DUmmy TwixVoy Reflects On The Race To The Bottom

[GOBUCKS]

Some profound thoughts from the fertile mind of DUmmy TwixVoy:

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 03:26 PM
Original message
Why do we eat our own?
It seems to me that a large amount of the population wants to bring everyone down.

Take teachers - or other government workers - for example. Many people like to attack them for having things EVERY worker should have. Things such as a pension, decent health care, and wages one can support themselves on.

Union workers also seem to get attacked by non-union workers for them same reason.

What the attitude seems to boil down to is "I wish I had those things. So instead of forming a union and doing the organizing (that they did) necessary to get these things I just want them to have those things taken away"

It seems to me that instead of organizing and working together collectively towards our common good we just eat our own. So maybe you are working at a non-union shop and you are pissed your health care sucks, but the union shop in town offers great health care. So instead of working to get better health care for you and others your plan is to demand the union health care plan be turned to shit too? Huh?

I can promise you that the union worker has a LOT more in common with you than the CEO of your company who has given you crap health care so he can have a bigger bonus. Why not attack the CEO rather than other workers who are just trying to live a decent life?

I wonder when people will wise up and realize this kind of race to the bottom thinking is hurting every citizen (with the exception of the top 1%) in this country.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7795077
DUmmy TwixVoy is determined to improve his position in the Top DUmmy heirarchy. Having been fired from a clerking job at Target for insubordination, then fired from a trainee cable guy position for an apparent drug policy violation, then losing a signed, sealed, but not delivered job at the air  port after a suspect urine test, it's not looking good. DUmmy TwixVoy is winning that race to the bottom, and the finish line is in sight.

No other DUmmies have checked in, but I'm sure others in the race with TwixVoy to the bottom of the heap will show up soon. After all, they have nothing else to do during PMSNBC commercial breaks.

[Carl]

He just described leftist economics and government function to a T.

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7795077

Oh my.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 03:26 PM
#20 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Original message

Why do we eat our own?

It seems to me that a large amount of the population wants to bring everyone down.

Take teachers - or other government workers - for example. Many people like to attack them for having things EVERY worker should have. Things such as a pension, decent health care, and wages one can support themselves on.

Union workers also seem to get attacked by non-union workers for them same reason.

What the attitude seems to boil down to is "I wish I had those things. So instead of forming a union and doing the organizing (that they did) necessary to get these things I just want them to have those things taken away"

It seems to me that instead of organizing and working together collectively towards our common good we just eat our own. So maybe you are working at a non-union shop and you are pissed your health care sucks, but the union shop in town offers great health care. So instead of working to get better health care for you and others your plan is to demand the union health care plan be turned to shit too? Huh?

I can promise you that the union worker has a LOT more in common with you than the CEO of your company who has given you crap health care so he can have a bigger bonus. Why not attack the CEO rather than other workers who are just trying to live a decent life?

I wonder when people will wise up and realize this kind of race to the bottom thinking is hurting every citizen (with the exception of the top 1%) in this country.

jdlh8894 (769 posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
 
1. It's not a "race to the bottom"

There are a quite a few people in this US of A that don't like being told what they are or aren't supposed to do. WE ARE THE PEOPLE!

sui generis  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
 
2. "I wish I had those things"

Nailed it in one.

Even if "those things" are ephemeral and change nothing in the real world. For instance, raising taxes on the wealthy does not cure poverty.

Reducing spending, regulating labor, manufacturing and education cures poverty. Managing the trade deficit cures poverty. Giving Americans a public health plan would go a long way to curing many of the ills that follow from poverty.

Raising taxes on the Evil Rich? It'll make some fool slack-jaw feel better that they've used the mighty u.s. government to sock it to the man who has kept them down, but if they really gave a half a flying flipping shit about real issues they'd see it wasn't a real solution.

county worker  (1000+ posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
 
7. Reducing spending, regulating labor, manufacturing and education cures poverty

Do you understand what causes poverty? It is lack of income. Raising taxes that go to programs that have as their goal to reduce the results of poverty such as homelessness, crime, drug and alcohol abuse and mental health problems does more to reduce spending in the long run than anything you propose.

sui generis  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
 
20. oh god what a question

Do YOU understand what income is? It's not some magic thing that magically comes out of magical bank accounts.

Reducing spending on war goes to programs that have as their goal to reduce the results of poverty such as homelessness, crime, drug and alcohol abuse and mental health problems. Penalizing U.S. companies for shipping jobs overseas will actually create jobs here, not raising taxes.

To be clear I'm saying it's not either/or, but both; however, raising taxes on the wealthy by itself will not cure poverty or homelessness any more than it would cure male pattern baldness.

Oh and drug and alcohol abuse ARE mental health problems not "AND" mental health problems. I'm not defending avoiding taxes by any means, just responding to yet another 'tax the rich' and it will solve EVERYTHING meme.

county worker  (1000+ posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
 
3. Recommend! I'm a government worker. Our budget expenses exceeds available revenue by $38 million. So how should we make up the difference? The most popular idea is to cut services, cut salaries and cut retirement benefits. That may work but it is a short term remedy. Those ideas will put more people into a lower quality of life. For our department it means people will not get medical treatment or go homeless while us workers would take pay cuts and have no money for retirement.

Why don't we raise taxes instead? If we have a temporary economic problem, we could all contribute a little more taxes for everyone rather than hurt the few. A short term tax increase is my solution to our budget problem.

I know that the letters to the editor will say we should cut salaries and benefits of county workers and social services to the public. Yet a small increase in property tax rates would hurt those writers very little.

ParkieDem (175 posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
 
4. Well, I can try to explain some of it

First, I think most of this "backlash," for lack of a better word, is against public sector employees. Most of them have a decent pension and healthcare provided in retirement.

For many public workers, they have the ability to retire much earlier than a comparable private sector worker. So, when private sector workers see their tax dollars going to people who retire early, it irks them.

My dad is a good example. He's 62. He used to love his job, but now his company is under new management and he hates it. He has good health insurance and a pretty good retirement -- not a defined-benefit pension, but a good employer match.

However, his job does not provide retiree health insurance. He'd love to retire now, but he can't qualify for Medicare until he's 65. So, unless he wants to pay out the ass for health insurance (can you imagine the premiums for a 62-year old?), he's stuck in his job.

He's an accountant and works for a smaller company, so it's not like he can go out and start a union overnight. Plus, he keeps the company's books and knows (a) how much they pay in state/local taxes, and (b) how much his bosses make. He gets much angrier at the tax burden at his company than how much its owners are earning (which isn't an obscene amount).

So, when my dad sees public employees complain about benefits, it's aggravating to him. He doesn't begrudge them the pension or the benefit that they earned, but the reality is that more and more state and local governments are facing tremendous pension burdens, which can result in reduced services to the community. Just as Germans (who generally can't retire until 63) don't want to subsidize Greeks (who can generally retire at 58), my 62 year old father doesn't like the idea of subsidizing 55 year old public workers who have retired early.

county worker  (1000+ posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
 
10. I guess I am a public worker so here is my response.

My dad worked for NCR for 40 years. During that time he had a retirement plan and health care. Almost everyone did in the 50's and 60's. But for some reason pension plans and paid insurance was taken away for most of us. That was a result of the decrease in union representation.

I have good benefits because we are union represented. Our county did not go the way of private industry by taking away benefits.

Yet you want to take the place of the CEO's and take our benefits away. That is exactly what the OP is talking about.

Your solution should be to form unions. Corporations love the fact that we fight among ourselves rather than uniting.

ParkieDem (175 posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
 
12. I understand

My dad's beef isn't with the fact that they have good retirement and health care. It's that they can take advantage of it so early. Local governments are getting squeezed by the fact that they are burdened by pension payments to individuals who may not be working for upwards of 40 years.

county worker  (1000+ posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
 
16. The pension plan is not causing the problem. The cause is the economy.

Our budget cuts are a result of lower property tax base, lower income tax revenue, less money from grants and medicaid and medicare.

Cutting out our retirement may do something for today but what do you do the next time? Does adding more people without a decent income going to solve the problem or add to it?

The reason why people can retire with a pension is because they worked for the government for 10 to 20 years. That is years of service to the public. The military get retirement after 20 years and so should everyone I think.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 05:11 PM
#20 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #12
 
22. Most of the pension funds are contributed by other government workers

In my state, for example, all government workers are REQUIRED to contribute 7% of their annual pay to the pension plan.... which is then paid out to government workers that have already retired.

You make it sound like government workers are not paying in to the plan, and instead the plan is being funded by tax payer dollars.

I don't know - I suppose in some states it may work that way? But in some the government workers are the ones who fund their own plan.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 05:09 PM
#20 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #4

21. His logic is flawed though

Public workers may be able to retire sooner.... but during all those working years they are earning FAR less than their private sector counterparts. So there is a trade off.

Take administrative assistants in my states government. They make about $2K/month. Private sector administrative assistants could easily get up to $5k or $6k/month over many working years... compared to the public ones who are lucky IF they get a 3% increase annually.

damyank913 (242 posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message

5. Some people are very much like crabs...

If you've ever watched a bushel of crabs; everytime one gets close to climbing out another one grabs him and keeps in the bushel.

blueworld  (852 posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
 
6. Funny you should bring this up

I had to watch CNN early this morning in order to avoid Morning Joe - the show that makes my bowels clench painfully. Anyway, they showed a "former GM CEO" who is now a "consultant" to GM at the humble non-union rate of $ 3,000.00 per HOUR.

Let me write that again. Three-freakin-thousand American Dollars per freakin-HOUR. Yet all they did during their debacle was whine and moan about the union salaries & benefits that were killing the U.S. auto industry!

He makes more in one day than a newbie auto line worker makes in a year! And after the company performance & success he delivered, of course they'd want to keep consulting him, right?

Fumesucker  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message

8. Union membership has been declining steadily since 1952 or so..

The chances of getting a union job are slim to zero, about the same as the chances of organizing a non-union business.

after which a chart

county worker  (1000+ posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
 
11. We all have a right to join a union and no employer has a right to a non union shop.

The problem is that we can't organize because of the threats to our lives and incomes. To get back to where we were in the 50's is to risk life and income. Those unions did not come about by people sitting back and complaining about the problem. They fought and died for the right to union representation.

Those of us who can should get away from our keyboards and unite to fight for progressive change.

Fumesucker  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
 
13. The trend has been toward less union membership for going on sixty years now..

Since well before the advent of the personal computer, let alone the internet.

So blaming people sitting at their keyboards is not really credible.

My son in law is a classic example, he is in a union, knows he has it made, and yet told me not long ago how he voted "for anyone with an R in front of their name".. He's a good guy and a good father and husband but is politically an idiot despite the fact he has two degrees.

county worker  (1000+ posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
 
18. The keyboard idea is that we should do as much time organizing as we do typing on our keyboards.

We all should put 5 to 10 hours a week in the community fighting for the changes we want. IMHO we do not know how to fight for what we want.

We can all describe the problems but we don't have workable solutions in my opinion. I wonder why we don't have meetings and groups like the tea party people do?

It is my personal belief that if we all felt it was our own personal responsibility to join together to get the things we want and did the things to get them we would get them. We think that we can vote for Obama and Congress and they will make the changes we want. I think we can see that it isn't working.

BrklynLiberal  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
 
9. I think you have made a very valid point....

There are two extremes....

1. I've got mine and screw you if you don't /Neo-con repuke RWingnuts

2. You have what I want! Since I don't have it, you can't have it either!!!!!!

Everyone should be concerned about others...particularly those that are less fortunate or less able to take care of themselves. The sad truth is that none of us knows when we may be the one who is forced to do without...

It would seem to me that the more one has, the more one should be concerned about those less fortunate.

I wish I made enough money to have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes...even if that money would go to subsidize health care for those around me who could not afford it as well as I could.

The Brooklyn primitive should read franksolich's initial comment in the poll (now in the DUmping Ground), asking if we find the primitives boring. 

The more a primitive has, the less the primitive cares about those less fortunate.

Echo In Light  (1000+ posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
 
15. Divide & Rule works like a charm

La Lioness Priyanka  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 04:13 PM
THE UPPER-CASTE MAHARANI PRIMITIVE
Response to Original message

19. because oppressed people see other people like themselves as competition for limited resources

they tend not to question why the resources are so limited in the first place

[The Village Idiot]

 

[Carl]

There has to be a clinical term for a psychosis that would let folks describe the very core of their own dark souls and have no idea they are doing it.

[Chris]

There has to be a clinical term for a psychosis that would let folks describe the very core of their own dark souls and have no idea they are doing it.

Irony?

[GOBUCKS]

When you hire someone, you always hope that your screening process will allow you to avoid someone like TwixVoy, but you can never be sure.

[BlueStateSaint]

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 03:26 PM
#20 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Original message

Why do we eat our own?

Maybe because even the Donner party, and standard coliform bacteria, wouldn't?

[franksolich]

Maybe because even the Donner party, and standard coliform bacteria, wouldn't?

Uh, don't forget the man-eater Alfred Packer too; although he was circa 25-30 years after the man-eating Donner Party.

[AllosaursRus]

UH, pay attention DUmmies.

We used to be the leader in manufacturing in everything from steel to computers. You can't pay $25/hr for puttin' on lug nuts and expect to stay competitive with the third world. Back then what we did have, was the envy of the world for our efficientcy. Not any more. Our manufacturing base has become so bloated with union demands and governmental red tape that even those waiting tables expect all those bennies you espouse. It's impossible to compete with the rest of the world. Back in the day, you were paid for your performance on the job. Not so any more. Ever tried to fire a worthless Teacher?

Get it?

Naw, I knew you wouldn't!

[kenth]

Get it?

Naw, I knew you wouldn't!

Nope, they never do, do they? It's because they never really grew up. They want a 50 dollar an hour job as a cashier, then they want all of their toys to cost peanuts. They don't see the relationship between the two. Instead of daddy, they expect government to steal from us to make up the difference.

[PatriotGame]

county worker  (1000+ posts)      Thu Feb-25-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
 
11. We all have a right to join a union and no employer has a right to a non union shop.

The problem is that we can't organize because of the threats to our lives and incomes. To get back to where we were in the 50's is to risk life and income. Those unions did not come about by people sitting back and complaining about the problem. They fought and died for the right to union representation.

Those of us who can should get away from our keyboards and unite to fight for progressive change.

Unions commit treason against this nation on a daily basis.
Union members are traitors to EVERY principle this nation was founded upon.
Not only should your lives be threatened, every union and their leaders should be outlawed and prosecuted under RICO laws and tossed into the new 0bama gulags!

Research unions and whom started them, you commie cocksuckers!

[PatriotGame]

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 03:26 PM
Original message
Why do we eat our own?
It seems to me that a large amount of the population wants to bring everyone down.

Take teachers - or other government workers - for example. Many people like to attack them for having things EVERY worker should have. Things such as a pension, decent health care, and wages one can support themselves on.

Union workers also seem to get attacked by non-union workers for them same reason.

What the attitude seems to boil down to is "I wish I had those things. So instead of forming a union and doing the organizing (that they did) necessary to get these things I just want them to have those things taken away"

Oh yea because you know, it is best to pay a high school graduate that reads at a 7th grade level, $50 an hour with full pension, retirement, Cadillac medical insurance, 10 weeks of vacation, three weeks of sick leave, and 30 hour work weeks - just to slap go/no-go stickers on windshields in Detroit.
Then you oh so righteous hard working intellectual union workers can create K-Cars ad-infinitum that roll off the assembly line with the wheels falling off, leaking oil, and paint peeling off the roof.
This is precisely why Detroit MUST move welfare PARASITE SUCKERS (Acorn-frauds/blacks/non-English-Speaking_Illegals/crack-Whores) out of their homes into designated reduced area concentrated housing tracts because ALL Of the REAL jobs were eliminated because of high, non-competitive union labor costs and moved to China which REDUCED and REFUSED to pay the taxes needed to support the full city!
Unions ABANDONED Detroit and this is what you have!.

Personally, I hope you parasitic union slug cocksuckers STARVE to death while lying in the gutter in front of your oh so blessed union shop headquarters.

[AllosaursRus]

Oh yea because you know, it is best to pay a high school graduate that reads at a 7th grade level, $50 an hour with full pension, retirement, Cadillac medical insurance, 10 weeks of vacation, three weeks of sick leave, and 30 hour work weeks - just to slap go/no-go stickers on windshields in Detroit.
Then you oh so righteous hard working intellectual union workers can create K-Cars ad-infinitum that roll off the assembly line with the wheels falling off, leaking oil, and paint peeling off the roof.
This is precisely why Detroit MUST move welfare PARASITE SUCKERS (Acorn-frauds/blacks/non-English-Speaking_Illegals/crack-Whores) out of their homes into designated reduced area concentrated housing tracts because ALL Of the REAL jobs were eliminated because of high, non-competitive union labor costs and moved to China which REDUCED and REFUSED to pay the taxes needed to support the full city!
Unions ABANDONED Detroit and this is what you have!.

Personally, I hope you parasitic union slug cocksuckers STARVE to death while lying in the gutter in front of your oh so blessed union shop headquarters.

You and me both, Bubba, you and me both!

I had lazy ass union carpenters work for me when I couldn't find anyone else. I had no choice, I needed bodies! I would start out with them in tow, explaining the job only to find out when I got across the job site, they were still 100 yds behind me. Those worthless excuses for carpenters couldn't, or wouldn't keep up!

Guess who were the first one's I laid off? Worthless bastards!

[dandi]

Okay, DUmbasses, I am going to give you a lesson in reality. 

I gave 22 years to our country in the US Navy and am now a contractor.  So this does give me a little bit of experience with being a "government worker" and a private sector employee.

First and foremost, anyone who tries to compare 20 years of filling potholes or propagandizing children to those who willingly put on the uniform and defend the Constitution is deserving of the title of "****ing retarded"; my apologies to those actually mentally handicapped for being compared to democrats.  There is no comparison to what 20+ years of active duty will do to your body.  NONE.  The difference between the defenders and the city/county/state/federal slackasses is that the defenders have earned a benefit that can never truly be repaid.  My retainer is a ****ing pittance compared to what I gave up to serve my country in uniform.

Second:  **** a union.  **** a union right square in the ass.  The only union I see that still might be useful to their employees is the UMW (United Mine Workers) and I'm now beginning to think they may be irrelevant as well.  The use of unions died many, many years ago when it became apparent that the union bosses were in it only to ensure they were enriched at the expense of their members.  I spent 6 months of last year contracting in a shipyard alongside the shipyard union employees.  The very first thing that struck me was their incompetence.  The second thing that struck me was how lazy a majority of them were.  The third, and most important, thing that struck me was how they were having to deal with the smoke, heat, dirt, noise, filth, and danger for a whole lot less money than I was.  The funniest part of that was they had to pay union dues on top of it.

Fat lot of good the damn union did for them.

I don't need a ****ing union to do my bargaining for me; my talent and worth to my employer are my biggest bargaining chips for pay and benefits.  I don't need a ****ing union to secure a pension for me; I am responsible for the outcome of my old age and my financial solvency during.  I don't need a ****ing union to haggle for my benefits; if I want better insurance, I go out and buy it.  Bottom line, DUmbasses, is that the first person in my company who stands up and says we need a union to collectively bargain away my individual right to negotiate how I feed and take care of my family will get my right hand run through his head.

You useless ****s may need someone to do it for you, the rest of us don't nor do we want you telling us we need it for our own good.

[USA4ME]

county worker

I'm a government worker. Our budget expenses exceeds available revenue by $38 million. So how should we make up the difference? The most popular idea is to cut services, cut salaries and cut retirement benefits. That may work but it is a short term remedy. Those ideas will put more people into a lower quality of life. For our department it means people will not get medical treatment or go homeless while us workers would take pay cuts and have no money for retirement.

Why don't we raise taxes instead?

So to avoid putting some people into a lower quality of life, your solution is to raise taxes and put others into a lower quality of life in their place.

Yeah, you're almost as sharp as a spoon.  Almost.

.

[AllosaursRus]

county worker

I'm a government worker. Our budget expenses exceeds available revenue by $38 million. So how should we make up the difference? The most popular idea is to cut services, cut salaries and cut retirement benefits. That may work but it is a short term remedy. Those ideas will put more people into a lower quality of life. For our department it means people will not get medical treatment or go homeless while us workers would take pay cuts and have no money for retirement.

Why don't we raise taxes instead?

You POS, worthless bastard! When the private sector does a job, they don't start out with 3 times as many employees in order to get the job done! Drive by any, and I mean any. public works project and count how many are standing alongside watching the one working! There are no exceptions! Not one!

You asshat union pukes could cut the labor force in government by 2/3 and still get the job done! You just don't want to have to sweat!

[Karin]

Quite the post by Wasp69 on page 1.   

[thundley4]

I'm a government worker. Our budget expenses exceeds available revenue by $38 million. So how should we make up the difference? The most popular idea is to cut services, cut salaries and cut retirement benefits. That may work but it is a short term remedy.

No DUmmie, those are long term solutions. Raising taxes is the short term, because eventually, there is no one left to raise taxes on.

[delilahmused]

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Thu Feb-25-10 05:11 PM
#20 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #12
 
22. Most of the pension funds are contributed by other government workers

In my state, for example, all government workers are REQUIRED to contribute 7% of their annual pay to the pension plan.... which is then paid out to government workers that have already retired.

You make it sound like government workers are not paying in to the plan, and instead the plan is being funded by tax payer dollars.

I don't know - I suppose in some states it may work that way? But in some the government workers are the ones who fund their own plan.

And what part of that 7% wasn't paid out of the pocket of an American taxpayer? Every single dime a government employee earns was taken from the earnings of people in the private sector, even that measly 7%. They have to pay 7%? BFD! How much does the government (i.e. the US private sector worker) kick in over and above that amount?

Cindie

[Duchess]

There has to be a clinical term for a psychosis that would let folks describe the very core of their own dark souls and have no idea they are doing it.

Amen! Touting unions as the solution to the problem of envy and "getting your own" are like pouring gas on a fire! Unions are the thin tip of the wedge of wealth redistribution and socialism, which are just envy writ large by the government.

[AllosaursRus]

And what part of that 7% wasn't paid out of the pocket of an American taxpayer? Every single dime a government employee earns was taken from the earnings of people in the private sector, even that measly 7%. They have to pay 7%? BFD! How much does the government (i.e. the US private sector worker) kick in over and above that amount?

Cindie

Leave it to a DUmmie to complain about the money we give him!

[dandi]

Quite the post by Wasp69 on page 1.