Author Topic: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan  (Read 7280 times)

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Offline Wretched Excess

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Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« on: March 12, 2008, 12:46:53 AM »
Quote
Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo in Mich.

Barack Obama's national campaign has "concerns" about a proposed vote-by-mail caucus and his Michigan chairman flatly condemned it Tuesday, taking the air from an idea that top Democrats hoped would resolve the impasse between the state and the national Democratic Party.

David Axelrod, Obama's senior strategist, said the campaign is reserving final judgment about write-in caucuses in Michigan and Florida -- both of which ran afoul of national party rules by holding January primaries that Hillary Clinton won -- until a plan is officially on the table. "But obviously there are concerns about a mail-in vote. I mean, there are concerns about eligibility, ballot security," he said.

"The state of Oregon has mail-in voting, and it took them more than a decade to perfect it to the point where they felt that they could run a statewide campaign through mail-in votes. And now we're going to turn this process over to parties within the states to run on with a matter of weeks to prepare."

The national party won't recognize Michigan's and Florida's convention delegates because their contests were held too early.

But the tight race between Clinton and Obama is creating interest in do-over contests that would meet the party's objections, and allow delegates from the two states to be seated this summer in Denver. A mail-in caucus is being floated by a blue-ribbon panel of Michigan Democrats, and Florida is considering one, too.

State Sen. Tupac Hunter, D-Detroit, said a mail-in caucus "is clearly the wrong path.

"We don't like it one bit," Hunter said. "It disenfranchises people who need to participate and there are many questions with regard to security."

Hunter said the Obama campaign will accept nothing but a 50-50 split of Michigan delegates between Clinton and Obama, who removed his name from the January ballot here in protest of the early date.


Obama told CNN last night he has "some concerns" about vote by mail, but added of the Michigan-Florida quandary, "I'm sure it will get sorted out."

The Clinton camp favors do-overs.

East Lansing developer and Clinton supporter Joel Ferguson, said the vote-by-mail plan "can work if people want it to work. We're not reinventing the wheel. It's been tried in Oregon.

"Based on the time and situation, this is the best plan available."

Meanwhile, Governors Jon Corzine of New Jersey and Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania wrote in Tuesday's Washington Post that the Democratic National Committee should pay for new contests in Florida and Michigan.

"We'll even volunteer to help raise the funds," the two governors wrote. "If we don't pay now, we surely will in November."

The money piece is key for any successful repeat votes in Michigan and Florida.

Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm welcomed the offer.

"It is generous of them, and we think it is great they are willing to step up and help raise the money," said Granholm spokeswoman Liz Boyd.

DNC rules require any redo to be conducted by June 10. It won't be easy to come up with the money for a do-over process that all sides can agree upon -- and to convince Democratic voters to buy into it.

For example, Donna Brown, a social worker from Detroit, says she voted for Clinton and is "disgusted" that her Jan. 15 vote isn't being counted.

"I won't vote in a do-over. This is all to help Barack Obama. If she's not on the ticket, I am not voting in November," Brown said.

Plans for redoing the contests by mail-in voting are moving quickly in Michigan and Florida.

Such intense feelings are erupting because of the closeness of the race and the possibility that a redo might determine the nominee.

U.S. Sen. Carl Levin, D-Detroit, who is part of the panel hoping within days to have a mail-in vote plan, estimates it would cost "several million dollars."

Florida officials expect a similar contest by mail would cost about $10 million.

Corzine and Rendell proposed raising money for the DNC to pay for it. The DNC is adamantly opposed to that idea.

DNC spokesman Damien LaVera said the national party is sticking to its position that it will not spend its money for redos.

"Right now, our focus is on getting proposals from the state parties for alternative contests consistent with our rules," LaVera said. "We've made clear our resources will be directed to keeping John McCain out of the White House."

Under federal election law, individuals can give $28,500 in one year to a national party. So if individuals contributed to the DNC for the redos in Florida and Michigan, that amount would count against their annual limit -- and thereby leave less money for the DNC to use against McCain.


Corzine and Rendell officials didn't return calls about whether the governors might set up a non-DNC money pot.

Michigan Democratic Party spokeswoman Liz Kerr said state law allows an unlimited amount of money to be given to pay for a redo.

Kerr said it would be "perfectly legal" for a group to raise money and give it to the Michigan Democratic Party to run another contest.

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damn, this is complicated. :-)

The BarackStar! wants to just arbitrarily split the michigan delgates 50-50?  hell, that's the equivalent of disenfranchising them;  that approach certainly makes no attempt to determine the will of michigan voters.  it's as arbitrary as a coin toss.

and as the candidate of unity and healing, The BarackStar! certainly doesn't seem to give a damn about unity in the cases of michigan and florida.  their strategy is, if not to ignore the voters of both states entirely, to at least recognize them in such a way as render them as irrelevant to the nomination process as possible.  "count every vote", indeed. :whatever:

 

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2008, 03:05:32 PM »

am I the only one that can't get enough of this re-do thing? :???:

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2008, 08:17:24 PM »
am I the only one that can't get enough of this re-do thing? :???:

Better entertainment cannot be found on any of the internets for free :D They are opening such a Pandora's Box with this whole thing. And the Obamanation 50-50 thing ? That's pure arrogance. He started off cordial, but now that he is convinced he can beat the Hildebeast he has become mighty cocky. I hope this trend continues.

Offline Tess Anderson

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2008, 02:49:12 PM »
He's always seemed cocky to me.

Somebody needs to buy Donna a clue - she makes NO sense at all here:

Quote
For example, Donna Brown, a social worker from Detroit, says she voted for Clinton and is "disgusted" that her Jan. 15 vote isn't being counted.

"I won't vote in a do-over. This is all to help Barack Obama. If she's not on the ticket, I am not voting in November," Brown said.

Her vote was never supposed to be counted, and it makes no sense refusing to vote again now, since this is all to help her goddess Hillary.

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2008, 06:32:27 PM »
He's always seemed cocky to me.

Somebody needs to buy Donna a clue - she makes NO sense at all here:

Quote
For example, Donna Brown, a social worker from Detroit, says she voted for Clinton and is "disgusted" that her Jan. 15 vote isn't being counted.

"I won't vote in a do-over. This is all to help Barack Obama. If she's not on the ticket, I am not voting in November," Brown said.

Her vote was never supposed to be counted, and it makes no sense refusing to vote again now, since this is all to help her goddess Hillary.

taking the actual dem candidates out of it, and speaking only theoretically, all of these "you can't change the rules after the game has been played" sports analogies are a really poor excuse for disenfranchising a couple of million voters . . . even if they are democrats.

howard dean put his thing down on the florida democrat party, but the people that have been deprived of their rights as citizens are ordinary people.  this was a lousy decision by howard dean, PERIOD.

 . . . and I don't think any organization should have the authority to tell a state when it can or cannot hold it's primary. 


Offline Texacon

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2008, 06:50:46 PM »
This shit is hilarious!  What are they worried about .... teh Rove and the Rethugmakemewantapukicans are the only ones who 'steal' elections.  The Dems are ALWAYS on the up and up ..... right?   :rotf:

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2008, 06:53:23 PM »

am I the only one that can't get enough of this re-do thing? :???:

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2008, 07:08:22 PM »

am I the only one that can't get enough of this re-do thing? :???:

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake

well, other than heisenburg's uncertainty principal, I'm not sure how observing a thing changes the behavior of a thing.

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2008, 09:22:58 AM »

am I the only one that can't get enough of this re-do thing? :???:

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake

well, other than heisenburg's uncertainty principal, I'm not sure how observing a thing changes the behavior of a thing.

C'mon, Wretch . . . you know that one of the characteristics of a DUmmy is if they send the event enough "healing white light," it can be so . . .  :mental:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2008, 10:12:18 AM »
So, this is a cunundrum: For whom do the dead vote in Michigan?

I suspect it is mrs clinton, but would be interested in opinions.
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Offline Tess Anderson

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2008, 03:25:14 PM »

taking the actual dem candidates out of it, and speaking only theoretically, all of these "you can't change the rules after the game has been played" sports analogies are a really poor excuse for disenfranchising a couple of million voters . . . even if they are democrats.

It also could be compared to getting a second shot at the Super Bowl. As long as the Democrat Party has those "superdelegates", there's never going to be anything democratic much about their primary process.

howard dean put his thing down on the florida democrat party, but the people that have been deprived of their rights as citizens are ordinary people.  this was a lousy decision by howard dean, PERIOD.

Then he should have never made the threat to unseat them in the first place - I think he just now realized the BHO wouldn't win against McCain.


 . . . and I don't think any organization should have the authority to tell a state when it can or cannot hold it's primary. 

Well, if something's not done, they'll start having the 2012 primary around November 15.

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2008, 06:53:57 PM »

taking the actual dem candidates out of it, and speaking only theoretically, all of these "you can't change the rules after the game has been played" sports analogies are a really poor excuse for disenfranchising a couple of million voters . . . even if they are democrats.

It also could be compared to getting a second shot at the Super Bowl. As long as the Democrat Party has those "superdelegates", there's never going to be anything democratic much about their primary process.

howard dean put his thing down on the florida democrat party, but the people that have been deprived of their rights as citizens are ordinary people.  this was a lousy decision by howard dean, PERIOD.

Then he should have never made the threat to unseat them in the first place - I think he just now realized the BHO wouldn't win against McCain.


 . . . and I don't think any organization should have the authority to tell a state when it can or cannot hold it's primary. 


Well, if something's not done, they'll start having the 2012 primary around November 15.

so be it.  look, the only reason the dems are dinking with the schedule is because they want it front loaded enough to guarantee that an establishment dem gets the nomination, but not so front loaded that an outsider steals the thing while riding an obama-like wave of popularity.

I was actually casting widespread disdain on the whole sports metaphor genre as it has been applied to the revote.  it's just silly.  we are talking about literally disenfranchising (as opposed to the infantile rants that we have been hearing from the black box people) several million people.  trying to get your head around that notion with a sports metaphor is, well, it is to fail to understand the gravity of the situation.



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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2008, 03:04:44 PM »
He's always seemed cocky to me.

Somebody needs to buy Donna a clue - she makes NO sense at all here:

Quote
For example, Donna Brown, a social worker from Detroit, says she voted for Clinton and is "disgusted" that her Jan. 15 vote isn't being counted.

"I won't vote in a do-over. This is all to help Barack Obama. If she's not on the ticket, I am not voting in November," Brown said.

Her vote was never supposed to be counted, and it makes no sense refusing to vote again now, since this is all to help her goddess Hillary.

taking the actual dem candidates out of it, and speaking only theoretically, all of these "you can't change the rules after the game has been played" sports analogies are a really poor excuse for disenfranchising a couple of million voters . . . even if they are democrats.

howard dean put his thing down on the florida democrat party, but the people that have been deprived of their rights as citizens are ordinary people.  this was a lousy decision by howard dean, PERIOD.

 . . . and I don't think any organization should have the authority to tell a state when it can or cannot hold it's primary. 


It was the republican legislature that was at fault when they decided to go against the DNC.  They are the ones that decided to do that to the Florida Citizenry, not Dean.  Dean told the legislature not to vote before a certain date and they told him to get screwed.  Didn't the republican Florida primary lose half of their delegates? 

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 08:45:18 AM »
It was the republican legislature that was at fault when they decided to go against the DNC.  They are the ones that decided to do that to the Florida Citizenry, not Dean.  Dean told the legislature not to vote before a certain date and they told him to get screwed.  Didn't the republican Florida primary lose half of their delegates? 

Firstly - you are wrong.
Quote from: NYTimes
The Florida House voted unanimously to move it up on Thursday, a week after the Senate approved the measure. In the same legislation, it approved Gov. Charlie Crist’s plan to replace the touch-screen voting machines used in many of Florida’s counties with paper ballots counted by scanning machines.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/us/politics/04florida.html

The Democrats seemed to not have a problem with this decision. Unless you want to make the case that they were hoodwinked by the Republicans back in May 2007 when they were aware of the major issues it would generate for the Dems months later when two of them would be virtually tied for the nomination.

Secondly, yes - the Republicans lost half of their delegates to the RNC for this maneuver, and if Howard Dean had the same level of foresight, he would have followed suit, and this would be a nonissue. Florida's house and senate could not direct Dean's response.

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 08:55:42 PM »
He's always seemed cocky to me.

Somebody needs to buy Donna a clue - she makes NO sense at all here:

Quote
For example, Donna Brown, a social worker from Detroit, says she voted for Clinton and is "disgusted" that her Jan. 15 vote isn't being counted.

"I won't vote in a do-over. This is all to help Barack Obama. If she's not on the ticket, I am not voting in November," Brown said.

Her vote was never supposed to be counted, and it makes no sense refusing to vote again now, since this is all to help her goddess Hillary.

taking the actual dem candidates out of it, and speaking only theoretically, all of these "you can't change the rules after the game has been played" sports analogies are a really poor excuse for disenfranchising a couple of million voters . . . even if they are democrats.

howard dean put his thing down on the florida democrat party, but the people that have been deprived of their rights as citizens are ordinary people.  this was a lousy decision by howard dean, PERIOD.

 . . . and I don't think any organization should have the authority to tell a state when it can or cannot hold it's primary. 


It was the republican legislature that was at fault when they decided to go against the DNC.  They are the ones that decided to do that to the Florida Citizenry, not Dean.  Dean told the legislature not to vote before a certain date and they told him to get screwed.  Didn't the republican Florida primary lose half of their delegates? 

you are incorrect.  the measure passed the florida house unanimously, and passed in the senate with (iirc) 2 votes against it.  it was as bipartisan an effort as could be conceived.  no one thought howlin' howie would disenfranchise the exact same state that had just witnessed the hanging chad debacle a few years before.

no one, including howard dean, should be able to tell a state when it can hold a primary election.

Offline Lauri

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2008, 12:06:25 AM »

am I the only one that can't get enough of this re-do thing? :???:


meh, im so so interested.. our guy has been picked. im not as curious about hilary and barack having slap fights every day. there is SO much to critisize in each of them, it could be a long, long, LONG next eight months..

but i also hope it doesnt stop :-)

Offline Chris_

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2008, 12:17:54 AM »
He's always seemed cocky to me.

Somebody needs to buy Donna a clue - she makes NO sense at all here:

Quote
For example, Donna Brown, a social worker from Detroit, says she voted for Clinton and is "disgusted" that her Jan. 15 vote isn't being counted.

"I won't vote in a do-over. This is all to help Barack Obama. If she's not on the ticket, I am not voting in November," Brown said.

Her vote was never supposed to be counted, and it makes no sense refusing to vote again now, since this is all to help her goddess Hillary.

taking the actual dem candidates out of it, and speaking only theoretically, all of these "you can't change the rules after the game has been played" sports analogies are a really poor excuse for disenfranchising a couple of million voters . . . even if they are democrats.

howard dean put his thing down on the florida democrat party, but the people that have been deprived of their rights as citizens are ordinary people.  this was a lousy decision by howard dean, PERIOD.

 . . . and I don't think any organization should have the authority to tell a state when it can or cannot hold it's primary. 


It was the republican legislature that was at fault when they decided to go against the DNC.  They are the ones that decided to do that to the Florida Citizenry, not Dean.  Dean told the legislature not to vote before a certain date and they told him to get screwed.  Didn't the republican Florida primary lose half of their delegates? 

you are incorrect.  the measure passed the florida house unanimously, and passed in the senate with (iirc) 2 votes against it.  it was as bipartisan an effort as could be conceived.  no one thought howlin' howie would disenfranchise the exact same state that had just witnessed the hanging chad debacle a few years before.

no one, including howard dean, should be able to tell a state when it can hold a primary election.

There is no USC mention of political parties.  The DNC can make any rules it wants.  If you and I and someone else (like maybe Schade) were to create a political party and decided we could only vote if we rubbed blue mud in our navels, then that would be the rule.  We could decide we have to run naked after the solstice.  Again, no rights violation.

You confuse primaries with constitutionally identified elections.  The fact that many states piggyback local elective issues with the so-called primary elections is just happenstance.
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Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2008, 08:42:44 AM »
He's always seemed cocky to me.

Somebody needs to buy Donna a clue - she makes NO sense at all here:

Quote
For example, Donna Brown, a social worker from Detroit, says she voted for Clinton and is "disgusted" that her Jan. 15 vote isn't being counted.

"I won't vote in a do-over. This is all to help Barack Obama. If she's not on the ticket, I am not voting in November," Brown said.

Her vote was never supposed to be counted, and it makes no sense refusing to vote again now, since this is all to help her goddess Hillary.

taking the actual dem candidates out of it, and speaking only theoretically, all of these "you can't change the rules after the game has been played" sports analogies are a really poor excuse for disenfranchising a couple of million voters . . . even if they are democrats.

howard dean put his thing down on the florida democrat party, but the people that have been deprived of their rights as citizens are ordinary people.  this was a lousy decision by howard dean, PERIOD.

 . . . and I don't think any organization should have the authority to tell a state when it can or cannot hold it's primary. 


It was the republican legislature that was at fault when they decided to go against the DNC.  They are the ones that decided to do that to the Florida Citizenry, not Dean.  Dean told the legislature not to vote before a certain date and they told him to get screwed.  Didn't the republican Florida primary lose half of their delegates? 

you are incorrect.  the measure passed the florida house unanimously, and passed in the senate with (iirc) 2 votes against it.  it was as bipartisan an effort as could be conceived.  no one thought howlin' howie would disenfranchise the exact same state that had just witnessed the hanging chad debacle a few years before.

no one, including howard dean, should be able to tell a state when it can hold a primary election.

There is no USC mention of political parties.  The DNC can make any rules it wants.  If you and I and someone else (like maybe Schade) were to create a political party and decided we could only vote if we rubbed blue mud in our navels, then that would be the rule.  We could decide we have to run naked after the solstice.  Again, no rights violation.

You confuse primaries with constitutionally identified elections.  The fact that many states piggyback local elective issues with the so-called primary elections is just happenstance.


I confuse nothing of the sort. 

first, you attack a position that no one is defending.  then you attempt to usurp the authority of the florida legislature with the sophomoric observation that federal law is silent on the concept of political parties (which may be true if you want to dumb the notion down enough, but upon the subject of elections, it NOT; this has been pointed out in other florida/michigan revote threads), and that therefore, anything that the DNC may want to do may be done legally.  the whole construct is a logical disaster.

I am sure that your next post will be something along the lines of  "I have pointed out the law in this matter.  I am comprehensively correct on this issue."

Offline Lauri

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2008, 08:43:02 AM »
ok, i get all that.. but i still see no problem with moving up the dates.

the primaries are held one way or another; what does it matter what the date is? in fact, i like this idea of having them all on one day... this process is too freaking long.

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2008, 09:00:55 AM »
ok, i get all that.. but i still see no problem with moving up the dates.

the primaries are held one way or another; what does it matter what the date is? in fact, i like this idea of having them all on one day... this process is too freaking long.

ultimately, it's because the parties want to rig the system.  they want the primary process to be front loaded enough to guarantee an early nominee, but not so front loaded that a non-establishment candidate sneaks through the back door and wins the nomination.


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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2008, 09:02:17 AM »
He's always seemed cocky to me.

Somebody needs to buy Donna a clue - she makes NO sense at all here:

Quote
For example, Donna Brown, a social worker from Detroit, says she voted for Clinton and is "disgusted" that her Jan. 15 vote isn't being counted.

"I won't vote in a do-over. This is all to help Barack Obama. If she's not on the ticket, I am not voting in November," Brown said.

Her vote was never supposed to be counted, and it makes no sense refusing to vote again now, since this is all to help her goddess Hillary.
You have to be careful when discussing Detroit and common sense...they've not gone together well for years.
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Offline Tess Anderson

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2008, 07:39:13 PM »
ok, i get all that.. but i still see no problem with moving up the dates.

the primaries are held one way or another; what does it matter what the date is? in fact, i like this idea of having them all on one day... this process is too freaking long.

ultimately, it's because the parties want to rig the system.  they want the primary process to be front loaded enough to guarantee an early nominee, but not so front loaded that a non-establishment candidate sneaks through the back door and wins the nomination.


Ya, I think the GOP does the most "front-loading", since they don't have that superdelegate system in place. Super Tuesday has long been encouraged by both parties to decide the winner, start the reuniting process.


But many states don't like to be in ST - lost in the shuffle, where they're not "special" - NH has a state law that they have to be first, and other states keep trying to go earlier and earlier.

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Obama's camp wary of mail-in redo election in Michigan
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2008, 07:49:30 PM »
ok, i get all that.. but i still see no problem with moving up the dates.

the primaries are held one way or another; what does it matter what the date is? in fact, i like this idea of having them all on one day... this process is too freaking long.

ultimately, it's because the parties want to rig the system.  they want the primary process to be front loaded enough to guarantee an early nominee, but not so front loaded that a non-establishment candidate sneaks through the back door and wins the nomination.


Ya, I think the GOP does the most "front-loading", since they don't have that superdelegate system in place. Super Tuesday has long been encouraged by both parties to decide the winner, start the reuniting process.


But many states don't like to be in ST - lost in the shuffle, where they're not "special" - NH has a state law that they have to be first, and other states keep trying to go earlier and earlier.


the republicans get around this whole problem by the "winner takes all" approach to delegate distribution.  it's our idea of "fairness";  if you want the delegates, win the state.  just don't whine. :-)