about. Whether this woman did the crime and/or whether she thinks of herself as Wiccan is not the issue here. The issue is the misrepresentation, both by the media and the chief of police of what the basic premise of a Wiccan sabbat ritual is. Human sacrifice is certainly not on the agenda.

I suggest contacting Albuquerque police chief Ray Schultz and KOAT news and demanding that not only the correct information be given to the public, but that they both issue a public apology for their misrepresentation of the Wiccan religion.

First reply is a non sequitur:

Quote
ChairmanAgnostic  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)
Sat Apr-03-10 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. they are idiots.
   
This is like blaming mennonites or amish for inciting riots or declaring war.

How?  How is this crime like that at all?

Quote
ProgressiveProfessor  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)
Sat Apr-03-10 11:40 AM
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2. Until more is know, the call for indundating the cops and the media is premature
   
Edited on Sat Apr-03-10 11:41 AM by ProgressiveProfessor
Cops don't normally see a body with a knife in it and think Wicca. Be interesting to know who brought Wicca into the case and why. This article and others have a lot of missing data. Until things get filled it, lets chill, watch it, but chill.

My guess is that the dagger is marked in some pretty obvious way.  Probably something like this: http://www.somaluna.com/prod/scottish_pentacle_athame_dagger.asp?m=72

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bain_sidhe  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)
Sat Apr-03-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. My guess
   
police were trying to determine whether the murder was premeditated, and asked why she had a knife with her, to which she replied, I'm Wiccan, it's my athame (ceremonial dagger), and it's always with me.

From there, the police blew it up into this whole "Wiccan connection" thing.

If she were a Christian and the weapon had been marked with a cross, you'd have had no problem with the "Christian connection."

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ProgressiveProfessor  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)Sat Apr-03-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. That is as good as anything I guess
   
Every cop I know has a knife on them. Most of the time so do I (Gerber Leatherman clone or some sort of folder). Would not think that carrying a knife in the woods requires much of an explanation.

I seriously doubt this was a pocket knife or some other utility knife.

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kestrel91316  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)
Sat Apr-03-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. The only way Wicca is involved, lol, is if some "Wiccan" didn't pay close attention
   
when they were taught the Law of Threefold Return.

Which they all eventually learn is a fat load of horsepucky.

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get the red out  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)  Journal  Click to send private message to this author  Click to view this author's profile  Click to add this author to your buddy list  Click to add this author to your Ignore list      Sat Apr-03-10 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. So, what about other domestic violence?
   
If something happens like this with a Christian couple tomorrow will it be because it is a Christian holy day? I seriously doubt anyone would come to that conclusion.

DUmmies would.

Quote
I hate that there are such scape-goats in our country, people who are demonized because of religion or race, when the vast majority of criminals would probably call themselves "Christian" by birth or training, because they are the majority. It is so idiotic.

Christians don't go around calling people they meet "sacrifices" and killing them with ceremonial daggers they just conveniently happen to be carrying.

In response to get out's post:

Quote
The Straight Story  Donating Member  (1000+ posts)
Sat Apr-03-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. On DU it might be :) (nt)

NSS!!!  I just said that!  Even you guys know the truth.

Quote
Tailormyst  (1000+ posts)
Sat Apr-03-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. Would they be treating this the same if a Christian woman defended herself from attack?
   
If a man attacked me and I had my Athame on me, damn right I would use it on him.

Tell me, do Wiccans regularly carry around their ceremonial daggers when they aren't performing ceremonies?

Quote
MorningGlow  Donating Member  (1000+ posts
Sat Apr-03-10 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. Burn the witch! BURN HER!
   
Jayzus Kee-rist. :eyes:

Wiccan dagger = athame
Athame = ceremonial blade
Ceremonial blade = cleansed and blessed by its owner, including a vow not to shed blood with it

Oh--and solstice? That was back on March 20.

But hey, if a lunatic who thinks she's a Wiccan says so, it must be because of the faith, right?

I can't find anything about making a vow to not shed blood with it.  In fact, I have found quite the opposite and that such daggers are considered to be used as true weapons, not just ceremonial objects.

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 10:16:54 AM »
No mention of the man's phone number being on her cellphone listed as "sacrifice". I guess that is something they all do at the DUmp?

Offline Celtic Rose

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2010, 10:56:27 AM »
No mention of the man's phone number being on her cellphone listed as "sacrifice". I guess that is something they all do at the DUmp?

They are conveniently ignoring that, because then she doens't look quite so innocent.

Offline jinxmchue

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2010, 11:09:21 AM »
They are conveniently ignoring that, because then she doens't look quite so innocent.

Ayup.

It's mentioned in one of the threads from the "Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality Group," but no one has responded to it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=262x2481
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 11:11:45 AM by jinxmchue »

Offline jinxmchue

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2010, 11:14:14 AM »
Sounds like Wiccans have been hounding the police department:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=262x2478


Offline vesta111

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2010, 07:47:34 AM »
Sounds like Wiccans have been hounding the police department:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=262x2478



Give me a break here, Wicca faith is not written on stone.   

First time I heard about this faith was in the 1970's when Scott Cunningham--flooded the market with his books on the faith.  It was interesting that a MAN would attempt to teach and bring male and female into the faith that is WOMAN centered and controlled.

I haunted our library for information of the roots of this faith and found some interesting things that Dan Brown included in his books.   

What these Covens practice today is nothing like the original faith, there are bits and pieces left over but today the true faith has been lost.   

There is also the cause harm and it comes back 3 fold to you, is what we call Karma today.

Offline dutch508

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2010, 08:07:51 AM »
it's a made-up religion based on theory of what celtic religion might have been like, splattered with new age and other thinking...


what could go wrong?

In the 1920s and 30s, the Egyptologist Dr Margaret Murray published several books detailing her theories that those persecuted as witches during the Early Modern period in Europe were not, as the persecutors had claimed, followers of Satanism, but adherents of a surviving pre-Christian pagan religion - the Witch-Cult. Despite now being discredited by further historical research, her theories were widely accepted and supported at the time.

It was during the 1930s that the first evidence appears for the practice of a pagan Witchcraft religion[79] (what would be recognisable now as Wicca) in England. It seems that several groups around the country, in such places as Norfolk,[80] Cheshire[81] and the New Forest had set themselves up as continuing in the tradition of Murray's Witch-Cult, albeit with influences coming from disparate sources such as ceremonial magic, folk magic, Freemasonry, Theosophy, Romanticism, Druidry, classical mythology and Asian religions.

The Witchcraft religion became more prominent in the 1950s with the repeal of the Witchcraft Act of 1735, after which several figures, such as Charles Cardell, Cecil Williamson and most notably Gerald Gardner, began propagating their own versions of the Craft. Gardner had been initiated into the New Forest coven in 1939, before forming his own tradition, later termed Gardnerianism, which he spread through the formation of groups like the Bricket Wood coven. His tradition, aided by the help of his High Priestess Doreen Valiente and the publication of his books Witchcraft Today (1954) and The Meaning of Witchcraft (1959), soon became the dominant form in the country, and spread to other parts of the British Isles.

Following Gardner's death in 1964, the Craft continued to grow unabated despite sensationalism and negative portrayals in British tabloids, with new traditions being propagated by figures like Robert Cochrane, Sybil Leek and most importantly Alex Sanders, whose Alexandrian Wicca, which was predominantly based upon Gardnerian Wicca, albeit with an emphasis placed on ceremonial magic, spread quickly and gained much media attention. Around this time, the term "Wicca" began to be commonly adopted over "Witchcraft" and the faith was exported to countries like Australia and the United States.

It was in the United States and in Australia that new, home-grown traditions, sometimes based upon earlier, regional folk-magical traditions and often mixed with the basic structure of Gardnerian Wicca, began to develop, including Victor Anderson's Feri, Joseph Wilson's 1734 tradition, Aidan Kelly's New Reformed Orthodox Order of the Golden Dawn and eventually Zsuzsanna Budapest's Dianic Wicca, each of which emphasised different aspects of the faith.[82] It was also around this time that books teaching people how to become Witches themselves without formal initiation or training began to emerge, among them Paul Huson's Mastering Witchcraft (1970) and Lady Sheba's Book of Shadows (1971). Similar books continued to be published throughout the 1980s and 1990s, fuelled by the writing of such authors as Doreen Valiente, Janet Farrar, Stewart Farrar and Scott Cunningham, who popularised the idea of self-initiation into the Craft.

In the 1990s, amid ever-rising numbers of self-initiates, the popular media began to explore "witchcraft" in fictional films like The Craft and television series like Charmed, introducing numbers of young people to the idea of religious witchcraft. This growing demographic was soon catered to through the Internet and by authors like Silver Ravenwolf, much to the criticism of traditional Wiccan groups and individuals. In response to the way that Wicca was increasingly portrayed as trendy, eclectic, and influenced by the New Age movement, many Witches turned to the pre-Gardnerian origins of the Craft, and to the traditions of his rivals like Cardell and Cochrane, describing themselves as following "Traditional Witchcraft". Prominent groups within this Traditional Witchcraft revival included Andrew Chumbley's Cultus Sabbati and the Cornish Ros an Bucca coven
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2010, 09:50:25 AM »
I've known several Wiccans over the years, they are by-and-large harmless tree-huggers, with a religion that is rather silly but not fundamentally any nuttier than many more mainstream ones, say for instance Mormonism.

This particular situation is more of a classic illustration of the simple maxim that cell phones and idiots are a dangerous combination, especially for the idiots, but also for anyone around them.

 :loser:
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Offline vesta111

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2010, 07:37:42 PM »
I've known several Wiccans over the years, they are by-and-large harmless tree-huggers, with a religion that is rather silly but not fundamentally any nuttier than many more mainstream ones, say for instance Mormonism.

This particular situation is more of a classic illustration of the simple maxim that cell phones and idiots are a dangerous combination, especially for the idiots, but also for anyone around them.

 :loser:

From what I understand the roots began way back when woman began to gain controll of the family finances via death and inheritances.  The Church took note and needed an excuse to put the woman down. 

Woman began to influence their husbands and the Church went wild.  Dan Brown tells of over 5,000,000 woman put to death for such things as being a midwife and giving the woman in labor herbs to relieve pain, that went against church teachings that woman should deliver in pain.  These were witches the Church said.

Ah, woman were to be feared, any unpopular woman----one that was perhaps a threat to other woman because of her beauty was to die for a small birth mark or just suspicion.

A horrid time for woman, when they noticed that their period came at a moon phase, found a plant that helped sooth burns --what ever, they were witches.  All woman were expected to act like cattle, woe be to those that ever had a inquiring mind.

Remember that woman and children were property of all men.  All men were property of the Church and Crown.

Survival was at stake, so the woman went underground and formed their own faith that the moon was the God that led to procreation. [ we know today that without our Moon, there would be no life on earth ]     There were the 3 forms, the young, the grown, and the older Crone, all as the moon has its stages.

They gained knowledge of the cycles of earth and the bounty of things on the earth that they as woman could use for the benefit of themselves and children to survive.

No MAN was ever trusted to be in their Coven of 13, a small enough number to not be noticed by the Law at the time.

A true Wicca today follows the past, sons and husbands may never know about their activity's, certainly not a freaking boyfriend.  This is a WOMAN thing, same as a Lodge for men.

There are men that try to get into these covens and this is a false faith to allow any man within the fold.  Wicca is a faith that was founded to protect woman at that time from MEN and there is no such thing as a male Wicca.

Blessed be to you and yours.

 








Offline dutch508

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2010, 08:18:32 PM »
vesta, you dumb ******** ****. Wicca wasn'tinvented to empower women. I am *******tired of reading a page full of your ...I don't even know what you call what you write. I'd rather read Calipeg poetry than try to figure out what you are talking about.

Origins and Early Development, 1921-1959
 
In the 1920s and 30s, the Egyptologist Dr Margaret Murray published several books detailing her theories that those persecuted as witches during the Early Modern period in Europe were not, as the persecutors had claimed, followers of Satanism, but adherents of a surviving pre-Christian pagan religion - the Witch-Cult. Despite now being discredited by further historical research, her theories were widely accepted and supported at the time.

It was during the 1930s that the first evidence appears for the practice of a pagan Witchcraft religion[79] (what would be recognisable now as Wicca) in England. It seems that several groups around the country, in such places as Norfolk,[80] Cheshire[81] and the New Forest had set themselves up as continuing in the tradition of Murray's Witch-Cult, albeit with influences coming from disparate sources such as ceremonial magic, folk magic, Freemasonry, Theosophy, Romanticism, Druidry, classical mythology and Asian religions.



And, Dan Brown is a dumb ass.
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Offline vesta111

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2010, 06:48:36 AM »
vesta, you dumb ******** ****. Wicca wasn'tinvented to empower women. I am *******tired of reading a page full of your ...I don't even know what you call what you write. I'd rather read Calipeg poetry than try to figure out what you are talking about.

Origins and Early Development, 1921-1959
 
In the 1920s and 30s, the Egyptologist Dr Margaret Murray published several books detailing her theories that those persecuted as witches during the Early Modern period in Europe were not, as the persecutors had claimed, followers of Satanism, but adherents of a surviving pre-Christian pagan religion - the Witch-Cult. Despite now being discredited by further historical research, her theories were widely accepted and supported at the time.

It was during the 1930s that the first evidence appears for the practice of a pagan Witchcraft religion[79] (what would be recognisable now as Wicca) in England. It seems that several groups around the country, in such places as Norfolk,[80] Cheshire[81] and the New Forest had set themselves up as continuing in the tradition of Murray's Witch-Cult, albeit with influences coming from disparate sources such as ceremonial magic, folk magic, Freemasonry, Theosophy, Romanticism, Druidry, classical mythology and Asian religions.



And, Dan Brown is a dumb ass.

My goodness, who would have thought a discussion of the roots of any faith would cause such an outburst from someone who may have got their information from a different source then they did.

Calm down Dutch, there are many researchers that have come to different conclusions on studying the roots of Wicca. 

As each country in Europe had different traditions within the Church's and run by MEN, it does not surprise me that  some woman of that time bonded together in some way for self preservation. 

I am so sorry I upset you to the point of frothing at the mouth at me.  I am open to ideas even when I disagree with them, just the fact that I disagree leads me to dig deeper to find out more about the subject. 

You may in fact be correct in your ideas on Wicca in England, and I may be correct on my ideas on Wicca in Romania.





 




Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2010, 09:17:57 AM »
Well, vesta, Dutch is right that Dan Brown is a dumbass.  As far as your description of modern Wiccans, it does not correlate at all with the practices of those I've known, beyond some of the terms.  Hardly all women by any means, of course a lot of the younger guys were really in it to look at the nekkid women and get laid, but since the Wiccans see sexuality as a fundamental affirmation of life*, that wasn't the jarring sort of conflict that it would be in some circles.   


*Most well-adjusted people do too, of course, they just tend to be somewhat more discrete and discriminating about it.
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That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline dutch508

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2010, 10:16:21 AM »
My goodness, who would have thought a discussion of the roots of any faith would cause such an outburst from someone who may have got their information from a different source then they did.

Calm down Dutch, there are many researchers that have come to different conclusions on studying the roots of Wicca. 

As each country in Europe had different traditions within the Church's and run by MEN, it does not surprise me that  some woman of that time bonded together in some way for self preservation. 

I am so sorry I upset you to the point of frothing at the mouth at me.  I am open to ideas even when I disagree with them, just the fact that I disagree leads me to dig deeper to find out more about the subject. 

You may in fact be correct in your ideas on Wicca in England, and I may be correct on my ideas on Wicca in Romania.


Dumbass,
I will try to spell it out as simple as I can.

It's not my ideas on the formation of this religion, it's established history:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_hist.htm
Much of modern-day Wicca can be directly traced back to the writings of:

 Charles Leland (1824-1903) published a book in 1899: Aradia: Gospel of the Witches. 8 Leland was the founder of the Gypsy Lore Society, editor of the Philadelphia Bulletin, and a prolific author and folklorist. Aradia deals mainly with the Goddess Diana. It is presented as an ancient document which recorded the doctrines of La Vecchia Religione (The Old Religion) -- Italian witchcraft. Leland claims to have received the information from an Italian strega (sorceress) named Maddalena. How much of this is a valid account of La Vecchia Religione is anyone's guess. However, the book played a significant role in the later development of modern-day Neopaganism.
 Margaret Murray (1863 - 1963) authored The Witch Cult in Western Europe and The God of the Witches. 6 These books promoted the concept that some of the Witches who were exterminated by Roman Catholics and Protestants during the "Burning Times" (circa 1450-1792) were remnants of an earlier, organized, and dominant pre-Christian religion in Europe. Her writings have not been well received by anthropologists. However, they were very influential in providing background material for the Neopagan traditions.
 Gerald Gardner (1884 - 1964), a British civil servant, who:  has written that he joined an existing Wiccan Coven in 1939, taking the (then) usual vows of secrecy
 persuaded the coven to let him write a book in 1949 about Wicca in the form of a novel, High Magic's Aid. He carefully revealed a few of the Old Religion's beliefs and the historical persecutions that they endured.
 added many rituals, symbols, concepts and elements from ceremonial magick, Freemasonry and other sources to "flesh out" the coven's beliefs and practices, most of which had been long forgotten.
 wrote Witchcraft Today in 1954 in which he described additional details about the faith. 7
 wrote The Meaning of Witchcraft which described in detail the history of Wicca in Northern Europe. 7

 
http://www.wicca-info.com/History-of-Wicca.html
Although Witchcraft has been around for centuries, it has only been called Wicca since 1939 with the works of Gerald Gardner. Wicca continues to change as society changes. There are however many fundamentals that remain intact within most Wiccan practices.

http://www.geraldgardner.com/History_of_Wicca_Revised.pdf
As Professor Ronald Hutton of the University of Bristol has observed (in his foreword to
Wiccan Roots by Philip Heselton, Capall Bann, 2000), Wicca is “the only religion [as
opposed to denomination] which England has ever given the world.” From its humble
beginnings it spread throughout Europe and North America, Australia, New Zealand, and
South Africa, and today there are also Wiccans in Malaysia, Singapore, Japan, Fiji, and
probably a great many more places I know nothing about. The areas of biggest growth
have been in North America and Australia, where the numbers of Wiccans/Witches –
according to the latest census data – exceed that in its homeland.


“As [the Dane and Saxon invaders of England] had no witches of their own they
had no special name for them; however, they made one up from ‘wig’ an idol, and
‘laer’, learning, ‘wiglaer’ which they shortened into ‘Wicca’. It is a curious fact
that when the witches became English-speaking they adopted their Saxon name,
‘Wica’.”


Gardner was also a friend of JSM Ward, who had published a number of books
about Masonry. Doreen Valiente describes Ward as a “leading Mason” but Francis King
refers to him as “a bogus Bishop ... who had written some quite good but far-fetched
books on masonry, and who ran a peculiar religious-cum-occult community called The
Abbey of Christ the King ...” However far-fetched Ward’s books may have been, we can
assume that some of the many similarities between Wicca and Masonry are in some ways
due to Ward’s influence. Some of these concepts and phrases include:
• The Three Degrees
• “The Craft”
• “So Mote It Be”
• The Challenge
• “Properly Prepared”
• The First Degree Oath (in part)
• Presentation of the Working Tools at First Degree.


From reading Gardner’s books, it is quite apparent that Margaret Murray had a
tremendous impact upon him. Her book The God of the Witches was published in 1931,
and ten years previously, The Witch Cult in Western Europe had appeared. The God of
the Witches has been extremely influential on a number of people, and certainly inspired
Gardner. In fact, Witchcraft Today, first published in 1954, contained a foreword by
Murray. At this time, Murray’s academic work on Witchcraft was still taken seriously,
and she remained the contributor on the subject of Witchcraft for the Encyclopædia
Britannica for a number of years. Her work has subsequently been largely discredited,
although she remains a source of inspiration, if not historical accuracy
.


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Offline Doc

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2010, 11:01:16 AM »
And, Dan Brown is a dumb ass.

Well, vesta, Dutch is right that Dan Brown is a dumbass.

Err......I'm going to have to take umbrage with this comment......although Mr. Brown has written a number of FICTIONAL novels that are based on various religious and mystical themes, he is far from a "dumbass"......

His most recent novel "The Lost Symbol" is based on a series of events that are centered in Masonry......particularly Scottish Rite Masonry.  The settings in the book for many of the events are places in the actual Scottish Rite Temple in Washington DC, and the accounts of ritual and rites were written under the careful eye of the leadership of the Southern District of the Scottish Rite in the US.

With the exception of a very few instances where literary license is taken, most of the Masonic ritual and symbolism in the novel is accurate, and was reviewed, in advance, by leadership of the organization.  

When Brown decided to write the book, he sought out the assistance of the appropriate Masonic organizations, and invited their observation and participation, which was readily provided.

Dan Brown will be the first to tell you that his novels are written for their entertainment value, and not for their historical content.......that said, knowing "first hand" how much effort that Mr. Brown placed on the accurate portrayal of Masonic ritual in "The Lost Symbol"........moves him quite a distance from being a "dumbass".

Vesta, of course, is a different matter altogether.......

doc
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 11:09:32 AM by TVDOC »

Offline Celtic Rose

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2010, 11:36:08 AM »
Err......I'm going to have to take umbrage with this comment......although Mr. Brown has written a number of FICTIONAL novels that are based on various religious and mystical themes, he is far from a "dumbass"......

His most recent novel "The Lost Symbol" is based on a series of events that are centered in Masonry......particularly Scottish Rite Masonry.  The settings in the book for many of the events are places in the actual Scottish Rite Temple in Washington DC, and the accounts of ritual and rites were written under the careful eye of the leadership of the Southern District of the Scottish Rite in the US.

With the exception of a very few instances where literary license is taken, most of the Masonic ritual and symbolism in the novel is accurate, and was reviewed, in advance, by leadership of the organization.  

When Brown decided to write the book, he sought out the assistance of the appropriate Masonic organizations, and invited their observation and participation, which was readily provided.

Dan Brown will be the first to tell you that his novels are written for their entertainment value, and not for their historical content.......that said, knowing "first hand" how much effort that Mr. Brown placed on the accurate portrayal of Masonic ritual in "The Lost Symbol"........moves him quite a distance from being a "dumbass".

Vesta, of course, is a different matter altogether.......

doc

The only Dan Brown book I've read was the Da Vinci Code, and I was not impressed.  I didn't feel like he was a really outstanding author, and the blatant historical inaccuracies really grated on me. Not just the stuff about Mary Magdelene either, but more prosaic stuff like the historic portrayal of the grail, etc. 

Quite simply, I wasn't terribly impressed, but I don't know if I would call him a dumbass, just over-rated

Offline dutch508

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2010, 11:39:35 AM »
Dan Brown wrote one interesting book, and a couple of tired sequals.

He's latched onto a formula of connecting various threads of urban legend into a story. Like I said, the first one was pretty good, the rest drag on.

Let me see if I can write a Dan Brown book:

We find an ancient artifact in the basement of a retired History professor who has just died.
His death is strange in that he was mummified in what is obviously a way no-one could ever do. (dismiss the Hisotry channel's show on how to do it)
The 'Artifact' went missing in 1296 in the Holyland.
The police station get's broken into and the records vanish.
Tom Hanks is called in because only he can figure out the coded message.
Vadican thugs kill random people.
Tom Hanks finds that they are related by blood.
More people die.
Hot chick is really a Templar.
Stuff explodes.
Catholic Church is to blame.
Tom Hanks puts artifact in bookcase.


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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2010, 11:40:06 AM »
Why was Dan Brown so nice to Masons?? He certainly wasn't very truthful of catholicism was he?

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2010, 12:35:19 PM »
Well, doc, I didn't say he wasn't a very successful dumbass, I feel pretty much the same way about Stephen King.  Formula, yawn.

'Glaring historical inaccuracies,' unless the story is clearly supposed to be set in an alternate timeline or alternate reality, totally shatter my willing suspension of disbelief.
Go and tell the Spartans, O traveler passing by
That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting at least twice.

Offline Chris_

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Re: Cops: Wiccan "victim" had man listed as "sacrifice" on her cellphone
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2010, 12:49:15 PM »
Why was Dan Brown so nice to Masons?? He certainly wasn't very truthful of catholicism was he?

Not being a Catholic, I couldn't say......perhaps he asked the Vatican for their input, and as they usually do.....they either ignored him (I stste this from personal experience) , or provided him with irrelevant information......

Being an amateur historian, I can say that when one looks at the Catholic Church through the lens of history, they don't earn many kudos in many areas........

YMMV

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.