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NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 08:49 AM NON-DONOROriginal message Remember back when you didn't need a degree to get a good job? I entered the work force in May of 1973. I graduated high school a month or so later. Had other part-time jobs before that but this was my first real job. The kind of job you could actually raise a family on. A good union job. While still in high school. Imagine that.Back then top companies used to come to the schools to recruit students who were about to graduate right out of high school. For me it was while I was still in high school. The Ford people came into my shop class and recruited me. I built cars at night and went to school during the day.The Ford plant I hired into had over 4000 employees at that time. Another thousand or so white collar workers on the other side of the wall for payroll and benefits. They even had hundreds of part-time employees who would just work on Mondays and Fridays. Even the part time employees made good money.That plant I retired from now has less than 500 employees and they do minimal hiring. I know they don't come to the high schools to do any recruiting any more. Just the military does that now.When someone asks me where all the jobs are I tell them they are in Japan and South Korea. They look dumbfounded. Then I point out all the Toyotas, Hondas and other cars that are either made entirely in those countries or the parts that used to be made here are now made there and are shipped over here to be assembled.I tell them that is why there are no jobs for their kids any more.Some get it. Some don't.
rosesaylavee (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 08:58 AM NON-DONORResponse to Original message 1. I get it. And here's another gem that used to get passed around... If you get a BA in liberal education you can get a good job. No need to specialize as all they need to know is that you have that slip of paper. Now I tell my son that he better get at least one masters degree to guarantee he has a few choices when looking for employment. At least one masters degree. Isn't it nuts? All that debt to get a job to pay off that debt.
NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:03 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #1 2. After I passed the test to get into Skilled Trades and began my apprenticeship ... ... not only did Ford pay for the schooling and books they actually paid us our regular hourly rate for each hour we spent in school.I don't think we have anything like that any more.
safeinOhio (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:10 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #2 4. When I hired in at Ford in 1972 the HR guy wanted to make sure I would stay working at Ford and not go back to complete my degree. I did go back part time a got my degree 2 years before I retired and can not get a part time job at a gas station now. That's ok, I can't afford a new Ford anymore either.
NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:17 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #4 7. Lot of good jobs back then though wasn't there? Out of the hundred or so people who hired in the same day I did I was the only one to retire from there. Most quit the first week. Some quit the first day. They just went across the street and got another job at one of the other factories around there that paid just about as well. All those other factories are gone now.
Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:07 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #1 3. A pell grant used to cover 75% of tuition, now it is less than 25%. Student loans used to be just that: loans to students, not cosigned by their parents, cosigned by the federal government, with no interest until graduation and with highly subsidized interest rates after that.We have allowed our masters to create a modern kleptocratic feudalism where the techno-peasants are tied in generational perpetuity to their masters by mountains of debt for education, housing and healthcare. Peace and Love! What a ****ing joke.
midnight (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:44 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #3 10. Change this policy to return back to 75% grant money for financial aid.
get the red out (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:16 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #1 6. Is school a cover? Is more and more advanced education a way of keeping young people out of the job market longer BECAUSE THERE ARE NO JOBS? That is the effect anyway, that thought just struck me, but you are correct, a person needs more and more degrees to do anything these days. The flip side of that is that people without any education are being made into a serf class. This society is getting sick fast on a diet of so-called "free trade".
elocs (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:13 AM NON-DONORResponse to Original message 5. I've had a bachelor's degree for over 30 years and never had a good job that required it. I've had some good jobs, but nothing that ever required a college degree. I've also quit more good jobs than many people have ever had in the first place.
pampango (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:27 AM NON-DONORResponse to Original message 8. Did Mao have something to do with that? He was good at keeping the Chinese poor and out of the world economy. If his successor had stuck to his brand of "pure" communism, we might be much better off (if not the Chinese people).For 30 years after WWII we exported stuff all over the world without much competition. Our planes, tractors, bulldozers, food, etc were exported everywhere. Even if we had somehow kept China (and Europe and Japan and others) out of our market, they would be exporting to the rest of the world that used to buy our stuff.
SmileyRose (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:48 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #8 11. I never thought of that WW2 did cripple the manufacturing capacity of pretty much the entire developed world except the US. I really want to thank you for posting those 4 lines of text. You gave me a lightbulb moment -- the reason why I absolutely LOVE the DU.
D-Lee (334 posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:28 AM NON-DONORResponse to Original message 9. So true!
dem mba (268 posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:54 AM NON-DONORResponse to Original message 12. economies change what's so odd about that? labor needs change from generation to generation. technology evolves, businesses adapt, people move to San Francisco to mine gold, to Detroit to build cars, to Seattle and Silicon Valley to program computers. Same as it ever was.
Mari333 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 10:00 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #12 14. corporations changed , Reagan, NAFTA, greedy assholes they merged and took their Raygun tax breaks and ran to Mexico, China, India, and every country they could find to get slave labour to make their goods whilst unions were being busted left and right over here.and they got away with it, and are still getting away with it. Even Clinton was stupid enough to back it up.the small mom and pop companies ended, and the huge multinationals took over.its serfs and kings now.But by using slave labour to make their lousy products, the corporations have lost their customer base.Idiots.
Mari333 (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 09:56 AM NON-DONORResponse to Original message 13. I remember.
Hepburn (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 10:21 AMResponse to Original message 15. What I have noticed: During my mother's "seeking employment era," some of the help wanted ads required a HS diploma. During the same time period for me, the vast majority required this level of education.Now? Take a look ~~ many want a college degree, they don't even discuss a HS diploma.
alarimer (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 10:34 AM NON-DONORResponse to Original message 16. Define "good." Yes those jobs paid okay but they were mind-numbingly boring, leading to a mind-numbing existence in the boring suburbs surrounded by other boring people. The very thought of it makes me want to scream.I went to college because I wanted a CAREER, not just a job being a cog in someone else's machine. College is and should be more than vocational training. It is a time for intellectual exploration, something that will not happen if you have some boring-ass factory job with no future. It is also a time to have a little fun before 'setting down" (something no one should ever do in my opinion- enough with the stultifying suburban life), meet people you would otherwise never meet. The more education one has, the more liberal they tend to become. Education, like travel, broadens the horizons. In my opinion, that is the most important function of education. Sure, you can read all the books you want on your own but it is not the same thing at all.
NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 10:56 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #16 18. Good is being able to support my family with one paycheck I had friends who wanted to shoot for the stars rather than just getting a good job and get on with the business of raising a family.Most of them are either dead or in prison.No matter what your "career" is you are still a cog in someone else's machine. You either just don't know it or are afraid to admit it.Meeting interesting people never put food on the table.
reggie the dog (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 11:09 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #16 20. who cares if it is mind numbing lots of folks want just that, easy low strees mind numbing work with a nice salary.
StarfarerBill (312 posts) Sat Nov-21-09 10:46 AMResponse to Original message 17. You can rarely get a job *with* a degree, anymore. Nor does experience count for much. This recession is hurting everyone save its creators, the uber-wealthy.
MountainLaurel (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 11:19 AM NON-DONORResponse to Reply #17 21. Exactly what I was thinking In fact, experience hurts you, because it means that they have to pay you more than they would someone just out of school.
reggie the dog (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-21-09 11:07 AM NON-DONORResponse to Original message 19. I am 30 I never remember it being easy to get a good job even with a master's degree......
There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site
