primitives discuss hot water heaters

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=353x2770

Oh my.

supernova  (1000+ posts)        Tue Oct-27-09 04:27 PM
Original message
 
Re: Saving energy... I have to ask

it's getting to be a really weirrd spiral. Is capitalism supposed to work like this?

1) We look for ways to save energy, save on our energy bills.

2) The utility company even encourages this to a certain degree.

3) Because we use less energy, the utilities turn around and ask for rate increases?

I know that saving energy is good for the planet, but from a consumer perspective, it's a vicious circle. Eventually, we'll all be using about 500 watts/month and being charged about $100 per watt at this rate.

Warpy  (1000+ posts)        Tue Oct-27-09 04:31 PM
THE DEFROCKED WARPED PRIMITIVE; #09 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Original message

1. Rates will continue to go up as the currency inflates. That is pretty much a given.

Being an energy miser can soften the blow. After all, a 5% increase on a $50/month bill is not nearly as bad as a 5% increase on a $200/month bill.

That's the reason to save energy. Cleaning up the air is one of the side benefits.

kestrel91316  (1000+ posts)       Fri Oct-30-09 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
 
2. I remember back in the day when my electric bill was $25 or so a month, and I wasted electricity like there was no tomorrow.

Now I do everything humanly possible to conserve, and can't get the bill under $75.

ConcernedCanuk  (1000+ posts)      Fri Oct-30-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #2

3. One of the best ways to save on hydro is shut off the hot water heater

not FOREVER, but frequently.

Think about it - even families with children do NOT need to heat 40 to 60 gallons of hot water constantly.

Plan showers, baths, dish-washing laundry etc. - and shut off the hot water heater in between -

you will be surprised how long there is lots of at least warm water for hand washing, etc.

Simple/cheap mode is to just shut off the breaker.

A more comfortable/slightly more expensive mode is to have an electrician hook in a remote switch - say in the kitchen or the bathroom.

An even more efficient, yet expensive solution is to install what they call an "on-demand" hot water heater - only has a small reserve, say 2 -5 gallons, - then heats the water quickly as needed . . .

something to ponder

lizziegrace (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-01-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
 
4. I've done two things

wrapped the hot water in an insulating blanket and I turn it off at the breaker. With planning, I've been able to go 2 days without needing to fire it up. My daughter moved home after college and it makes it more complicated. I remember one morning she was in the shower and had to get to work. We ran out of hot water. She was not amused...

elocs (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-01-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
 
5. I've found that for me the savings of shutting off my hot water heater is insignificant and not worth the bother. I've tried this and found just from a convenience aspect it wasn't worth it either from the times when I wanted to take a shower and there was little or no hot water.

Check out this site: http://www.leaningpinesoftware.com/hot_water_heater_vac...

Complete with graphs and science it shows how turning off the hot water heater for an 8.5 day vacation results in a savings of 24 cents. Yes, that's less than a quarter and I would gladly pay that to have the water hot when I need it, especially when I forget to turn the hot water heater back on.

The on-demand hot water heater does work well provided you do not have hard water or use a water softener if you do. I have some friends in the Chicago area who use that and it works well even in their 2 story house. There is always hot water, shower after shower.

ConcernedCanuk  (1000+ posts)      Tue Nov-10-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
 
8. It depends alot on the climate.

Up in Northern Ontario where basement locations are fairly cool - it makes quite a difference.

I suspect many hot-water heaters are not R-16 as the example states.

ALSO

when one HAS to schedule their hot water usage

one naturally consumes less.

We don't use gallons of hot water just to degrease our dishes, we don't let it run unnecessarily, etc., etc.

When one is inconvenienced - one CONSERVES.

AND PLANS AHEAD.

not bad habits per se . .

kristopher  (1000+ posts)        Mon Nov-16-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
 
10. I understand that analysis but I'm not sure is it comprehensive enough

We are talking about a change in behavior that has consequences for years to come, not a single vacation. By presenting a very narrow picture of the benefit, the article is framing the outcome in a way that is more appropriate to someone who is looking for an excuse not to do anything differently than it is for someone who is serious about the overall effect of their decision to take action.

This is what the DOE's National Renewable Energy Lab has to say:

Install a Timer and Use Off-Peak Power for Electric Water Heaters

Illustration of a water heater showing the thermostat with a timer dial connected just below.

If you have an electric water heater, you can save an additional 5%–12% of energy by installing a timer that turns it off at night when you don't use hot water and/or during your utility's peak demand times.

You can install a timer yourself. They can cost $60 or more, but they can pay for themselves in about 1 year. Timers are most cost effective if you don't want to install a heat trap and insulate your water heater tank and pipes. Timers aren't as cost effective or useful on gas water heaters because of their pilot lights.

Contact your utility to see if it offers a demand management program. Some utilities offer "time of use" electricity rates that vary according to the demand on their system. They charge higher rates during "on-peak" times and lower rates during "off-peak" times. Some even offer incentives to customers who allow them to install control devices that shut off electric water heaters during peak demand periods. These control devices may use radio signals that allow a utility to shut off a water heater remotely anytime demand is high. Shut-off periods are generally brief so customers experience no reduction in service.

I participate in a demand management program. It has not inconvenienced us at all in over 15 years, and I have recieved $540 in credit over that time on my electric bill.

The timer is much harder to calculate, but it is unquestionably much better than the article you link to suggests.

Warpy  (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-01-09 11:34 AM
THE DEFROCKED WARPED PRIMITIVE, #09 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #3

6. I have a gas heater that's a pain in the ass to light so I turned it down to the lowest setting, 120 degrees.

I find that's plenty hot for showers and washing dishes by hand.

It also saves a bundle.

The water heater is on its last legs and won't last much longer. Then I'm going tankless.

Oh man.

franksolich keeps his hot water thermostat set at the absolutely highest level.

franksolich likes hot water, not tepid water.

supernova  (1000+ posts)        Tue Nov-03-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
 
7. I replaced a decrepit WH last year and it has lowered my bills

I would go tankless, but they run on gas, which I'm reluctant to use for safety reasons.

You're right about the temp. Mine is set to 120 and it's plenty hot enough for bathing and laundry. The dishwasher has its own heating element so it still sanitizes the dishes.

I am seriously considering a way to have solar HW and HVAC, but it is still cost prohibitive.

kristopher  (1000+ posts)        Mon Nov-16-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #3

9. You can also put it on a timer.

meeshrox  (166 posts)        Sat Mar-06-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
 
11. Yes, I've noticed that too...

and they do that with water, also! Why the hell would non-environmentalist-people even bother? I conserve every resource possible for the principle of the matter...but water/electricity/natural gas rates keep going up...

Boils down to the "shareholders" of the companies...utilities should not be a capitalist venture...

Oh my.

[BattleHymn]

Fear not, primitives!  Your great leader, the chief wookie tamer, has everything under control.  Through enormous spending for make benefit glorious nation of U S & A, this will soon be the most cost effective way to keep warm and cozy:

[crockspot]

meeshrox  (166 posts)        Sat Mar-06-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
 
11. Yes, I've noticed that too...

and they do that with water, also! Why the hell would non-environmentalist-people even bother? I conserve every resource possible for the principle of the matter...but water/electricity/natural gas rates keep going up...

Boils down to the "shareholders" of the companies...utilities should not be a capitalist venture...

I have news for you DUmmy. Hydro Quebec is a Crown Corporation, makes a huge profit, and still institutes rediculously high and unneeded rate increases.

[Randy]

I have news for you DUmmy. Hydro Quebec is a Crown Corporation, makes a huge profit, and still institutes rediculously high and unneeded rate increases.

They'll be the first to tell you that it's that way so they'll remain "competitive" 

[jukin]

Seriously, how much hot water does a DUmbass need?

A short shower every week and cleaning the cheeto dust off their hands every night should just about be next to nothing.

[BlueStateSaint]

Seriously, how much hot water does a DUmbass need?

A short shower every week and cleaning the cheeto dust off their hands every night should just about be next to nothing.

And even cleaning the Cheeto dust off can be done with cold water, if at a high enough pressure.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Warpy  (1000+ posts)        Tue Oct-27-09 04:31 PM
THE DEFROCKED WARPED PRIMITIVE; #09 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Original message

1. Rates will continue to go up as the currency inflates. That is pretty much a given.

It's pretty much a given that you're an idiot, warpy.  Inflation has been neglible over the past couple of years, in fact the big worry was that the mortgage bubble might shift things over to deflation, though that didn't quite happen, and not that Obama's economic 'Team' isn't still capable of running the ship of state hard aground.

Your beloved 'Green' BS however has driven energy costs up even as the economy stayed flat, though, as providers prepare for potential carbon taxes, and bring in more 'Green' (Higher-cost) energy alternatives into the grid.  Also demand has not slacked off at all, there are ever more power-hungry gadgets bought and used by people pulling power, with the so-called 'Energy-saving' devices nibbling just a wee bit off the peak.

[The Village Idiot]

Can anyone figure out why our electric rates seemed to have doubled in the last couple of months??

I remember Obama saying that under his plan electric rates would necessarily skyrocket.... but has he made that happen yet?

I suppose we need to turn off the lights more.

[IassaFTots]

Can anyone figure out why our electric rates seemed to have doubled in the last couple of months??

I remember Obama saying that under his plan electric rates would necessarily skyrocket.... but has he made that happen yet?

I suppose we need to turn off the lights more.

You got a new Oncor Smart Reader????

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/030610dnmetsmartmeters.3caa8e7.html

[The Village Idiot]

You got a new Oncor Smart Reader????

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/030610dnmetsmartmeters.3caa8e7.html

I don't recall any new meters being installed.

[thundley4]

What's a "hot water heater"?  We have a water heater, but it heats up cold water so we can have hot water.

[franksolich]

What's a "hot water heater"?  We have a water heater, but it heats up cold water so we can have hot water.

You know, I of all people missed that redundancy entirely.

Sorry about that, sir.

[The Village Idiot]

You know, I of all people missed that redundancy entirely.

Sorry about that, sir.

lol. Its been that way for years and someone FINALLY sees that.

[The Village Idiot]

You got a new Oncor Smart Reader????

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/030610dnmetsmartmeters.3caa8e7.html

I asked the Brother in Law and he says, why yes they did install a new meter a few months ago!!!

Where do we, I mean he, complain???

[thundley4]

You know, I of all people missed that redundancy entirely.

Sorry about that, sir.

Most people do call them hot water heaters, but there's an idiot at work that corrects me every time I say it.

[Chris]

I asked the Brother in Law and he says, why yes they did install a new meter a few months ago!!!

Where do we, I mean he, complain???

According to the article, most people are filing a complaint with the Public Utility Commission.  They are doing an investigation.

[The Village Idiot]

According to the article, most people are filing a complaint with the Public Utility Commission.  They are doing an investigation.

Our price seems to have doubled for the past few months. For no apparent reason we can discern. I will definitely get them a complaint filed.

[GOBUCKS]

Most people do call them hot water heaters, but there's an idiot at work that corrects me every time I say it.

Everyone calls them that, because that's their name. Just like everyone calls that idiot at work an idiot.
That idiot at work probably owns an ice cream freezer.

[thundley4]

Everyone calls them that, because that's their name. Just like everyone calls that idiot at work an idiot.
That idiot at work probably owns an ice cream freezer.

Let me know the next time a hot water heater is advertised, the few sites I checked all say "water heater", but most people don't .

[The Village Idiot]

I have filled out the online PUC complaint form and my sister (her house/ electric account) will call tomorrow.

[IassaFTots]

I have filled out the online PUC complaint form and my sister (her house/ electric account) will call tomorrow.

Good.  Seems to be a BIG problem.  KRLD has the lady from Oncor on pretty much every day.  Glad y'all are getting it checked out. 

[The Village Idiot]

Good.  Seems to be a BIG problem.  KRLD has the lady from Oncor on pretty much every day.  Glad y'all are getting it checked out. 

A FReeper said the same thing happened in California. Oh and FR had an article that says the Federal Government wants everyone hooked up with Smart Meters.

[The Village Idiot]

Let me know the next time a hot water heater is advertised, the few sites I checked all say "water heater", but most people don't .

I did a google search for "hot water heater" and a lot of results came up. Even if they don't use the term they do use it in their Meta Tags or whatever those are called. Because people do call them that, not just me or other ignorant Texans.

[thundley4]

I did a google search for "hot water heater" and a lot of results came up. Even if they don't use the term they do use it in their Meta Tags or whatever those are called. Because people do call them that, not just me or other ignorant Texans.

I think the majority of people do call them that.  In truth, they heat cold water very rarely. Most of the time they are making warm water get hotter, unless they have been turned off for some time.

[dandi]

Our price seems to have doubled for the past few months. For no apparent reason we can discern. I will definitely get them a complaint filed.

Mine has been ridiculous, too. Last summer we ran the a/c almost constantly and it never got over $180. The last two months it's been damn near $400. We have electric heat, but c'mon. Our service is with Florida Power & Light.