primitives discuss pedalling problems

[franksolich]

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7616362

Oh my.

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 07:52 AM
PEDRO PICASSO, #11 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Original message

The problem with the Toyota gas pedal explanations

So Toyota is sticking to its story (pun intended) about the accelerator pedal merely sticking, as opposed to the more plausible explanation of a larger problem with its drive-by-wire design. "More plausible" are my words. Here's why: if you were driving along at 50 mph and your gas pedal got stuck, why would the car then ACCELERATE to a much faster speed? In a couple of the most notable instances, to over 100 mph?

Is Toyota claiming the floor mats -- or in the latest version of the story, "friction" in the pedal assembly, is actually drawing the pedal down toward the floor? Really? That doesn't sound like sticking to me, it almost sounds like magic! A piece of carpet that grabs the pedal from under one's foot and draws it all the way down to the floor. Or, in the latest story, friction which actually gets slippery and does the same thing.

OR, a failure of or design/programming error with an entirely electronic accelerator system, a relatively new design compared to the old tried and tested mechanical accelerator. This "sticking" story that seems to actually involve self-movement, just doesn't make sense to me.

It's a big campfire; Pedro Picasso pulled in the primitives on this one.

sendero (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
 
1. I've been following this for a while now..

... first it was "floor mats" and now it is "condensation affecting plastic".

Bullshit. They have a software error in their throttle control system. I'd bet money on it.

madokie  (1000+ posts)      Mon Feb-01-10 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
 
3. Sure they do

I worked with my brother all during the 80's converting the local foundries machinery from an old analog type control system, relay cabinets, to a digital one, plc's, and you won't believe the hundreds of time the electrical engineer would say to me go check and see if you have this wired right and it was always wired right, it always was in the programing but that didn't stop him from trying to shift the blame over to me and my brother.

Same thing that TOYota is doing now, trying to shift the blame. I never had one holiday off work during that period cause we'd spend weeks sometimes months getting ready then when a long weekend came up we'd actually do the brain transplant. I made lots of money during that time too but after 10 plus years of that I got totally burned out.

Subdivisions  (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
 
62. If the software is the issue, couldn't the fix be to patch the software, rather than replacing mechanical parts? Seems if it's a programming problem, that could be found, fixed, and then uploaded to the vehicle.

Do we know yet exactly what is is Toyota is doing to make the fix?

And on and on the campfire burns.....

LeftyMom  (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
 
10. A lot of those drivers probably never had to put a car in neutral.

If one learns to drive on an automatic and never drives anything else, there's really no call to put a car in neutral unless it breaks down and you need to push. People made a big deal of that one guy in LA being a CHP officer and thus a trained driver, but he was trained to drive a land yacht with an automatic and a shifter on the steering column, and in his billion miles on the road in the line of duty he probably never put it in neutral once.

Now compare that to a Lexus with a really wonky gear shifter pattern, and I can see how he didn't think to put it in neutral (or couldn't figure out how in an emergency.)

Manual transmission. Actually having full control of your car. Wave of the future people, I'm telling ya.

SteveM  (1000+ posts)      Mon Feb-01-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
 
21. The demise of the "stick shift" was predicted -- just before the '73 oil crunch...

Then, wonder of wonders, manual transmission made a big come back, given their significantly higher MPG capabilities (that was also the year when Japanese cars -- esp. Toyota -- carved out its first big market shares at the expense of Detroit. What's more, in most standard shifts, you can safely push-start your car if you have a battery or starter failure.

Years ago, when I taught basic auto repair in non-credit courses, I instructed folks in how to shift into neutral (standard or automatic) if your accelerator stuck. Yes, Margaret, it happened back in the days, too. The most notorious one was a variety of 2 bbl. Rochesters on early 70s Buick/Olds cars where the choke high-speed idle cam (a series of stair-steps cut into a cam, controlled by the choke links), which would flip over inadvertently if you "stomped" the pedal to reduce the high-revving engine (when cold). The cam, thus "perverted" and upside down, then became the curb idle stop -- at over 2,500 RPMs!

I was a witness in one wreck where the driver panicked and weaved through traffic before t-boning another vehicle. He didn't know to shift into "N." And neither did the attorneys involved in the case!

tonysam  (1000+ posts)      Mon Feb-01-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
 
100. They aren't even that great on gas mileage anymore.

Anybody who buys one needs his or her head examined. I want both of my hands on the steering wheel.

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 05:36 PM
PEDRO PICASSO, #11 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #100

101. Most Americans don't keep both hands on the wheel -- texting eating a Whopper

I actually like manuals, and drove only manual for until my mid-thirties until I got "clutch knee." After about a billions shifts in various cars, my left knee was starting to pop. As for your post, I still rarely drive with both hands on the wheel unless the weather is bad or in particularly heavy traffic. It's either one had at 12-1 o'clock, or one or both hands at 6 o'clock.

Kalun D  (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
 
33. Shifting

Shifting is controlled by the software but not on all shift changes. The initial shift position is a mechanical valve at the trans, it's called the "manual valve". Once you shift into neutral it goes into neutral, the computer only affects shifting when your shifting into gear or between gears, not out of gear into neutral.

What you're repeating here sounds like the internet rumor mill, urban legend type stuff, do you have a link?

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 12:19 PM
PEDRO PICASSO, #11 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #33

53. I'm not repeating anything. I'm asking questions.

I didn't hear this anywhere. What I am "repeating" are the accounts from the news report about the CHP driver incident in which he was simply not able to shut down his car. In his particular case, he had a Toyota or Lexus with a push-button start. These cars will not shut down at highway speeds by pressing the on-off button -- a reasonable safety measure.

You are required to use the key fob and hold the start button down for three seconds. When you're blasting along at 100+ mph and have no control of your vehicle, can imagine trying to dig in your pocket or wherever looking for the key fob? You travel a very long distance in three seconds at 100 mph. There is also no mention of this emergency shut-down procedure in the Toyota manual (as if you'd be able to read it under such a circumstance). It is just another serious design flaw that no one really considered when creating this new system.

No "urban legend" stuff. Just the facts.

Turbineguy  (1000+ posts)      Mon Feb-01-10 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
 
6. Since it only happens rarely there must be a confluence of certain conditions within a very narrow range. Temperature(s), o2 exhaust level, air and fuel densities, throttle position prior to excursion, engine rpm, rate of change of engine speed and power ramp-up, transmission setting control, the entire host of inputs.

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 08:36 AM
PEDRO PICASSO, #11 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #6

9. Does your computer freeze up or crash every time you use it?

Or only when it's humid, you're typing too fast, etc?

Not being smug, I understand what you're trying to say, but it doesn't make it any more plausible that this is mechanical. Toyota has decades of experience designing and building cars. I find it hard to believe that they made such a radical redesign of their floor mats and/or foot pedal that they're suddenly so succeptible to condensation and temperature.

What HAS changed significantly in the design of these new vehicles? The shift from a mechanical accelerator linkage to drive-by-wire. A computer controlled accelerator.

And just as I can boast that my Mac never crashes or freezes, there are plenty of people who will tell you that their Macs do so all the time.

Computers are notoriously finicky; accelerators are not. I think this is kind of an Occum's Razor type situation -- and the simplest explanation is not magic floor mats or condensation causing problems in a basic component like a pedal.

AndyA  (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
 
13. New cars are so completely automatic, they almost don't need a driver.

So, people never really learn what to do in an emergency situation. They don't understand their cars, how they work, what they're supposed to be doing at any given time, etc.

On older cars, people had to learn how to start them depending on the outside temperature and the engine temperature. You couldn't just get in and turn the key to start. On cold days with a cold engine, the choke had to be set in order to start the engine. On slick roads, you had to let the car warm up enough to open the choke and kick the idle down a bit, or you might lose traction due to the high engine speed.

People had to have a higher degree of knowledge as to what to expect and what their responsibilities were to operate the car properly. Today, I'll bet lots of people don't bother to read the owner's manual except for the pages on how to operate the radio.

And that explains why when their car does something unexpected, they don't know what to do about it. It's normal to panic some, but for people to not realize they can prevent forward movement by putting the car in neutral is pretty sad. One wonders if they should be operating a vehicle at all if they don't understand the basics.

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 09:00 AM
PEDRO PICASSO, #11 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #13

18. Gotta admit, the ESC and AWD controls on my car baffle me.

I have buttons on the dash to lock the AWD and/or disable the ESC, but don't really know when or why I would want to do either. I had to use the Google to find some info but I'm still not sure. It does kind of freak me out when I feel the ESC taking over control of my car. I kind of like the "natural" feedback from a regular drive system, but everything I've read says that ESC is a lifesaver, so I deal.

sendero (1000+ posts)        Mon Feb-01-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
 
109. There is one other problem with this whole thing.

.... several Lexus models have had the same problem but they don't seem to be recalled. Since Lexii are about 90% Toyota anyway, I have a hard time understanding this.

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Tue Feb-02-10 07:23 AM
PEDRO PICASSO, #11 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #109

112. Story about this last night still blaming Lexus problem on floor mat 

Specifically mentioned the CHP incident on CNN and said "but that one was a problem with the floor mat." Clearly there is a cover-up going on. The Lexus in question is just a fancy Avalon.

MicaelS (1000+ posts)      Tue Feb-02-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #109
 
118. Do you know if....

The CHP officer who died with his family in the Lexus tried to shift the car into neutral? What was the result?

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Tue Feb-02-10 02:19 PM
PEDRO PICASSO, #11 TOP PRIMITIVE OF 2009
Response to Reply #118

119. Supposedly the Lexus was one that could not be turned off without the key fob

Toyota has since redesigned the start button (gosh, I wonder why they felt they had to do that?) so that you could shut down the engine by depressing the start button for three seconds. But on the model he was driving, you could not turn off the car while in motion without the key fob, which you had to depress for three seconds...if you could find it in time before plowing into something. And if you KNEW that was the emergency shut-down procedure. The manual only mentions it in one paragraph (I misstated in another post that the procedure was not mentioned at all. It is, but one sentence).

Also, he apparently tried shifting into everything...neutral, reverse, lo, anything that might slow him down. I'm not sure how investigators knew this, since everyone died, but that is what I heard on a report on the radio.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I'm kind of surprised Pedro didn't tell us what Joe Scarborough had to say about it, since that seems to be included in every other one of his posts.

[franksolich]

I'm kind of surprised Pedro didn't tell us what Joe Scarborough had to say about it, since that seems to be included in every other one of his posts.

I'm kind of surprised Pedro Picasso unglued his eyeballs from the boob tube long enough to hear something on a radio.

[Chris_]

I wonder when they are going to get around to discussing the fact that every liberal's dream.....the Prius, has bad brakes, and is also being recalled.......

I was surprised, because I didn't think that a Prius would go fast enough to actually need brakes........

doc

[Ralph Wiggum]

I wonder when they are going to get around to discussing the fact that every liberal's dream.....the Prius, has bad brakes, and is also being recalled.......

I was surprised, because I didn't think that a Prius would go fast enough to actually need brakes........

doc

Hey, even golf carts need brakes too.

[Chris_]

Hey, even golf carts need brakes too.

I figured that you just opened the door, and dragged your Birkenstocks on the pavement......

doc

[njpines]

Don't forget the Prius' Smug problem:

[The Village Idiot]

Obviously we shouldget expet opinions from the $3 frozen pizza crowd

[Randy]

What gets me about this whole Toyota non-story is the fact that all these dipshits reporting it have all seemed to have forgoten GM, Ford, Chrysler et al who we all know have NEVER EVER had a recall, ever 

GM never had one for accelerating vehicles and never had a huge fight with the NTSB and the media over it. Turned out the real problem wasn't operator error at all, nope that wasn't it at all. 

[GOBUCKS]

The point of this story isn't dangerous Toyotas. You have a better chance of tripping on the curb and breaking your neck than having an accident from a "sticking accelerator". The point is that we have a whole new generation of trial lawyers who don't have their Lamborghinis and Gulfstreams yet. Every story like this is 1% fact and 99% trial lawyers. Now that we have socialist trial lawyers running the government, Toyota's in trouble. Couple that with the UAW's hatred of Toyota, and you have a really toxic stew.

[DefiantSix]

The point of this story isn't dangerous Toyotas. You have a better chance of tripping on the curb and breaking your neck than having an accident from a "sticking accelerator". The point is that we have a whole new generation of trial lawyers who don't have their Lamborghinis and Gulfstreams yet. Every story like this is 1% fact and 99% trial lawyers. Now that we have socialist trial lawyers running the government, Toyota's in trouble. Couple that with the UAW's hatred of Toyota, and you have a really toxic stew.

And don't forget Gub'mint Motors' need to increase it's "market share" by driving it's healthy competitors as close to the brink of bankruptsy as they've been until Unca Shugah took 'em under his wing.

[debk]

The point of this story isn't dangerous Toyotas. You have a better chance of tripping on the curb and breaking your neck than having an accident from a "sticking accelerator". The point is that we have a whole new generation of trial lawyers who don't have their Lamborghinis and Gulfstreams yet. Every story like this is 1% fact and 99% trial lawyers. Now that we have socialist trial lawyers running the government, Toyota's in trouble. Couple that with the UAW's hatred of Toyota, and you have a really toxic stew.

There was a woman, yesterday,  from a nearby county .....who ran into the front wall of a funeral home.

In her Toyota.

She said her accelerator stuck.

She went by ambulance and is reported to have neck problems.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Anyone else wonder about the convenience of this?


http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=11935469

[GOBUCKS]

I think that's probably what happened at Pam's laundry  mat.

[Alpha Mare]

The problem is the WH. Obama's War on Toyota.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood is telling owners of recalled Toyotas to stop driving the vehicles and get them fixed. LaHood told WGN Radio in Chicago that "the reason Toyota decided to do the recall and to stop manufacturing was because we asked them to."

Patronizing the world's most successful car company as a miscreant manufacturer rather than the toughest competitor for our government-owned carmakers, LaHood huffed that he's going to "have a conversation with (President Akio) Toyota very soon, to talk to him about how serious this is, and to make sure he understands."  "We're not finished with Toyota," he added.

This is not a new problem.
NHTSA has conducted eight investigations into Toyota, GM, Ford and VW accelerator problems in the last seven years. None have been found to be a faulty sticking pedal as the cause.  Out of 1.8 million cars manufactured each year in the U.S., Toyota has 100 complaints, a handful of injuries, and in two cases deaths are alleged.  If other models have the same problem yet specific investigations come up empty handed technically, are they only zeroing in on Toyota?

Many Toyota insiders are furious at the Obama Administration. The recall Toyota has issued is the result of pressure from the U.S. Transportation Department. They believe that the pressure is coming not because of a true concern for safety, but an attempt by the Administration to drive sales toward American carmakers including those recently bailed out.

General Motors is offering interest-free loans and other incentives to Toyota owners who may want to get rid of their cars due to fears about faulty gas pedals. Never let a crisis go to waste-even if you created it.


http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/07/20/sudden-acceleration/
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=520091
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2010/01/is-obama-behind-curious-toyota-recall.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/02/lahood-getting-toyota-to-recall-took-enormous-effort-calls-a/

[JohnnyReb]

The problem is the WH. Obama's War on Toyota.

This is not a new problem.
NHTSA has conducted eight investigations into Toyota, GM, Ford and VW accelerator problems in the last seven years. None have been found to be a faulty sticking pedal as the cause.  Out of 1.8 million cars manufactured each year in the U.S., Toyota has 100 complaints, a handful of injuries, and in two cases deaths are alleged.  If other models have the same problem yet specific investigations come up empty handed technically, are they only zeroing in on Toyota?

Many Toyota insiders are furious at the Obama Administration. The recall Toyota has issued is the result of pressure from the U.S. Transportation Department. They believe that the pressure is coming not because of a true concern for safety, but an attempt by the Administration to drive sales toward American carmakers including those recently bailed out.

General Motors is offering interest-free loans and other incentives to Toyota owners who may want to get rid of their cars due to fears about faulty gas pedals. Never let a crisis go to waste-even if you created it.


http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/07/20/sudden-acceleration/
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=520091
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2010/01/is-obama-behind-curious-toyota-recall.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/02/lahood-getting-toyota-to-recall-took-enormous-effort-calls-a/

My small town GM ran a full page ad in the local tri-weekly paper offering great deals for Toyota trade ins......if you can't compete...dial 1-800-Obama

[thundley4]

If any US car maker is to benefit from this, I hope it is Ford. 

[BlueStateSaint]

It's all about supporting the UAW.

[Randy]

The problem is the WH. Obama's War on Toyota.

This is not a new problem.
NHTSA has conducted eight investigations into Toyota, GM, Ford and VW accelerator problems in the last seven years. None have been found to be a faulty sticking pedal as the cause.  Out of 1.8 million cars manufactured each year in the U.S., Toyota has 100 complaints, a handful of injuries, and in two cases deaths are alleged.  If other models have the same problem yet specific investigations come up empty handed technically, are they only zeroing in on Toyota?

Many Toyota insiders are furious at the Obama Administration. The recall Toyota has issued is the result of pressure from the U.S. Transportation Department. They believe that the pressure is coming not because of a true concern for safety, but an attempt by the Administration to drive sales toward American carmakers including those recently bailed out.

General Motors is offering interest-free loans and other incentives to Toyota owners who may want to get rid of their cars due to fears about faulty gas pedals. Never let a crisis go to waste-even if you created it.


http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/07/20/sudden-acceleration/
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=520091
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2010/01/is-obama-behind-curious-toyota-recall.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/02/lahood-getting-toyota-to-recall-took-enormous-effort-calls-a/

Exactly! What's been found to be the problem isn't sticking accelerators or faulty brakes but faulty feet stomping the gas to the floor in a panic thinking they're on the brakes.

I was a GM mechanic for way to many years. When the anti-lock brake system came out people were freaked the hell out by the fact you could push through the brake system with the pedal if you stood on the brakes instead of that hard resistance they were used to. We got daily complaints that the brakes weren't working on cars and trucks. We wasted way to many hours having to show people how the brakes worked.

Now that both pedals can be pushed to the floor in a panic situation they both get blamed for being faulty when it's really the driver shitting a brick over seeing a squirrel in the road.