http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8085063Oh my.
PCIntern (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:35 AM
THE DENTAL OFFICE CLEANING LADY
Original message
I am outraged...
when I was growing up Jewish in Lower Bucks County, just north of the Philadelphia line, the number of anti-Semitic remarks, behaviors, vandalism, and outright violence used to increase exponentially as Easter approached. The 'explanation' for all this hatred manifesting itself was that "the Jews killed Christ".
So although I never took LSD, I'm having flashbacks now that members of the Vatican, yes the same Vatican which renounced the "Jews killed Christ" meme all those years ago, are blaming the Jewish Press for 'revealing', that is publishing court documents, that these horrors were occurring in their Church. Of course, it is Easter today and so all of this is just "right on time" as far as I am concerned.
I am reliving one of the more painful difficulties of my childhood and I'm not at all pleased about it.
One wonders exactly how old the dental office cleaning lady primitive is, describing a phenomenon from the Middle Ages as taking place in his childhood.
NJmaverick (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Jesus is the all powerful immortal son of God. How could any group of mere mortals "kill him"?
PCIntern (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:40 AM
THE DENTAL OFFICE CLEANING LADY
Response to Reply #1
2. It's "God's Plan"...
Sort of a Chapter 13 reorganizing plan...just vaster in scale...
no_hypocrisy (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. Sorry about your flashbacks. When it comes to the Church, it's sort of the casino mentality where "The House always wins."
lunatica (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. The bad old days are baaaack!
And it really suks!
But in all honesty I don't think the Catholic Church is going to quite make it this time. Too many Catholic victims over the lifetime of the Church. The Pope can't compare himself to Jesus and their myth about how he was crucified. The Romans did it, and Pope Benedict isn't Jesus and he isn't innocent of all charges and he isn't being crucified.
av8rdave (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. OK, here's what I don't get:
Wasn't it prophesy that Christ would die for our sins? If so, and if the jews did in fact kill Christ, should they not be rewarded for fulfilling God's prophesy and bestowing a great gift on mankind?
What would the morans prefer? That Jesus DIDN'T die for us?
Note: I am not trying to comment in any way the accuracy of whether or not Jews killed Christ. I'm not that well versed historically or religiously.
DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Throw In The Fact Jesus And Eleven Out Of His Twelve Disciples Were Jewish And You Have Some Irony
I have roots in Judaism and Christianity and am really disappointed by the Catholic Church's response.
Lerkfish (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. AFAIK, all his disciples were jewish. If you're thinking of Paul, he's an apostle.
DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. My Bad . I Was Thinking Of Luke Who Was A Gentile
And I believe Paul was Jewish
lunatica (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Pontius Pilate was a Roman and Jesus was crucified by the Romans
Sorry for the history lesson. And even that bit of history is in the Bible. The whole blame it on the Jews is historical fabrication to create a scapegoat. Pope Pius XII decreed that the Jews did not kill Jesus way back in the 1950s. First Benedict tries to blame the gays for pedophilia and then he tries to blame to Jews for writing about him and his actions on dealing with the pedophilia. Scapegoating seems to be the last refuge of the guilty.
DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Jerusalem Was Under Roman Control. Nothing Happened Without Their Assent
Also, it was a group of Jews who lodged their complaints against Jesus. It wasn't all Jews. Saying the Jews killed Jesus would be as accurate as saying the whites killed John Kennedy.
notadmblnd (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. The Pharisees instigated it.
And when Pontius Pilot could find that he had done nothing wrong, He gave the people a choice. Release Jesus or release a thief, the people (those who where conspiring against Jesus, including the Pharisees chose the thief. It was all political at the time and the only reason that religion is involved is because the Jewish leaders were afraid of Jesus' potential to influence the people in regards to the $$ flowing into the temple.
av8rdave (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Thanks..the more I learn, the more ignorant I seem to be!
treestar (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. I was just hearing the Passion read in church though
Pilate says he will release Jesus and the crowd says to crucify him.
But even so, that doesn't justify any Anti-Semitism.
PCIntern (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:18 AM
THE DENTAL OFFICE CLEANING LADY
Response to Reply #16
18. Believe everything you read?
This was written by committee and AFAIC it's like reading a missive from Ari Fleischer and saying, well,this is what happened.
kestrel91316 (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. Worse, it's a bad historical NOVEL written by committee.
There is some good stuff in the bible, but most of it is unreadable dreck. While there may be some basis in historical fact for some of it, other parts are just utter fabrication.
treestar (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. I'm not saying I believed it
Just that it is what the story says.
The fact there are four of them shows the details are not very well pinned down - at least for the 21st century Western minds.
DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. The Crowd Was Comprised Of Jews
But that's different than saying the Jews as a people killed him. And an all powerful God could have stopped them if he wanted. This was all predicted in the Book Of Isaiah . Jesus was born to die the way he did.
PCIntern (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:59 AM
THE DENTAL OFFICE CLEANING LADY
Response to Reply #25
28. ...and Teabaggers are comprised of Dems and Repubs, right?
I mean, who TF knows what really happened, if anything? It's not cut-and-dried and not simple...fact is neither I nor anyone living today killed Jesus of Nazareth, presuming such a person really existed, and AFAIC, that's reason enough not to be mentioned as a Race or Ethnic Group in the same sentence with the word 'killed'. I don't blame young Germans for the Holocaust, in fact, many if not most, are proactively ashamed of their own history.
DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. The Whole Point Is I Categorically Reject Collective Guilt
A belated Happy Passover.
PCIntern (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 11:22 AM
THE DENTAL OFFICE CLEANING LADY
Response to Reply #30
33. point taken and thank you...
I'm generally pissed at the collective ignorance of organized religion and can't stand hypocrisy thereof. the differences within the Gospels point to political and interpretive discord. not to mention the gospels which weren't included b/c they were too radical...
treestar (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. That's what the Catholic Church says now
It admits it is no excuse for hating Jews. That would have been done by ignorant people. Jesus was Jewish. The crowd in the story are Jews. So all true. But it does not justify hating the Jews as a people.
Karenina (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
27. Today the pope did not even MENTION the crisis.
His boyz did, however, manage a change in protocol to allow another of their number to address him and refer to the victims' accounts as "petty gossip." THIS on Easter Sunday when MILLIONS were quite vocal in looking for leadership from him.
lunatica (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. The wagons have circled
The guilty conspirators attack the victims of their conspiracy of silence, and point a finger at the people who shed light on it.
They're definitely not turning the other cheek.
Karenina (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. From FT: a quote from a survivor
Barbara Blaine, a founder of the US Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), said: “Deeply wounded victims and our family members need comfort and healing but instead receive reprimands and insults. When we speak up and tell how our childhood innocence was shattered by sexual assaults by priests it is not ‘petty gossip’.â€
Ms Blaine said: “The track record of the Pope has been to cover up and seek silence about the sex crimes by priests. The Pope has said very little and taken no decisive action to rid the church of the sexual predators nor to offer justice to victims.â€
I'm waiting for Sinead to weigh-in again...
Rowan Williams has backed away from his SPOT-ON commentary. Reminds me of the Bush years.
treestar (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. True, it is people just being stupid
And propping their pre-existing Anti-Semitism.
Jesus and his family and followers were all Jewish.
There is a statement in the Catholic Missal now to the effect that the modern day or previous Jews should not be scapegoated - it's on the page after the readings from the Passion.
Morning Dew (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Interesting question
And Pharaoh did God's will as well - God hardened his heart, etc.
Don't forget Judas - he did God's will as well.
Two of the most reviled figures in the Bible were simply doing God's will.
Well, Judas did God's Will, but betraying Christ was not Judas's crime.
Judas's crime was believing that having betrayed Christ, God could not forgive him.
kestrel91316 (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. You're wrong in assuming that the God in the bible acts rationally.
Bad move.
LiberalLoner (408 posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. I'm so sorry for what you went through and are going through. I hate prejudism in any form.
PCIntern (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 09:54 AM
THE DENTAL OFFICE CLEANING LADY
Response to Reply #6
9. thanks...don't worry...
it's more of a literary flashback...
More of a fictitious literary device.
Lost4words (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
12. we are failing to evolve,we know more about selling jeans to 8 year olds than we do about developing the human condition.
DailyGrind51 (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
17. The Romans pounded in the nails at the order of a weak governor who gave in to "teabaggers"!
Kahuna (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:31 AM
THE KALUHA PRIMITIVE
Response to Original message
20. How I remember the scapegoating of the Jews when I was a kid. But even as a small child, who didn't attend church regularly, I knew that it was the Romans that actually killed him, although the Jews wanted the Romans to do so. The truth of the matter is that it was prophesied that Jesus be killed for the salvation of all. So, in reality, NOBODY killed him because he was resurrected and didn't actually die. He was supposed to die and he did. But he was also resurrected. Even as a child I got that. You can't have it both ways.
The Kaluha primitive must have been a kid circa 1539 or 1272 or 1395 or something.
MineralMan (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:37 AM
THE ANTI-OSTEOPATHIC PRIMITIVE
Response to Original message
22. I've always found it interesting that the Roman Catholic Church depicts a dead Jesus, still on the cross at the front of every church. It is the dead Christ that is their symbol. "Jesus died for your sins," is the constant thing, with Easter being the only time the Resurrection is really celebrated.
What has that led to? For one, condemnation of Jews, the "Christ-killers," and excuses for Rome, which actually killed him, according to the scriptures Christians believe.
Dead Jesus. You killed Jesus because you're evil at heart. Such a sorry image to form the centerpiece of an altar, It seems to me.
Of course, I believe none of it, so it doesn't actually have an impact on me, but I've always found it curious.
malaise (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 10:41 AM
THE MALARIAL PRIMITIVE
Response to Reply #22
23. A deliciously funny and profound post. The contradictions that people accept in the name of religion should only make rational people laugh all the time.
That's why we're always laughing at the primitives on Skins's island.
Warpy (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-04-10 11:20 AM
THE DEFROCKED WARPED PRIMITIVE, #09 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Original message
32. I survived Catholic school and I don't recall ever hearing that "Christ killer" meme from the nuns. It mostly came from the other ignorant little savages in my classroom. A lot of the church sponsored hate had been suppressed after WWII and the enormity of what had happened to Jews under Hitler shamed them into silence.
Not so the poisonous parents in the flock, I suppose.
I also remember the uptick in swastikas painted on temples during Easter week. It gave me a sick feeling, too. That shit is never far below the surface and Jews aren't the only ones vulnerable to it.
