Author Topic: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux  (Read 4404 times)

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Offline Doc

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Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« on: March 24, 2010, 03:35:41 PM »
Perhaps no book in the New Testament has generated  more debate, and angst than the Book of Revelations.......or "The Apocalypse of John".  This book is alledged to have been written by a man named John of Patmos, so called because he was exiled to the island of Patmos, late in the first century, AD.  John of Patmos is presumed to be the Apostle John, however there is so far, no evidence to support this.

This is probably the most difficult book in the Bible to understand, as it is entirely apocalyptic, devoted completely to the end of times, and the "Second Coming".

Even the Council of Nicaea, who assembled and confirmed the Cannon in the third century, had great difficulty with this text.  Based on the documents describing the Council's deliberations which have been released by the Vatican for study by scholars, it is clear that many, even at times a majority, of the priests and elders of the Church considered this book to be the ramblings of a harmless loony who'd gone partially mad from isolation on a sun-baked rock in the Aegean surrounded by nothing but goats. and not a true visionary, a seer, who was accurately describing visions and images sent to him by God.  The Emperor Constantine, however, fancied himself as something of a "mystic", and in the end overruled the debate in the Council, and the text was included in the Canon.

The problem with this book, depending on your Christian perspective, is that many Christian denominations take what is written in this book as the absolute truth, word for word.

It is also interesting to note that many orthodox Jews are very interested in the study of this book, as it relates quite clearly that the events surrounding the final days have direct bearing on the State of Israel, and particularly the retaking of the Temple Mount, and erection of the "Third Temple" there (long a dream of the Jews) .  Since the Temple Mount now contains two of the holiest sites in Islam, the "Dome of the Rock", where Mohammad ascended to Heaven, and the "Al-Aqsa Mosque".  The closest that the Jews have come to fulfilling this prophesy was in 1967, when Israel captured the Temple Mount, but it was almost immediately handed back to the Muslims by Moshe Dayan, in order to avoid escalating the war to the entire Middle East..

However, I digress......this is about mistranslations and misinterpretations in Scripture.......

Therefore, I offer the word Armageddon:

The word "Armageddon" is not so much a mistranslation, as it is a completely "made up" word by the translators......in fact it is a "bastardization" or misstatement of a Hebrew term (more about that later).  Armageddon is mentioned a number of times in the book of Revelations, referring to the final battle of "good versus evil", when Christ returns to earth as a warrior to vanquish evil for good, and lead believers to a thousand-year Reign of peace.  Revelations specifically, in context refers to "Armageddon" as an event.......this is where the compound error stands out.

Scholars have studied many texts relating to this event, and have determined that the most logical source of the word "Armageddon" is that it is a place, and not an event......

A city that is very important in Jewish history lies about fifty miles north of Jerusalem.  During the time of Christ this city was comparatively large (about fifteen acres), and was strategically located to defend trade routes to and from the Holy Land........the name of this city is "Megiddo", and its historical importance stems from the battles that have been fought there.  The last of these battles was fought there in 1918 between the British, and troops of the Ottoman Empire.  There have been over thirty battles fought on this site, and it is important to note that Megiddo is the site of the first recorded battle in human history. This famous battle was fought in the fifteenth century BC between Egyption forces commanded by Pharaoh Tutmose III, and a Canaanite army led by the King of Kadesh, who had joined forces with the ruler of Megiddo.  We know so much about this battle because a record of what happened was carved into the walls of the Temple of Karnak in Egypt.

So where did Armageddon come from?  

Well the name of the place in Hebrew is "Megiddo", and a proper noun for a place in Hebrew is always prefaced by a descriptive word describing the location.........in this case either 'tel",  meaning "mound" (as in Tel Aviv), or more commonly 'har', meaning "hill".......it is therefore not a huge logical leap since Megiddo sits on a large hill overlooking a plain, to assume that the proper name of this site in Hebrew....."Har Megiddo", translated as "the hill city of Megiddo" is the origion of the word (or non word if you choose) of "Armageddon".

It would therefore follow that the use of this word in Revelations describes the location of the final battle at the end times, and not the event itself.......it should be noted that this misconception does not substantially alter the interpretation of events described in the book.......it only clarifies them for the believer.

doc
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 04:33:35 PM by TVDOC »

Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2010, 03:57:52 PM »
The word "Armageddon" is only mentioned once, in Rev 16:16.  Yet this whole group of beliefs is built around it.  It was part of a vision seen by the Apostle John.

I'm not a premillennialist so this thread will go in directions that hold no meaning to me as a Christian.  Suffice it to say I believe the jest of Revelation is the saints being persecuted, crying out to God wondering how much longer he would allow the Romans to keep killing and imprisoning them, and God's answer was to not worry about it, they'll be destroyed when the time comes, but that Christians need to be faithful unto death and He will give them a crown of life.  It had to be written in the form it was because Luke by the Spirit couldn't write:

"Dear fellow Christians,

Caesar is so stupid he thinks that the kindom of God is an earthly kingdom intent on destroying the Roman Empire.  So in the meanwhile, he's going to persecute you.  But don't worry, God will take care of everything in His time, you just do what's right.

Your fellow soldier in Christ,

John"

However, the message of the book is very relevant to us.  That is, don't worry about what's going on in the world, God will take care of that, we just need to be obedient to Him.

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2010, 04:09:55 PM »
The word "Armageddon" is only mentioned once, in Rev 16:16.  Yet this whole group of beliefs is built around it.  It was part of a vision seen by the Apostle John.

I'm not a premillennialist so this thread will go in directions that hold no meaning to me as a Christian.  Suffice it to say I believe the jest of Revelation is the saints being persecuted, crying out to God wondering how much longer he would allow the Romans to keep killing and imprisoning them, and God's answer was to not worry about it, they'll be destroyed when the time comes, but that Christians need to be faithful unto death and He will give them a crown of life.  It had to be written in the form it was because Luke by the Spirit couldn't write:

"Dear fellow Christians,

Caesar is so stupid he thinks that the kindom of God is an earthly kingdom intent on destroying the Roman Empire.  So in the meanwhile, he's going to persecute you.  But don't worry, God will take care of everything in His time, you just do what's right.

Your fellow soldier in Christ,

John"

However, the message of the book is very relevant to us.  That is, don't worry about what's going on in the world, God will take care of that, we just need to be obedient to Him.

.

I will accept your explanation as likely the simplest, and most understandable that I've heard......

I'm just gonna talk about the history and linguistics......No way am I wandering into the swamp of trying to intelligently discuss "Revelations".....I've studied it enough to become very assured that I don't have a clue.......

doc
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2010, 04:16:54 PM »
I will accept your explanation as likely the simplest, and most understandable that I've heard......

I'm just gonna talk about the history and linguistics......No way am I wandering into the swamp of trying to intelligently discuss "Revelations".....I've studied it enough to become very assured that I don't have a clue.......

doc

Thank you.  I appreaciate these discussions.

I agree the word "Megiddo" was either a city or a valley near a city that was well known as a place where many battles had taken place over the centuries, that being a perfect point of reference in Revelation to stage the battle being described.

.

Because third world peasant labor is a good thing.


Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2010, 04:36:05 PM »
Thank you.  I appreaciate these discussions.

I agree the word "Megiddo" was either a city or a valley near a city that was well known as a place where many battles had taken place over the centuries, that being a perfect point of reference in Revelation to stage the battle being described.

.



You're welcome.....I enjoy doing them, but they require a lot of research......I'll probably do one more when my headache goes away..... :-)

doc
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Offline Carl

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 04:47:18 PM »
Thank you.  I appreaciate these discussions.

I agree the word "Megiddo" was either a city or a valley near a city that was well known as a place where many battles had taken place over the centuries, that being a perfect point of reference in Revelation to stage the battle being described.

.



From the New Scofield Reference Bible.

"Armageddon (the name itself is to be found only in Rev:1616) is the ancient hill and valley of Meggido,west of the Jordan in the plain of Jezreel between Samaria and Galilee.
It is the appointed place where the armies of the beast and false prophet will be destroyed by Christ`s descending to earth in glory"



Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 04:51:59 PM »
From the New Scofield Reference Bible.

"Armageddon (the name itself is to be found only in Rev:1616) is the ancient hill and valley of Meggido,west of the Jordan in the plain of Jezreel between Samaria and Galilee.
It is the appointed place where the armies of the beast and false prophet will be destroyed by Christ`s descending to earth in glory"




Somebody got it right!  Kudos....

Can we go for an edit on the KJV....

doc
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 05:00:10 PM »
Can we go for an edit on the KJV....

I must ask..... why?  This was a vision and the place helped to describe an event.  It was simply using a known physical place that had a certain history to help the reader understand a spiritual event.  It seems to have served its purpose.  If people, through lack of study, misapply what was being referenced, that's their problem.

.
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Offline Carl

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 05:03:23 PM »
I used to go to church regularly and reading these things sort of makes me guilty that I don`t anymore but way back when I was taught that the Greek of the day as was translated had various "levels" of use.
There was a common man vernacular as well as more sophisticated usage of the language.
Much as we see today with American english as it relates to slang or common usage of words that are different then their old meaning or more formal ones.
A reading of the KJV is a good example as the word "knew" could refer to sexual relations as well as its common term.
The context would have to help sort out the proper translation if one was doing that.

So it is I suspect with the early Greek texts that were translated and as they were from either the originals or earlier translations.
All in all once more it is a matter of faith to believe that the Bible is indeed the Word of God and we are reading it as He has intended even with some confusing texts.

Offline Doc

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 05:30:44 PM »
I must ask..... why?  This was a vision and the place helped to describe an event.  It was simply using a known physical place that had a certain history to help the reader understand a spiritual event.  It seems to have served its purpose.  If people, through lack of study, misapply what was being referenced, that's their problem.

.

Clarity is all....as I mentioned in the last line of the OP....

As a young person growing up, and attending Sunday School, I often wondered why (the KJV was all we had back then), the texts were at times, so obscure that it required the Church to publish a leaders guide for every lesson to explain what was going on......I considered that antiquated and unnecessary.....I'm all for making the "Good News" as easy to understand as possible.....

doc
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 05:36:31 PM by TVDOC »

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 10:09:07 AM »
I always called it The Book of Irrelevations...it's irrelelvant

It only begins when "He who lets, lets"

Once in motion all events are set in stone.

Nothing can be done to alter one iota of it.

It all ends happily.



Why bother worrying about it?
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2010, 12:15:24 PM »
I always called it The Book of Irrelevations...it's irrelelvant

It only begins when "He who lets, lets"

Once in motion all events are set in stone.

Nothing can be done to alter one iota of it.

It all ends happily.



Why bother worrying about it?

Sorta like USA4ME's simple summary......

I don't worry about it, other than the fact that it is there.......and that "Evangelicals" make a big deal about it......and one of my favorite passtimes is poking them with a "sharp stick".......

Kinda like you do.......

doc
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 04:29:31 PM »
...and one of my favorite passtimes is poking them with a "sharp stick".......

Kinda like you do.......

doc

Who?

Me?

 :innocent:


In all candor: many things have stoked my curiosity throughout the years. Religion has been one of them. The more bad press something gets the more likely I am to examine it. I was raised a liberal and was brought up with all the cheap caricatures of conservatives we endure today. But when I read conservatives I found the charges to be false. Conversely when conservatives called feminists, gay libbers etc closet commies I read the works of feminists and gay libbers and found it to be true...by their own words.

When christians got bad press, I read them. When catholics bad press I read them too. Ditto the Jews.

Apart from the commies and muslims it has been my observation that most people don't deserve their bad press. It's mostly just petty tribalism.

As a non-Christian I have the liberty to look at the internecine squabbles and say, "What the **** are you people fighting about?" Rabbis can have screaming matches in the middle of a yeshiva library but when the dinner bell rings its all laughter and back-slapping. Maybe centuries of persecution have taught them the value of brotherhood, doctrinal differences notwithstanding. Christians kinda seem to be coming *back* around to that since the libs ascended in the 60's but they still spew a lot of stupid shit. Hopefully they can pull their act together before the evangelical atheists of the world chase them back into to catacombs.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline Chris_

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Re: Translation Errors in Scripture Part Deux
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2010, 04:35:18 PM »
As a non-Christian I have the liberty to look at the internecine squabbles and say, "What the **** are you people fighting about?" Rabbis can have screaming matches in the middle of a yeshiva library but when the dinner bell rings its all laughter and back-slapping. Maybe centuries of persecution have taught them the value of brotherhood, doctrinal differences notwithstanding. Christians kinda seem to be coming *back* around to that since the libs ascended in the 60's but they still spew a lot of stupid shit. Hopefully they can pull their act together before the evangelical atheists of the world chase them back into to catacombs.

Er.....amen.....

doc
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.