Cyrano Jr. inquires about excessive income

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7065997

Oh my.

Cyrano Jr., the bane of Oscar Wilde, the large-proboscised primitive:

Cyrano69 (32 posts)      Sun Nov-22-09 09:59 AM NON-DONOR
Original message
 
Is $200,000.00 an excessive income?

We always hear about increasing taxes on the rich, rich usually being defined as people making more than $200,000/yr. Now I am not in that income bracket, although I wish I was, but my question is;

Is that an excessive income, and does $200,000 make you "RICH"?

Consider that if you live in NYC and make $200,000 you lose 50% of it to taxes. Consider that a 700 sq.ft. 2 bedroom apartment in NYC runs around $5,000/mo. If you own a car you will pay $500/mo. for a parking space in a parking garage.

However if you live in Arkansas, $200,000 is a fortune. Isn't income relative to where you live?

It's a really big bonfire, so only the PoP are quoted here.

The blue primitive, who's willing to tolerate rampant corruption just so long as the blue primitive gets free medical care:

bluestateguy  (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-22-09 10:02 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Original message
 
1. Not at all

No income level is excessive. Having said that, 200,000 with kids is different than without, and means a lot less in NYC than Arkansas.

I believe in progressive taxation, and I would say that the 200,000 income category should be in the second highest category.

The grouchy old primitive, from just south of Chicago:

NNN0LHI  (1000+ posts)      Sun Nov-22-09 10:41 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Reply #3
 
27. Where is here?

The stupid primitive:

Warren Stupidity  (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-22-09 01:42 PM NON-DONOR
Response to Reply #9
 
56. 5000 is a bit much

OCT 2009 Studios Most expensive, least expensive
Doorman: TriBeCa, $3119 Harlem, $1262
No Doorman: TriBeCa, $2777 Harlem, $1294

Jackpine Radical  (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-22-09 10:22 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Original message
 
14. And when I was a kid, we thought anyone who made $10k a year was rich.

Nobody is saying $200k is "excessive--" depending on what you do to earn it. There are things I wouldn't do for $200k a year.

I think what you're getting at is whether people who make a lot of money should pay more taxes. That is a complicated issue. First, recognize that people who make, say, $200k a year pay the same rate as everyone else on the first $50, 100, 150k of taxable income. If a new higher tax bracket is placed at $200k, only that portion of his total income above $200k is taxed at the higher rate.

And recognize that we are only talking about income tax here. In today's system, someone who makes $100k pays the same amount into Social Security as does that $200k guy. They both pay the same sales tax on a tube of tooth paste. They both pay the same amount of property tax per dollar of assessed valuation.

And third, take note of the fact that the rich guy is likely to make more use of government services than the poor guy. Not only do the courts devote 90% of their resources to settling disputes among businesses, but the fire departments and police forces are primarily concerned with protecting the property of the rich. Even the streets in the rich part of town are likely to have fewer potholes than in the working-class neighborhoods so those Bentleys and Ferraris ride smoother and retain their resale value a bit better.

The old primitive:

old mark  (1000+ posts)      Sun Nov-22-09 10:24 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Original message

16. Really depends on who you are. I remember a few weeks ago, some woman sued for divorce and asked for something like $40,000 a month-for clothing!

It depends on how you want to live, etc.

I'd probably have trouble spending it all.

but I'd give it a try.......

The nocturnally foul primitive (I think):

Nite Owl  (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-22-09 10:34 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Original message
 
21. No, it really does depend on where you live. Living in NYC is expensive as are some other cities and their surrounding areas.

NNN0LHI  (1000+ posts)      Sun Nov-22-09 10:38 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Original message
 
26. I usually hear the $200,000.00 figure associated with single earners

And $250,000.00 for those filing jointly.

Is that a lot? I guess everything is relative. But I never made more than $100,000.00 in a year before I retired. And I thought that was a lot of money. Enough to not have to do without any necessities in life and to keep myself out of debt. No trips to Europe or second houses in Florida or anything, but I lived pretty darn good on that.

Qualifier: That is with good medical insurance included.

Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-22-09 11:01 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Original message
 
30. By my standards, yes.

By most Americans' standards, probably not.

"Where you live" doesn't really fly as a factor for me. If you're wealthy enough to live somewhere where costs are high, that doesn't somehow magically make you non-wealthy. People who are actually non-wealthy don't have the option to live in such places to begin with.

slackmaster  (1000+ posts)      Sun Nov-22-09 11:07 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Original message
 
33. Cost of living is irrelevant - If a person works hard and earns $200,000, it's not excessive

Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-22-09 11:45 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Reply #33
 
42. So it would be excessive if a person did not "work hard" and "earn" it?

Just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from. Does the issue of whether or not money comes from "hard work" and "earnings" have something to do with whether or not it is "excessive?" If so, how?

slackmaster  (1000+ posts)      Sun Nov-22-09 12:00 PM NON-DONOR
Response to Reply #42
 
50. How hard one works and how deserving one is of income are very subjective measures

So is setting an arbitrary amount of income and calling it "excessive".

The entire discussion is bullshit from the get-go, in my highly subjective opinion.

kestrel91316  (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-22-09 11:08 AM NON-DONOR
Response to Original message
 
34. You don't lose 50% of it to taxes, lol. There is presumably a hefty tax deduction for mortgage interest on the NYC home, and then the 50% is only applied to the upper portion of income. Lower portions of the income are taxed at a lower rate.

You may want to review the IRS's very own tax tables so you can see how this works.

But no, $200,000 is neither excessive nor egregious for, say, NYC. Though that depends in part on the job being performed.

Warren Stupidity  (1000+ posts)        Sun Nov-22-09 01:49 PM NON-DONOR
Response to Reply #37
 
57. really. This is yet another divide and conquer ploy.

Keep the peasants fighting each other, middle peasant against lower peasant. Meanwhile tax the hell out of all of them and use those taxes to keep the oligarchs floating in a river of cash. Goldman Sachs is handing out bonuses in the millions using our ****ing tax dollars and we are fighting over declaring a family living on 200k 'rich'. This thread needs to step back and get some perspective on how this planet is being run, by who and for whom. 700B a year to the MIC and we cannot afford universal healthcare? WTF?

The primitives generally think it is, but a surprisingly substantial minority don't.

[Chris_]

I've been watching this thread since this morning.

DUmmies, rich people don't have to work.  $200,000 is not rich.  Comfortable but not rich. Most people I know making that amount do work hard and it's not sitting behind a desk all day either.  EARNED after YEARS of working thank you very much.

I get a kick out of them saying it's your "obligation" to give some of that money away.  To them. Just because.

News flash, we in this house already support a moonbat.  Our son. That's my only obligation. And once he's prepared for real life he will no longer be a moonbat.   

[dandi]

No, there is no "excessive" income to DUmmies, as long as it's taxed at 90%.

All in the name of "paying your fair share," of course.

[LC EFA]

Why is it only "excessive income" when someone else earns it eh DUmmies ?

[GOBUCKS]

Even the streets in the rich part of town are likely to have fewer potholes than in the working-class neighborhoods so those Bentleys and Ferraris ride smoother and retain their resale value a bit better.

To the vast majority of DUmmies, there is no discernible difference between $200K and $200 million. They're both fantastic sums, inconceivable wealth, and they hate someone with a $200K income as much as they hate George Bush.

[JohnnyReb]

I learned one thing from all that.....it cost more to live in blue states.

[whiffleball]

I learned one thing from all that.....it cost more to live in blue states.

And nobody could pay me to live in one, meaning no offense or disrespect to members who do.  I tried it once and didn't last 8 months.  I can't live anywhere above NC/TN northern border and feel comfortable.

[jukin]

Why is it only "excessive income" when someone else earns it eh DUmmies ?

HI5!

[NHSparky]

Someone should tell the OP that $200K IS in fact in the second-highest tax bracket, whether one is single or married.

Since we seem to get a few lurking DUmmies here, let me pose a question:

If five DUmmies file their 2009 tax returns with a taxable income of $40,000 each (unlikely, I admit, but humor me anyway) and pay $6,188 in taxes each, assuming single filers, for a total tax of $30,940, or 15.47 percent of TAXABLE income (notice I said taxable, not TOTAL income), and ONE hard-working individual busts his ass to have a taxable income of $200,000, but ends up (if he's a single filer, as assumed for the DUmmies) paying $51,143 in federal taxes (or 25.57 percent of income), is that fair, or is that "excessive"?

Is it "fair", or is it "excessive" that I work 500-600 hours of OT every year just to cover my federal tax obligation, to say nothing of my obligation to the state, FICA, SSI, sales taxes, vehicle registration, etc., etc., etc., etc...?

And you ****ers want MORE of the fruits of my labor?

[BEG]

I get pissed when these leeches discuss what they think is rich. Because of our tax bracket we lose deductions, we can't write off one cent of our son's college and other deductions are reduced or are taken away completely. My husband and I have worked our asses off to get where we are. We have been so poor that we ate spaghetti and butter for what seemed like every day for years.  I watched kids a few months after having a stroke (taking them all with me to my doctor visits) because you do what you have to do. My husband worked three jobs after he was laid off from his first job out of college. We paid his student loans off...every last cent. Took us over ten years but we did it.

My husband works long after he is offically "off the clock".  He doesn't take sick days and rarely takes a day off. In fact they told him he had to take a few days off last year. He is a VP, one of those evil white collar people that DU loathe. They villify him yet know nothing about him. They think they have a right to what he EARNS. They know nothing about people in his position.  What he is responsable for.  NOTHING. I dare one of them to say to my face that they have the right to take even more money from him, from my family, and give it to people like underground panther.  I tripple dog dare them.     

[AllosaursRus]

And nobody could pay me to live in one, meaning no offense or disrespect to members who do.  I tried it once and didn't last 8 months.  I can't live anywhere above NC/TN northern border and feel comfortable.

Don't feel bad, I can't live in the city, period! I need at least a hundred yds between me and my nearest neighbor in order to feel my privacy. If I want to walk out the back door and shoot off a pop bottle rocket when my "team" wins, dammit, I'm going to do it without the sheriff showing up!

[Carl]

I get pissed when these leeches discuss what they think is rich. Because of our tax bracket we lose deductions, we can't write off one cent of our son's college and other deductions are reduced or are taken away completely. My husband and I have worked our asses off to get where we are. We have been so poor that we ate spaghetti and butter for what seemed like every day for years.  I watched kids a few months after having a stroke (taking them all with me to my doctor visits) because you do what you have to do. My husband worked three jobs after he was laid off from his first job out of college. We paid his student loans off...every last cent. Took us over ten years but we did it.

My husband works long after he is offically "off the clock".  He doesn't take sick days and rarely takes a day off. In fact they told him he had to take a few days off last year. He is a VP, one of those evil white collar people that DU loathe. They villify him yet know nothing about him. They think they have a right to what he EARNS. They know nothing about people in his position.  What he is responsable for.  NOTHING. I dare one of them to say to my face that they have the right to take even more money from him, from my family, and give it to people like underground panther.  I tripple dog dare them.     

They can`t or won`t because in the circle jerk of failure they call life they have never met a person with the qualities you describe.

[The Night Owl]

The nocturnally foul primitive (I think):

No.

[Traveshamockery]

I get pissed when these leeches discuss what they think is rich. Because of our tax bracket we lose deductions, we can't write off one cent of our son's college and other deductions are reduced or are taken away completely. My husband and I have worked our asses off to get where we are. We have been so poor that we ate spaghetti and butter for what seemed like every day for years.  I watched kids a few months after having a stroke (taking them all with me to my doctor visits) because you do what you have to do. My husband worked three jobs after he was laid off from his first job out of college. We paid his student loans off...every last cent. Took us over ten years but we did it.

My husband works long after he is offically "off the clock".  He doesn't take sick days and rarely takes a day off. In fact they told him he had to take a few days off last year. He is a VP, one of those evil white collar people that DU loathe. They villify him yet know nothing about him. They think they have a right to what he EARNS. They know nothing about people in his position.  What he is responsable for.  NOTHING. I dare one of them to say to my face that they have the right to take even more money from him, from my family, and give it to people like underground panther.  I tripple dog dare them.     

What's really disgusting to me is that my husband - who has also worked his ass off for a gazillion years - is finally in a position to collect some of the stock options he's earned over the years from his company starting in 2010 - just in time for whatever tax raises the democrats decide to impose which will push us right into the higher brackets.  It really sucks because he's at the age where he will be collecting those stock options year in and year out and the taxes are going to really hurt.  We don't live extravagantly - never have and never will.  But we both work hard and in an Obama world, that's code word for taking whatever they deem is too much. 

We've never endeavored to be wealthy or rich - just to be able to take care of ourselves as we grow older.  But that's not good enough for the DUmmies.  It drives me crazy when I hear people say that rich people don't need "all that money."  Who are they to judge what other people need?   

[Oceander]

What's really disgusting to me is that my husband - who has also worked his ass off for a gazillion years - is finally in a position to collect some of the stock options he's earned over the years from his company starting in 2010 - just in time for whatever tax raises the democrats decide to impose which will push us right into the higher brackets.  It really sucks because he's at the age where he will be collecting those stock options year in and year out and the taxes are going to really hurt.  We don't live extravagantly - never have and never will.  But we both work hard and in an Obama world, that's code word for taking whatever they deem is too much. 

We've never endeavored to be wealthy or rich - just to be able to take care of ourselves as we grow older.  But that's not good enough for the DUmmies.  It drives me crazy when I hear people say that rich people don't need "all that money."  Who are they to judge what other people need?   

Because they don't want you (or anyone, for that matter) making adequate provision for themselves and their retirement - they want each and every one of us to be dependent on the government, the federal government specifically, for our every need and want.  Someone who has provided for themselves is not a slave and cannot be controlled as a slave can be controlled.

[BlueStateSaint]

Because they don't want you (or anyone, for that matter) making adequate provision for themselves and their retirement - they want each and every one of us to be dependent on the government, the federal government specifically, for our every need and want.  Someone who has provided for themselves is not a slave and cannot be controlled as a slave can be controlled.

You have nailed it.