DUmmies Discuss Career Advice From Uneducated DUmmy TwixVoy

[GOBUCKS]

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Fri Nov-20-09 12:43 PM
Original message
Shame all those CA students haven't figured it out
It's a shame all those students protesting in CA haven't figured out that college is a BUSINESS out to make money. How many people are aware that executives sitting on the board of major corporations also sit in upper level positions at some universities? Many people are not - but it's a fact.

The student loan system is designed to indebt students for decades, if not life. (for more info on this see http://www.studentloanjustice.org /)

Student loans can NEVER be discharged in bankruptcy. (with few exceptions, such as being paralyzed from the neck down) Student loan lenders can't loose. Many people are not aware of this, but guess what happens when a borrower can not pay a student loan? The feds pay the lender the balance of the loan. But guess what? The borrower is STILL on the hook for the full balance, PLUS any penalty costs. They can essentially collect from this borrower for life. They can seize bank accounts, garnish wages, and even take social security and federal tax refunds.

Colleges have no reserve about raising costs because they know the suckers will just borrow however much money is needed regardless of the fact they will never be able to pay it back. And they know the banks will be happy to cut them a check because the banks are essentially creating a host to feed off of like a parasite for life.

We are essentially creating a generation of debt slaves.

I also believe the lie of "everyone needs at least a 4 year degree from a major university" is the biggest marketing lie of this generation. Unless you are going to university for a HIGHLY skilled degree that few are capable of getting then you should be going to a trade school AT MOST. The claim that "everyone" should be at a major university is a lie meant to encourage debt slavery. Colleges are like vacation spots to weaker students. Four years (or more) of fun college life at the expense of your financial well being for the next few decades. They will be happy to offer them some crap degree that really means nothing. For example, when CSI became popular lots of schools started to offer CSI classes. What a joke. It is designed to appeal to the shallowness of this generation. Sure you can be just like the actors on CSI in real life! Just get our $50,000 CSI degree.

Of course most of these young people (and the vast majority of parents) haven't figured this out. They won't until they wonder why they are getting no where in life financially 10 years from now. Check out all the personal stories on http://www.studentloanjustice.org /. Lots of people that got taken back in the 90's. When the young people of this decade figure out they were taken for fools it will be far worse. One because they are taking on MUCH higher debt loads than those in the 90's, and two because the BS paper pushing easy jobs that paid middle class wages and needed a bogus degree of the 90's are gone and not coming back.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7054312
One suspects that if DUmmy TwixVoy has any education at all, it is an associate degree in crime scene investigation.

WCGreen  (1000+ posts)        Fri Nov-20-09 12:58 PM
1. I have always suspected a direct correlation between the availability 
of student loans and the cost of attending university or college.
There is a disconnect between the student eager to attend college and the price he/she will have to eventually pay.

msongs  (1000+ posts)      Fri Nov-20-09 12:59 PM
2. almost as bad as those farmers forcing us to eat food so they can make more $$ nt

 

Ruby the Liberal  (1000+ posts)      Fri Nov-20-09 01:03 PM
5. There was a job posting a few months ago for an 'office manager'
in a major metropolitan city. Requirements included 5+ years industry knowledge, marketing experience, sales experience, specific software experience and a minimum of a 4 year degree. No relocation offered.

DUmmies with their degree in "womyn's studies", "general studies", or "African-American studies" are lucky to get $9 an hour. But, hey, they managed to get a degree without those pesky math courses!

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Fri Nov-20-09 01:13 PM
12. I say refuse to play the game just like I said back in the middle of this decade about housing. I heard people bitch over and over that "Houses are too expensive!" but took out a loan knowing full well there was a major disconnect. Back then I would refuse to play the game. I knew it was a sham, so I stayed the hell away from getting any kind of loan to play in to the sham.

People should do the same for the student loan game.

Guess what? That office manager job was bull shit. $9/hour. They KNOW that is bull shit. But guess what? They will get plenty of suckers who paid $50,000 to $100,000 for a degree to get that $9/hour job.

Here's an idea... instead of paying out the ass to get a degree to get that $9/hour job simply ignore that job. Go get a job at Target for $9/hour instead. You still have a job that pays $9/hour, but are not in debt the rest of your life

What DUmmy TwixVoy fails to mention is that if you follow this advice, you will never make more than $9.

DUmmy TwixVoy had that $9 job at Target, then got fired for insubordination, so it's available now.

DUmmy TwixVoy is now on a $9 entry level job as a trainee cable installer, after 25 years in the workforce.

DUmmy TwixVoy is the DUmp's leading authority on financial planning and career advice.

[franksolich]

Actually, the green commode primitive is on to something I always thought I was the only one noticing.

WCGreen  (1000+ posts)        Fri Nov-20-09 12:58 PM

1. I have always suspected a direct correlation between the availability of student loans and the cost of attending university or college.

There is a disconnect between the student eager to attend college and the price he/she will have to eventually pay.

During the Reagan administration, when financial aid for college was expanded (yes, it was, lurking primitives, and substantially so), the purpose was to allow more to afford college.

But it didn't work out that way; what happened was college administrators and bureaucrats figured that with so much additional federal money, they could increase prices.

And so "more" couldn't afford college, and those in college had to pay more.

There is a coincidental similarity between federal aid for college, and the prices colleges and universities charge.

I saw this happen at the University of Nebraska, first hand and up close.

[Celtic Rose]

If you are a California resident and your family makes less that $70,000 per year, your tuition at a UC school, and probably a CSU school, will be covered completely by government aid, though you may still be responsible for books, housing, etc.  

I know that I would not have my job without a 4 year degree, and I started well about $9 an hour.  It has definitely been worth it, and I am now considering what Graduate degree I want to try for.  My mom would have kicked my @$$ if I had settled for working at target after getting a 4.2 GPA in high school (AP classes are wonderful).  At the minimum, she would have encouraged me get training in some sort of skilled trade so that I would have advancement potential in my field.

[The Village Idiot]

Its like insurance.

Lets say you are forced take out Motel Insurance, even though you don't generally travel.

You pay a monthly fee and if the need arose you can stay at a motel and its "covered".

Guess what? That motel knows you aren't paying directly, they can charge pretty much whatever they like.

This is what happened with healthcare and colleges and government.

[Carl]

Actually, the green commode primitive is on to something I always thought I was the only one noticing.

During the Reagan administration, when financial aid for college was expanded (yes, it was, lurking primitives, and substantially so), the purpose was to allow more to afford college.

But it didn't work out that way; what happened was college administrators and bureaucrats figured that with so much additional federal money, they could increase prices.

And so "more" couldn't afford college, and those in college had to pay more.

There is a coincidental similarity between federal aid for college, and the prices colleges and universities charge.

I saw this happen at the University of Nebraska, first hand and up close.

Which an intelligent and logical person (excludes primitives) would realize that "free" government paid for health care will not drive the costs down but instead the other way.

Unless there was a cap on payments or a restriction on services.
The first won`t happen as it would drive existing facilities into bankruptcy so the only answer would be the second.

[Texacon]

I agree with the DUmmie on this one.  I hate the fact that a lot of companies (any employers really) require college degrees for a lot of the stuff they hire for.  Most of it is complete and utter bullshit.  I was a welder for 10 years.  I built and repaired water/oil/gas/storage tanks.  Most of the work was up in the air hanging iron, fitting iron then welding iron but some of it was on the ground.  I got paid the same no matter if I was working up high or on the ground.

The other day I was talking to a guy who told me his grandson is going to college and getting his associates degree in WELDING!  I kid you not.  I almost fell over.

Why should someone have to have a degree to be a cop?  Game warden?  Manager for most companies?  I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

I have 7 hours of college credit and I make far more than most of the college graduates I know.  I think being successful has less to do with how many hours of college you were willing to do and more about how many hours of WORK you are willing to do.

Just my opinion.

KC

[The Village Idiot]

Direct result of schools graduating illiterate morons

[GOBUCKS]

I have never hired entry level employees without a four-year science or engineering degree from a college or university that I am familiar with. It assures me of some proficiency at mathematics and computer skills. It gives me some confidence that you have the perseverence to stick through a four-year grind. It gives me some confidence that you have a degree of maturity and responsibility, to reliably show up at a certain place at a certain time. It gives me some confidence that you have the ability to learn the technology that will be required to do the job beyond entry level. I am paying enough to hire people who have those qualities. You may have all those qualities without a four-year technical degree, but how do I know that? It isn't possible. I may still get fooled in an interview. It has happened. But I like the odds a lot better. That is why people with standard bachelor of science degrees will always have a huge advantage in the workplace.

[The Village Idiot]

A 4-year degree almost means a good likelihood the guy could pass a High School in the old days

[Texacon]

I have never hired entry level employees without a four-year science or engineering degree from a college or university that I am familiar with. It assures me of some proficiency at mathematics and computer skills. It gives me some confidence that you have the perseverence to stick through a four-year grind. It gives me some confidence that you have a degree of maturity and responsibility, to reliably show up at a certain place at a certain time. It gives me some confidence that you have the ability to learn the technology that will be required to do the job beyond entry level. I am paying enough to hire people who have those qualities. You may have all those qualities without a four-year technical degree, but how do I know that? It isn't possible. I may still get fooled in an interview. It has happened. But I like the odds a lot better. That is why people with standard bachelor of science degrees will always have a huge advantage in the workplace.

So let's give an example.  You have 2 candidates in front of you;

1.)  4 year bachelor of science degree at a good school with a decent gpa;  Never had a job in his life; 22 years old

2.)  HS diploma 6 years in the field; Comes highly recommended from the last job; 24 years old

There ya go.  Are you going to tell me you would automatically go for the BS?

KC

[NHSparky]

So let's give an example.  You have 2 candidates in front of you;

1.)  4 year bachelor of science degree at a good school with a decent gpa;  Never had a job in his life; 22 years old

2.)  HS diploma 6 years in the field; Comes highly recommended from the last job; 24 years old

There ya go.  Are you going to tell me you would automatically go for the BS?

KC

Tack on another one...even if the guy with the BS has a good (above 3.2) GPA and even did some intern work over his summers, compare him to:

Military, E-5, 4-6 years, 22-24 years old, 4-5 years experience in field, AS working on BS.

Who do you hire then?

[Texacon]

Tack on another one...even if the guy with the BS has a good (above 3.2) GPA and even did some intern work over his summers, compare him to:

Military, E-5, 4-6 years, 22-24 years old, 4-5 years experience in field, AS working on BS.

Who do you hire then?

Take off  the college time and you would STILL have a tough choice.

I put a lot of weight on someone being able to do the job for real not just theory.

I have a friend who wrote software for 20 years.  Was taught by the NSA while in the military.  When he lost his job back in 2002 or somewhere thereabouts he had a nice nest egg and decided to just kick back for a year or so and work on some fun stuff.  When he got ready to go back into the job market things had tightened up considerably. 

As he looked for a job everyone was telling him he had to have at least an associates degree to apply!  Can you imagine that?  How stupid of them.  He finally gave up and enrolled in a small college to get his associates in computer science.  I don't know how many profs did this but I know of 2 of them who told him they didn't need him in class.  The profs told him he knew more about computers than they did and gave him his work for the entire semester which he gave back to them in a couple of weeks. 

He got his degree in his early 40's .... by the time he got the degree his old job opened back up and he went back to work for them.

I'm sorry, I just think a lot of companies shoot themselves in the foot with some of their requirements.  They have essentially made it impossible to 'work your way up' from the janitor slot. 

KC

[ScubaGuy]

I have never hired entry level employees without a four-year science or engineering degree from a college or university that I am familiar with. It assures me of some proficiency at mathematics and computer skills. It gives me some confidence that you have the perseverence to stick through a four-year grind. It gives me some confidence that you have a degree of maturity and responsibility, to reliably show up at a certain place at a certain time. It gives me some confidence that you have the ability to learn the technology that will be required to do the job beyond entry level. I am paying enough to hire people who have those qualities. You may have all those qualities without a four-year technical degree, but how do I know that? It isn't possible. I may still get fooled in an interview. It has happened. But I like the odds a lot better. That is why people with standard bachelor of science degrees will always have a huge advantage in the workplace.

I agree with you on that.  Back in my management days part of my job was to go through hundreds of resumes, do the job fair thing and then do the interviews.  After getting burned on a few I just went with the requirement for candidates with only a few years of experience that a degree was required from institutions where I was familiar with the curriculum, and they had to have at least a 3.0 in their major.   When the odd resume came through and I wasn't familiar with the university, I would go online and check out their requirements for a degree.  Way too many schools skip the basics.

Experienced candidates, with or without a degree, that changed jobs every year or two were almost always rejected.  If they were with the same company for several years we would look to see if they were advancing in their career.

After all the initial screening then they had one long day of interviewing.  HR did the 'touchy-feely' are you a potential mass-murderer thing.  One engineer from the team did a tech. interview to see if they knew the basics.  One did a tech. interview on their previous work and got into the details of what they did there.  One did a tech. interview of what we were doing to see what kind of questions they would ask about our project.  A few others would take the candidate to lunch just to chat and get a feel if the candidate would work well with the team.  HR gave us a load of crap on the lunch thing but we learned the hard way how important it was.  We had hired a few that had all the prerequisites, aced the technical interviews but just could not work as part of a team.

Former military candidates did get special treatment.  If they completed their degree I wasn't quite as strict on the 3.0 GPA and if they were on their way to completing their degree it depended on how much they had left to do and their current GPA.  Every one that was hired without a degree did get their degree within a few years and the biggest problem I had with the military guys was  that I wasn't Mr. XXXXXX just call me by my first name.  That and teaching them that at certain times some 'rules' can be stretched, just use your own discretion when doing so.   All the military guys always did great on the lunch interview.  Teamwork was never an issue with any of them.

[GOBUCKS]

So let's give an example.  You have 2 candidates in front of you;

1.)  4 year bachelor of science degree at a good school with a decent gpa;  Never had a job in his life; 22 years old

2.)  HS diploma 6 years in the field; Comes highly recommended from the last job; 24 years old

There ya go.  Are you going to tell me you would automatically go for the BS?

KC

Yes.

[Texacon]

Yes.

Wow.  To each his/her own.

KC

ETA;  I guess that is why I don't work for companies like that but it has worked well for me.  I make more money than almost every single person I know who has a degree .... short of a couple of PhD's.  And I really like my job (s).

[GOBUCKS]

Tack on another one...even if the guy with the BS has a good (above 3.2) GPA and even did some intern work over his summers, compare him to:

Military, E-5, 4-6 years, 22-24 years old, 4-5 years experience in field, AS working on BS.

Who do you hire then?

I'd talk to the military guy as soon as he finished his degree. The military experience would be a plus, but the AS wouldn't be very significant. That may not be fair, but it's just the way it is.

[Texacon]

I'd talk to the military guy as soon as he finished his degree. The military experience would be a plus, but the AS wouldn't be very significant. That may not be fair, but it's just the way it is.

There is NOTHING fair about business ... you either got it or you don't.  How you finish determines who the winner is.

KC

[Rebel]

So let's give an example.  You have 2 candidates in front of you;

1.)  4 year bachelor of science degree at a good school with a decent gpa;  Never had a job in his life; 22 years old

2.)  HS diploma 6 years in the field; Comes highly recommended from the last job; 24 years old

There ya go.  Are you going to tell me you would automatically go for the BS?

KC

Two types of job markets, employee and employer. Right now it's an employer's market. Don't like it, blame the Democrats, Republicans, and, well, anyone who supports the current company-punishing tax system as it stands today. Fewer jobs = more competition. It is what it is. Only way to change it is to make this country business-friendly. Right now there's no other entity that faces more hostility. Well, maybe Americans who want to be left the hell alone.

[GOBUCKS]

Wow.  To each his/her own.

KC

ETA;  I guess that is why I don't work for companies like that but it has worked well for me. I make more money than almost every single person I know who has a degree .... short of a couple of PhD's.  And I really like my job (s).

I know there are lots of good people who have beaten the odds, and they should be proud of what they've accomplished. It's just that when you're making personnel decisions, you have to give your company the best chance for a valuable employee, and protection from lawsuits by unsuccessful applicants. To  do that, you need to resist, as much as possible, the urge to make exceptions to your stated policy.

[Texacon]

I know there are lots of good people who have beaten the odds, and they should be proud of what they've accomplished. It's just that when you're making personnel decisions, you have to give your company the best chance for a valuable employee, and protection from lawsuits by unsuccessful applicants. To  do that, you need to resist, as much as possible, the urge to make exceptions to your stated policy.

Oh, I've got no problems with that.  A policy is a policy.  I simply believe a lot of companies have shot themselves in the foot when it comes to hiring specific people.  I think they have had help from the colleges ... which is why I relayed the story of the Associates Degree in welding.  I mean ... really?  An associates degree to burn rods?  When I was building water towers and working as a foreman I didn't give a damn what kind of schoolin' you had.  When you walked on the job the 'Interview' was; YOU, a welding machine, a box of rods, a couple of pieces of steel, a grinder.  You got the job when; you welded the pieces together in the alotted time, it looked good AND it passed the bend test/xray/die check, etc... 

When all that was done you either had a job or you didn't and I didn't give a damn if you went to technical school, college, high school .... All I cared about was getting the job done.

Now, I work in a totally different type of environment.  I have been offered jobs in sales with rather large companies.  Most of them requiring a bachelor degree for the position.  A few of them stated they would waive the requirement but the smart ones (in my opinion) said "Will waive educational requirements for a proven track record".

Hey, you run your business the way you want.  As long as there are people to fill the slots there is nothing wrong with it.  You are obviously successful at what you do and THAT is all that counts.

KC

[Texacon]

Two types of job markets, employee and employer. Right now it's an employer's market. Don't like it, blame the Democrats, Republicans, and, well, anyone who supports the current company-punishing tax system as it stands today. Fewer jobs = more competition. It is what it is. Only way to change it is to make this country business-friendly. Right now there's no other entity that faces more hostility. Well, maybe Americans who want to be left the hell alone.

Naw.  I don't think there is really anyone to blame.  I simply think the colleges have done an outstanding job of marketing themselves.  Good on 'em!  They are a business just like everyone else.  The more you see people succeeding without them the more they will have to rethink their pricing but so far they are incredibly successful.  If they keep going up on price and the cost to attend outstrips what you will ever earn over your less educated counterparts .... they will have to rethink their business model.

No, I'm a capitalist and if the colleges can sell themselves to companies then I'm all for it.  I don't think the Dems or the Repubs have anything to do with it.  Those who go to school and see benefit ... good for them.  Those who don't and succeed, good for them too.  We all have our paths to walk.

KC

[Chris_]

The last person I'd take advice from is Twix.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7062401

[Chris]

bridgit  (1000+ posts)      Sat Nov-21-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. You're being called to a higher calling... You're free, to do what it is you will do to enhance & expand upon your own existence

 

Manifestor_of_Light  (1000+ posts)        Sat Nov-21-09 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. My doctorate and $3 will get me a cup of coffee at Fourbucks.  Unemployed and not looking anymore.

Last job I had was a temp job for nine days in the summer of 2001.

[NHSparky]

The last person I'd take advice from is Twix.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7062401

OMFG...the stupid, it burns...

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Sat Nov-21-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Field technician at AT&T
 
doing Uverse work.

Funny, but they're going gangbusters, even the "bankrupt" FairPoint up here is having problems keeping enough people on the payroll.  Or did you just show up late too many times during your "probationary" period?  Fail a whiz quiz?  Get caught rimming the boss' coffee cup?


 

TexasObserver  (1000+ posts)        Sat Nov-21-09 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. Tough break

... and a good reason people shouldn't pay off all their debt. 

Please tell me they didn't just type that.

And then TO gets into it with TwixVoy, calling him out on his posession of gold coinage and Twix's repeated claims of economic collapse...

[Doc Savage]

I think that some of the people graduating from school think that they are entitled to a job.  They forget that the employer owns the job, not the other way around.  I hire you to do something that I want done, you prove to me that you will be the best for me to make more money for my company, to advance the business.  It is not my job to provide employment, it is my job to make money, that that money I expand my business, expand my work force.  And if I am in the business of making switches for the electrical grid, I have NO NEED for someone with a degree in woman's studies.

Also these idiots need to realize that anytime they advocate taxing  evil cooporations, they are taking money away from profits and job creation.  but they do not see that.