Author Topic: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming  (Read 39769 times)

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Offline Wineslob

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #125 on: January 27, 2010, 04:20:30 PM »
TNO,
What's the normal level of atmospheric CO2, by percentage?
What effect would one volcanic eruption have on this? Or one forest fire, like the one we had in 2008 (Paradise Ca)?
Do the oceans absorb and release this gas, as a function of solar output?

*hint* the answers are out there.
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Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #126 on: January 27, 2010, 04:27:23 PM »
I don't know why the CO2 level in your backyard is at 192 ppm. Perhaps you live close to a large carbon sink?

Anyway, here is an interesting article and video on carbon monitoring: http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2007/0604-tracking_global_carbon.htm
Maybe he doesn't have a volcano in his back yard.  Not everyone can be as fortunate as NOAA.
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #127 on: January 27, 2010, 04:28:49 PM »
Maybe he doesn't have a volcano in his back yard.  Not everyone can be as fortunate as NOAA.

LOL!
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #128 on: January 27, 2010, 04:35:37 PM »
I don't know why the CO2 level in your backyard is at 192 ppm. Perhaps you live close to a large carbon sink?

Anyway, here is an interesting article and video on carbon monitoring: http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2007/0604-tracking_global_carbon.htm

Well....it is winter here, therefore photosyntheses wouldn't affect it much, as a carbon sink........and the wind is 15 knots from the east, which is the "industrialized" part of the area.........

I'm not on a submarine, with CO2 scrubbers, so it must be a "valid" measurement.........

Or at least as "valid" as the "climate scientists".........

doc
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #129 on: January 27, 2010, 04:55:34 PM »
TNO,
What's the normal level of atmospheric CO2, by percentage?

There is no "normal" level for atmospheric CO2 but we know that the current concentration is about 100 ppm higher than the preindustrial level.

Quote
What effect would one volcanic eruption have on this? Or one forest fire, like the one we had in 2008 (Paradise Ca)?

Volcanic eruptions and forest fires increase atmospheric CO2. Your point?

Quote
Do the oceans absorb and release this gas, as a function of solar output?

Yes. Oceans provide the largest carbon sink we have. Heat is thought to affect the rate at which oceans absorb and release CO2.
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Offline dutch508

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #130 on: January 27, 2010, 05:08:30 PM »
There is no "normal" level for atmospheric CO2 but we know that the current concentration is about 100 ppm higher than the preindustrial level.
pre-industrial what were we doing to provide energy for the people? How do we know what 'normal' was in. let's say, 500 AD?

Quote
Volcanic eruptions and forest fires increase atmospheric CO2. Your point?

What would be the effect of one eruption, I beleve that was the question.


Quote
Yes. Oceans provide the largest carbon sink we have. Heat is thought to affect the rate at which oceans absorb and release CO2.

Is thought? By whom? What is their 'equation' to support this theory?
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #131 on: January 27, 2010, 05:13:04 PM »
Well....it is winter here, therefore photosyntheses wouldn't affect it much, as a carbon sink........and the wind is 15 knots from the east, which is the "industrialized" part of the area.........

I'm not on a submarine, with CO2 scrubbers, so it must be a "valid" measurement.........

Or at least as "valid" as the "climate scientists".........

doc

May I ask what state you live in?
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #132 on: January 27, 2010, 05:15:07 PM »
May I ask what state you live in?


Missouri......no where near any water if that is what you are getting at......

doc
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #133 on: January 27, 2010, 05:21:15 PM »
Missouri......no where near any water if that is what you are getting at......

doc

The Great Lakes?
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #134 on: January 27, 2010, 05:30:49 PM »
There is no "normal" level for atmospheric CO2 but we know that the current concentration is about 100 ppm higher than the preindustrial level.

Yeah...no:

Quote
ScienceDaily (Dec. 31, 2009) — Most of the carbon dioxide emitted by human activity does not remain in the atmosphere, but is instead absorbed by the oceans and terrestrial ecosystems. In fact, only about 45 percent of emitted carbon dioxide stays in the atmosphere.

However, some studies have suggested that the ability of oceans and plants to absorb carbon dioxide recently may have begun to decline and that the airborne fraction of anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions is therefore beginning to increase.

Many climate models also assume that the airborne fraction will increase. Because understanding of the airborne fraction of carbon dioxide is important for predicting future climate change, it is essential to have accurate knowledge of whether that fraction is changing or will change as emissions increase.

To assess whether the airborne fraction is indeed increasing, Wolfgang Knorr of the Department of Earth Sciences at the University of Bristol reanalyzed available atmospheric carbon dioxide and emissions data since 1850 and considers the uncertainties in the data.

In contradiction to some recent studies, he finds that the airborne fraction of carbon dioxide has not increased either during the past 150 years or during the most recent five decades.
The research is published in Geophysical Research Letters
.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091230184221.htm

We are left to wonder what "some recent studies" might be.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2010, 05:32:16 PM »
The Great Lakes?
Failing at both climate "science" AND geography.

You do them well.
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2010, 07:37:25 PM »
I'm not on a submarine, with CO2 scrubbers, so it must be a "valid" measurement.........

I was gonna say, 192 ppm on a boat, even with BOTH scrubbers running, after being out for about a week?  Though to be fair, CO2 was measured in torr.

Someone must be dreaming.  I remember times on the boat where we'd gone so long people were beginning to get headaches over the level of CO2, and the oxygen level got so low we couldn't light cigarettes.  Not the "not supposed to", I mean physically UNABLE TO LIGHT THEM.
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Offline Doc

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2010, 07:46:23 PM »
Someone must be dreaming.  I remember times on the boat where we'd gone so long people were beginning to get headaches over the level of CO2, and the oxygen level got so low we couldn't light cigarettes.  Not the "not supposed to", I mean physically UNABLE TO LIGHT THEM.

You wouldn't be telln' us sea stories, or breathin' the bleed-off from the torpedo fuel vents wouldya?
 :-)

My Navy vet buddy always told me that sea duty on a nuke boat was like a week-end at the Ritz Carlton compared to the tin can he served on......

doc
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 07:49:48 PM by TVDOC »

Offline NHSparky

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2010, 07:49:28 PM »
You wouldn't be telln' us sea stories, or breathin' the bleed-off from the torpedo fuel vents wouldya?
 :-)

doc

Nope--two weeks without ventilating, scrubbers and burners barely keeping up, and I had to go into the RPFW mezzanine to light my cigarette, until even that didn't work.  Fortunately, we ventilated a day or two later.

You'd be amazed the difference a percent or two in O2 concentration will make.
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Offline Texacon

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2010, 07:52:51 PM »
The Great Lakes?

The Great Lakes?!  Really?  Long way from Missouri to the Great Lakes .... even one of them.

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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2010, 07:56:59 PM »
Yeah...no:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091230184221.htm

We are left to wonder what "some recent studies" might be.

There might be a little bit of understandable confusion over terms here. The airborne fraction is not just a simple measure of atmospheric CO2. It's the ratio of increase in atmospheric CO2 to emitted CO2.

Wolfgang Knorr's findings are completely in line with IPCC findings from 2007:

There is yet no statistically significant trend in the CO2 growth rate as a fraction of fossil fuel plus cement emissions since routine atmospheric CO2 measurements began in 1958. This ‘airborne fraction’ has shown little variation over this period.

http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch7s7-es.html

From the same report:

Atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) concentration has continued to increase and is now almost 100 ppm above its pre-industrial level. The annual mean CO2 growth rate was significantly higher for the period from 2000 to 2005 (4.1 ± 0.1 GtC yr–1) than it was in the 1990s (3.2 ± 0.1 GtC yr–1). Annual emissions of CO2 from fossil fuel burning and cement production increased from a mean of 6.4 ± 0.4 GtC yr–1 in the 1990s to 7.2 ± 0.3 GtC yr–1 for 2000 to 2005.[1]

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2010, 09:51:50 PM »
1. TVDOC just told you he read his backyard atmospheric carbon at 192 ppm. If the IPCC is to be believed they are telling us that pre-industrial atmospheric carbon levels were < 92 ppm

2. They interestingly make the leap from carbon to fossil fuels and cement. Correlation does not equal causation.

3. Temperature leads carbon, not vice versa:

Quote
In the 1990’s the classic Vostok ice core graph showed temperature and carbon in lock step moving at the same time. It made sense to worry that carbon dioxide did influence temperature. But by 2003 new data came in and it was clear that carbon lagged behind temperature. The link was back to front. Temperatures appear to control carbon, and while it’s possible that carbon also influences temperature these ice cores don’t show much evidence of that. After temperatures rise, on average it takes 800 years before carbon starts to move. The extraordinary thing is that the lag is well accepted by climatologists, yet virtually unknown outside these circles. The fact that temperature leads is not controversial. It’s relevance is debated.

http://joannenova.com.au/global-warming/ice-core-graph/

4. The IPCC  :rotf:

Really boy, you need to find something that ISN'T ass-deep in bullying, politics and Ponzi schemes.
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2010, 10:43:40 PM »
3. Temperature leads carbon, not vice versa:

Actually, CO2 leads and lags.

Quote
Saturday, 9 January, 2010
Why does CO2 lag temperature?

Over the last half million years, our climate has experienced long ice ages regularly punctuated by brief warm periods called interglacials. Atmospheric carbon dioxide closely matches the cycle, increasing by around 80 to 100 parts per million as Antarctic temperatures warm up to 10°C. However, when you look closer, CO2 actually lags temperature by around 1000 years. While this result was predicted two decades ago (Lorius 1990), it still surprises and confuses many. Does warming cause CO2 rise or the other way around? In actuality, the answer is both.



...

To claim that the CO2 lag disproves the warming effect of CO2 displays a lack of understanding of the processes that drive Milankovitch cycles. A review of the peer reviewed research into past periods of deglaciation tells us several things:

•Deglaciation is not initiated by CO2 but by orbital cycles
•CO2 amplifies the warming which cannot be explained by orbital cycles alone
•CO2 spreads warming throughout the planet

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Why-does-CO2-lag-temperature.html

Real climate also has a great article on CO2 lead and lag but I can't post it because it will be censored by the CC government.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 10:45:18 PM by The Night Owl »
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #143 on: January 28, 2010, 05:41:11 AM »
Actually, CO2 leads and lags.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Why-does-CO2-lag-temperature.html

Real climate also has a great article on CO2 lead and lag but I can't post it because it will be censored by the CC government.

Real Climate is about as factually accurate as Wiki these days.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #144 on: January 28, 2010, 06:05:58 AM »
Real climate also has a great article on CO2 lead and lag but I can't post it because it will be censored by the CC government.
You can post it but it will be given zero credence because they cherry-pick their data and Mann, by his own emails, used it to push his agenda.

They have zero credibility.
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #145 on: January 28, 2010, 07:19:02 AM »
You can post it but it will be given zero credence because they cherry-pick their data and Mann, by his own emails, used it to push his agenda.

They have zero credibility.

How do these Global Warming Cultists explain or compensate for the fact that small fluctuations in the atmosphere can equal human CO2 output?

These alleged scientists know that the balance between the surface and the atmosphere aren't in natural balance and never have been.

Yet they act as if the imbalance only started in the last 100-150 years.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #146 on: January 28, 2010, 09:37:11 AM »
You can post it but it will be given zero credence because they cherry-pick their data and Mann, by his own emails, used it to push his agenda.

They have zero credibility.

Actually, TVDOC has stated that any such link to RC will be deleted. He was quite firm about that. Previously posted drivel garbage stuff from Real Climate was allowed to stand.

TNO's sarcasm and whining about his continual efforts to post trash from RC, despite the fact that RC has been shown to be biased, scientifically fraudulent, and otherwise unsuitable as a source, continues to be just as loud and long as his efforts in "arguing" this inarguable topic.

But as he has also stated, he's not here for the exchange of information. He just likes to argue.  :whatever:
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 09:38:58 AM by Eupher »
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #147 on: January 28, 2010, 09:46:35 AM »
You can post it but it will be given zero credence because they cherry-pick their data and Mann, by his own emails, used it to push his agenda.

TVDOC said that if I post anything from Real Climate he will delete it.
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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #148 on: January 28, 2010, 09:48:51 AM »
How do these Global Warming Cultists explain or compensate for the fact that small fluctuations in the atmosphere can equal human CO2 output?

These alleged scientists know that the balance between the surface and the atmosphere aren't in natural balance and never have been.

Yet they act as if the imbalance only started in the last 100-150 years.
I don't mind playing Devil's advocate (in fact he keeps me on retainer) but you bring out a point I don't think feather-head recognizes:

The graph he is so eager to show has carbon and temp rising and falling over periods of hundreds and thousands of years. I'm sure he would love to show a spike since the advent of the industrial age but such spikes have been obliterated with the CRU emails and subsequent revisiting of so-called data which is no data at all. Bad models filled with bad data is no basis for research.

It's certainly nothing to lose your freedom or economy over.

Still, it is hard to analyze without psycho-analyzing. To justify the degree of intrusion they claim is necessary to rectify this "issue" one has to have a potential threat. They are essentially asking to co-opt liberty and economic power on a scale not seen since WW2 where we had rationing and a suspension of 4th Amendment liberties (they were reading people's mail). In a total war I can sincerely defend such actions but now, instead of fighting Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan, the chimera we battle is...us, our very own way of life.

Can man be destructive? Hell yes! But does the history of Love Canal, Chernobyl et al prove or justify AGW? Hell, no! And the incestuous tricksters from CRU, the IPCC and stealclimate.borg don't have the facts otherwise they wouldn't have to resort to lies. I think people like the head of the IPCC are in it for the money because he's making money. Al Gore might actually believe his bullshit but his oversized back pocket and elitist attitude do nothing to help. The Nobel Committee beclowns itself giving the Peace Prize to a report now proven to be packed with fabricated data, bad models and politically motivated non-research. Which brings us to the IPCC.

heh.

'nuff said.

I don't know if TNO psychologically NEEDS windmills to tilt but the absence of doom and gloom seems to distress him to no end. It is as if he was in mourning after being told his child was misdiagnosed with cancer. Perhaps it is because the doctor offering the second opinion is politically misaligned he demands the child be subjected to the whithering effects of radiation and chemo therapy, "just to be safe" and then runs off to have a fund-raiser and place a third mortgage on his multi-generational home to pay for the treatments with the doctor that provided the first diagnosis who forbids a re-examination of test findings.

The entire affair is one part incredible and three parts maddening.

TVDOC said that if I post anything from Real Climate he will delete it.
Yes, well, they do play the part of Mann-handlers gay cabana boy. They have no one to blame buth themselves. Perhaps you should be grateful for not being allowed to embarrass yourself.
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Climate Denial Crock of the Week - The Cold Snap Disproves Global Warming
« Reply #149 on: January 28, 2010, 09:52:06 AM »
Yes, well, they do play the part of Mann-handlers gay cabana boy. They have no one to blame buth themselves. Perhaps you should be grateful for not being allowed to embarrass yourself.

I see. So, your outrage at censorship is reserved only for RC... people who disagree with you.
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