Author Topic: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...  (Read 2716 times)

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Offline dutch508

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DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« on: February 02, 2010, 02:12:21 PM »
Quote
Kurt_and_Hunter  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-02-10 12:32 PM
Original message http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x166801
If this years budget deficit was 3.6 trillion but led to 8% growth...
 Edited on Tue Feb-02-10 12:41 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
The current deficit is $1.6 trillion (I think... that's from memory of the news)

US economic growth going forward is expected to be in the 3% range for a long time and unemployment expected to be high (7.5%+) for years.

Okay, a hypothetical...

If this year's budget added $2 trillion in job creation and economic stimulus and the result was GDP growth of 8% in 2011 and 6% in 2012 and some points cut off unemployment how would that affect the deficit and debt in 2014? How about in 2018?

Government revenues are dynamic, not static. In practice GDP is a greater driver of revenue than abstract tax rates. (Repealing the bush tax cuts will generate a hell of a lot more revenue in an environment where people are working and spending and booking profits.)

My instinct is that a stimulus blow-out this year would not make the long-term deficit and debt much worse and would stand a real chance of reducing deficit and debt in the long term, and perhaps even in the medium time-frame.

(Yes, I know this will not happen. The question is about ideal policy, not predicting what congress will actually do.)

Comments?


uh...what?

Quote
taught_me_patience  (1000+ posts)        Tue Feb-02-10 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Currently tax receipts are 16% of GDP
 2.3T/14T or so. So, if you add 8%, GDP would be approx 15T. Additional tax receipts would be 160B. Therefore, you're 1.6T deficit, to increase tax receipts 160B. Not a smart economic move. The 8% growth rate assumption also seems pretty "optimistic".


Quote
leveymg (1000+ posts)        Tue Feb-02-10 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. 2009 US GDP didn't grow 8%. It grew .1% (flat) after declining -1.9 in 2008 
 Edited on Tue Feb-02-10 01:07 PM by leveymg
Q1 (-)5.7
Q2 (-)2.1
Q3 (+)2.2
Q4 (+)5.7

If it grows flat then it's not growing...there is more to this post, but I don't care...

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Offline Karin

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2010, 02:39:23 PM »
Where the hell is he getting 8% from?  Obviously where the sun doesn't shine.

Quote
My instinct is..

Your instinct doesn't count for shit, Kurt.  Economics, which your messiah flunked, is more than feelings.

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 02:44:29 PM »
They will spend a massive amount of cash that doesn't exist to try and get the economy to look like its getting better even though its just another bubble set for a very major crash after the elections.

Did I miss something?

Offline thundley4

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2010, 03:31:40 PM »
With all the proposed spending, wasteful and necessary in Lord Zero's budget, the fact is that he has already used the uppermost fantasy numbers for growth.  The deficits can only be worse than Lord Zero guesses they will be, but they certainly won't be better.

Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2010, 03:43:23 PM »
With all the proposed spending, wasteful and necessary in Lord Zero's budget, the fact is that he has already used the uppermost fantasy numbers for growth.  The deficits can only be worse than Lord Zero guesses they will be, but they certainly won't be better.

My proposed federal budget is $29.99

heh

Seriously we could kick off the illegals from welfare, then simply trim 3% off of welfare benefits while tightening the rules as to whom can get them. Lets take the middle class off the welfare benefits. Lets end all corporate welfare for real too. Most of the stupid farm programs too. Then we can ban Congressmembers families from flying on military aircraft and running up liquor bills.

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2010, 04:13:19 PM »
My proposed federal budget is $29.99

heh

Seriously we could kick off the illegals from welfare, then simply trim 3% off of welfare benefits while tightening the rules as to whom can get them. Lets take the middle class off the welfare benefits. Lets end all corporate welfare for real too. Most of the stupid farm programs too. Then we can ban Congressmembers families from flying on military aircraft and running up liquor bills.

If you think congress is bad now, wait until they sober up.............they'll be a mean bunch of drunks.
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2010, 04:25:47 PM »
If you think congress is bad now, wait until they sober up.............they'll be a mean bunch of drunks.

I just posted "My Federal Budget" in the blogs section

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2010, 05:36:09 PM »
DUmmynomics:

1. Take money from economy
2. Wash money through congress
3. Dump money back into economy
4. Call money dumped into economy "growth"
5. Use "growth" as an excse to take more money out of economy.
6. Rinse, repeat and pat self on shoulder for being a sooper-jeenyuss
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2010, 06:01:19 PM »
1. Take money from economy
2. Wash money through congress
3. Dump money back into economy
4. Call money dumped into economy "growth"
5. Use "growth" as an excse to take more money out of economy.
6. Rinse, repeat and pat self on shoulder for being a sooper-jeenyuss

And thats not just DU the whole Democrat Party and now the FedGov is really doing it.

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2010, 06:39:49 PM »
And thats not just DU the whole Democrat Party and now the FedGov is really doing it.
I told my 11 year-old about the so-called stimulus and how it comes from tax revenues but where tax revenues come from. His response? "But they're just putting back where they got it from. Why take it away in the first place?"

If an 11-y/o can figure it out it means the dems aren't stupid...

...they're corrupt.
According to the Bible, "know" means "yes."

Offline USA4ME

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 07:58:47 PM »
Quote from:
Kurt_and_Hunter

If this years budget deficit was 3.6 trillion but led to 8% growth...
 
The current deficit is $1.6 trillion (I think... that's from memory of the news)

US economic growth going forward is expected to be in the 3% range for a long time and unemployment expected to be high (7.5%+) for years.

Okay, a hypothetical...

If this year's budget added $2 trillion in job creation and economic stimulus and the result was GDP growth of 8% in 2011 and 6% in 2012 and some points cut off unemployment how would that affect the deficit and debt in 2014? How about in 2018?

Government revenues are dynamic, not static. In practice GDP is a greater driver of revenue than abstract tax rates. (Repealing the bush tax cuts will generate a hell of a lot more revenue in an environment where people are working and spending and booking profits.)

My instinct is that a stimulus blow-out this year would not make the long-term deficit and debt much worse and would stand a real chance of reducing deficit and debt in the long term, and perhaps even in the medium time-frame.

I'd love to answer this, but I don't have time to write an essay, and that would be what it would take to correct all the errors this primtive presented.

Briefly, adding $2T in "stimulus" for one year, even if GDP went to 8% for that one year, would not cause it to be at 6% the next.  It's a one year shot in the arm, and without additional "stimulus" the next year, you're not going to sustain the growth.

Com'n primitives, this is straight-up Keynesian economics.  The model says you keep pumping in money year after year after year until things turn around, and then you ride out the inflation on the other side.  So in your example, a one time shot would not sustain growth, and by 2014 & 2018 you'd have limited growth with double the debt.

.
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2010, 12:30:57 AM »
I told my 11 year-old about the so-called stimulus and how it comes from tax revenues but where tax revenues come from. His response? "But they're just putting back where they got it from. Why take it away in the first place?"

If an 11-y/o can figure it out it means the dems aren't stupid...

...they're corrupt.

Naw, they're just frikkin' evil!
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Offline Chris

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2010, 12:36:29 AM »
Remember when we laughed at the French a few years ago for their 8.5% unemployment?
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Offline AllosaursRus

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2010, 04:25:51 AM »
Remember when we laughed at the French a few years ago for their 8.5% unemployment?

Remember when the Bummmerrrrrrrr was only promising to fundamentily change our country in to the spittin' image of a European shit pile?
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2010, 06:11:39 AM »
Can Jimmah Carter double digit type hyper-inflation be far behind?
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

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Offline miskie

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2010, 06:45:57 AM »
Can Jimmah Carter double digit type hyper-inflation be far behind?


Of course not - When one injects the economy full of printed dollars without anything substantial behind them, inflation is the inevitable result.

Offline Tucker

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2010, 06:50:39 AM »
They will spend a massive amount of cash that doesn't exist to try and get the economy to look like its getting better even though its just another bubble set for a very major crash after the elections.

Did I miss something?

Yeah. The reporting of + job loss. With statement like "There was an overall job loss of 600,00  last month but without our stimulus package, it would have been a million."

That reasoning makes my head hurt.
Come to think of it, unions do create jobs. Companies have to hire two workers to do the work of one.

Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: DUmpmonkiez fail math...again...
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2010, 11:42:12 AM »
Yeah. The reporting of + job loss. With statement like "There was an overall job loss of 600,000  last month but without our stimulus package, it would have been a million."
In that case, they would simply report a gain of 400,000. It's the same way they computed spending "cuts" when Bushco would reduce the amount of an increase they wanted in some boondoggle.