Have we banned TNO yet?
LAGC (561 posts) Mon Feb-15-10 01:55 PM
Original message http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x236270
Why do Christians get away with murder?
I was just talking to a friend of mine who volunteers for a legal internship with the ACLU, and as part of her job she goes inside prisons and interviews prisoners. One colorful inmate she just interviewed recently is serving a Life sentence for murdering a state cop. Now, the discussion was supposed to be about prison conditions and how inmates are being treated in there, but during his interview this particular inmate confided in my friend that "I'm not worried about what happens in here, because I've been saved, I'm going to heaven after this life is over."
Now, I can understand how those who have nothing left to look forward to in life would want there to be something better afterwards... but the thing that struck her was that this inmate almost seemed to express glee that he had "gotten away with it", gotten away with murder. After all, all you have to do according to Christian theology is commit a heinous crime then simply ask Jesus for forgiveness, accept him into your heart, "become saved", and then suddenly no matter what you've done, you've just gotten away with (in this case) murder!
How is that fair, that someone who lives their life doing good and never harming another individual goes to hell, yet someone who murders, rapes, child molests, etc. gets to go to heaven simply because he mumbles a few words under his breath to a make-believe deity after the fact? Some religions I will never understand...
I don't think you really understand how Christianity works...
stray cat (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-15-10 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. If you don't believe in heaven then you don't believe they do
and self defeatists defeat themselves. (thanks frenchycat)
Raspberry (219 posts) Mon Feb-15-10 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well, considering he's sitting in prison--
--means he DIDN'T get away with murder. He is serving human justice. Divine justice is something totally different, and I don't think we're necessarily supposed to understand it, or think it's fair (in human terms.)
Who's mole is this?
rd_kent (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-15-10 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Becasue its all a bunch of made up, hypocritical BS!
That guy is not going to heaven because there IS NO HEAVEN.
The main problem with discussions of religion at the DUmp is that there is no-one there who can talk about religion in a rational way.
blueworld (811 posts) Mon Feb-15-10 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Forgive me for being simplistic, but it isn't fair & it's rather delusional
Most Christians, I think, believe in "faith and works", not simply faith and "whatever I do I'm off the hook". At least that's my spiritual belief. I also think it's really unfair to lump all Christians in with that bunch. But, whatever, I certainly understand your position & agree with it.
I am reading a book now on the English Civil War. You want to talk what is and what isn't Christianity- study that time period.
rd_kent (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-15-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. This is not a dig on YOU, personally....
But until christians like yourself and others that describe themselves like you do, STAND UP AND GET VOCAL about crap like this, you will continue to be "lumped in" with all christians. Silence is the same as approval.
maybe I am just think, but I am not getting kent's point.
Goblinmonger (1000+ posts) Tue Feb-16-10 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
29. So most Christians are Catholics?
I don't get that impression especially from people on here. The "faith and works" concept is one that has heaped a lot of grief on the Catholics from the Protestant religions which primarily base salvation on faith alone. I agree that Catholic may be the single largest sect in the US but I don't think it would be bigger than the Protestant sects put together.
The entire English Civil War((s)-there were three) was fought about this little concept. It was thought in some quarters that life was pre-destined, and there were only a set few who would get into heaven. However, no one knew who was going to, so you better be good, regardless. Others said it was up to the person to live a good life and thus attain heaven. People were killed because of the difference in belief.
billymike (52 posts) Mon Feb-15-10 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. words
Many evangelical revisions of the Bible--which itself has been revised so often to meet political/governmental specifications--have changed "kill" in the ten commandments to "murder," "thou shalt not murder", which allows for "killing" the enemy du jour. They parse words, every one of them, it's a deflection tactic, justifying the absolute break from the core of Jesus' worldview, war is truly and explicitly the opposite pole. Sorta anti-Christ, if you ask me.
of course, it's not a rationalization, but a clarification on the part of translating hebrew into english.
Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-15-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. And that is the correct theological position
Edited on Mon Feb-15-10 05:32 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
True remorse and repentance are necessary conditions for forgiveness.
When I was growing up, one of our neighbor kids got the idea that it was OK to hit someone if you said "I'm sorry" immediately afterward.
The fundies' approach is like that neighbor kid's.
True story. About thirty years ago, there was a case in which a Yale student murdered his girlfriend in a jealous rage. He ran away from the scene and went to a Catholic church, where he confessed to the priest and begged for absolution. The priest told him, "I can't absolve you unless you're willing to take the consequences of your act. I'll go to the police with you if you're afraid, but you must turn yourself in."
Again, the priest was stating the standard Christian theological position.
oddly, the bolded part is also the Islamist's approach. Allah knows man is weak and so when I sin and ask forgiveness, He gives it.
msongs (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-15-10 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. nobody would believe that religion if it didn't approve the most vile behavior lol nt
not sure what msons si trying to say- but I think he/she/it gets that alot.
troubledamerican (1000+ posts) Mon Feb-15-10 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. True story -- the Christian-ists made a pact with Lucifer.
R-o-n-a-l-d
W-i-l-s-o-n
R-e-a-g-a-n
6, 6, 6
but, you don't really beleive in religion, so it doesn't matter.
The Number of the Beast is described in the Book of Revelation 13:17-18. The original Greek reads:
17 καὶ ἵνα μή τις δÏνηται ἀγοÏάσαι á¼¢ πωλῆσαι εἰ μὴ ὠἔχων τὸ χάÏαγμα, τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θηÏίου á¼¢ τὸν á¼€Ïιθμὸν τοῦ ὀνόματος αá½Ï„οῦ. 18 ὧδε ἡ σοφία á¼ÏƒÏ„ίν· ὠἔχων νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν á¼€Ïιθμὸν τοῦ θηÏίου, á¼€Ïιθμὸς Î³á½°Ï á¼€Î½Î¸Ïώπου á¼ÏƒÏ„ίν· καὶ á½ á¼€Ïιθμὸς αá½Ï„οῦ ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.Most scholars believe that 666 refers to Roman Emperor Nero (whose name, written in Aramaic, can be valued at 666, using the Hebrew numerology of gematria), a manner of speaking against the emperor without the Roman authorities knowing.
Gematria or gimatria (Hebrew: גימטריה‎, gÄ“maá¹riyÄ) is a system of assigning numerical value to a word or phrase, in the belief that words or phrases with identical numerical values bear some relation to each other, or bear some relation to the number itself as it may apply to a person's age, the calendar year, or the like. The word "gematria" is generally held to derive from Greek geÅmetriÄ, "geometry", which was used a translation of gÄ“maá¹riyÄ, though some scholars believe it to derive from Greek grammateia, rather; it's possible that both words had an influence on the formation of the Hebrew word.
A few ancient manuscripts of the Revelation say the number is 616, fifty less than the more well known number. A possible reason for the discrepancy lies in early translation. On the assumption that the Revelation was meant to be distributed among the Early Christians, it could very well be assumed that occasionally someone may have used the Latin spelling of Nero's name (Nero Caesar), so the total value of the gematria would be 616.
The early Church father Irenaeus knew several occurrences of the 616-variant but regarded them as a scribal error and affirmed that the number 666 stood "in all the most approved and ancient copies" and is attested by "those men who saw John face to face".
In May 2005, it was reported that scholars at Oxford University using advanced imaging techniques had been able to read previously illegible portions of the earliest known record of the Book of Revelation (a 1,700 year old papyrus), from the Oxyrhynchus site, Papyrus 115 or P115, dating one century after Irenaeus. The fragment gives the Number of the Beast as 616 (chi, iota, sigma), rather than the majority text 666 (chi, xi, sigma).[1] The other early witness Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) has it written in full: hexakosiai deka hex (lit. six hundred sixteen).
Significantly, P115 aligns with Codex Alexandrinus (A) and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) which are generally regarded as providing the best testimony to Revelation. Thus, P115 has superior testimony to that of P47 which aligns with Codex Sinaiticus and together form the second-best witness to the Book of Revelation. This has led some scholars to conclude that 616 is the original number of the beast
"The figure 616 is given in one of the two best manuscripts, C (Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, Paris), by the Latin version of Tyconius (DCXVI, ed. Souter in the Journal of Theology, SE, April 1913), and by an ancient Armenian version (ed. Conybaere, 1907). Irenaeus knew about it [the 616 reading], but did not adopt it (Haer. v.30,3), Jerome adopted it (De Monogramm., ed. Dom G Morin in the Rev. Benedictine, 1903). It is probably original. The number 666 has been substituted for 616 either by analogy with 888, the [Greek] number of Jesus (Deissmann), or because it is a triangular number, the sum of the first 36 numbers (1+2+3+4+5+6...+36 = 666)".
Professor David C. Parker, Professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and Paleography at the University of Birmingham, thinks that 616, although less memorable than 666, is the original. Dr. Ellen Aitken said: “Scholars have argued for a long time over this, and it now seems that 616 was the original number of the beast. It's probably about 100 years before any other version."
Most Bible scholars believe that 666 refers to the Roman Emperor Nero. Nero was responsible for some especially vicious attacks on Christians in Rome. The Book of Revelation was written after Nero committed suicide, but many people thought that he had not died and had come out of hiding in the East to lead this new wave of persecution against Christians in the late first century. The Greek spelling, “NerÅn Kaisar,†transliterates into Hebrew as â€œ× ×¨×•×Ÿ קסר†or “nrvn qsrâ€. Adding the corresponding values yields 666, as shown:
Resh (ר) Samech (ס) Qof (ק) Noon (× ) Vav (ו) Resh (ר) Noon (× ) TOTAL
200+ 60+ 100+ 50+ 6+ 200+ 50 = 666
By contrast, the Latin title for Nero is spelled simply “NerÅ Caesar,†which transliterates to â€œ× ×¨×• קסר†or “nrv qsr†and has a value of 616, which may explain that variation.[28]
Resh(ר) Samech (ס) Qof (ק) Vav (ו) Resh (ר) Noon (× ) TOTAL
200+ 60+ 100+ 6+ 200+ 50 = 616
But, then, these things intrest me.
