Author Topic: primitives really wanna get a free ride  (Read 1598 times)

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Offline franksolich

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primitives really wanna get a free ride
« on: November 13, 2009, 06:33:47 AM »
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6166410

Now, this bonfire's some months old, but for some reason the naturalist primitive wants it revived, and has asked primitives to comment on it--that's in another thread here on conservativecave.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Mon Jul-27-09 11:18 PM
Original message
 
So, do you really wanna?

Hey DU, I dunno if anyone would be interested, but just in case, let me just throw a few questions out there:

Wanna end poverty immediately and permanently? Yes, it's possible!

Wanna get rid of the tattered welfare system and replace it with real economic security for all Americans? Yes, it's possible!

Wanna invigorate small business and open the door to massive job creation? Yes, it's possible!

Wanna improve working conditions and improve productivity and efficiency? Yes, it's possible!

Wanna protect the environment by giving people a real incentive to live sustainably? Yes, it's possible!

Wanna improve education, culture, and the tone of civil society by giving people a real option to pursue personal development? Yes, it's possible!

Wanna make America a worldwide example of progressive values, human rights, and compassion? Yes, it's possible!

Wanna make freedom a tangible reality in people's daily lives instead of just a slogan? Yes, it's possible!

Wanna jumpstart the economy with an infusion of cash from the bottom up, no bailouts necessary? Yes, it's possible!

Wanna do all this for little or no net cost? YES, it's possible!

So, are you curious yet? If so, just click "The Case For a Guaranteed Minimum Income" in my sig below.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Mon Jul-27-09 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
 
1. Bleh, there was an error during posting and this is absent from "Latest."

So now it gets to sink like a stone. Oh well,

Odin's left hand:

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Odin2005  (1000+ posts)        Mon Jul-27-09 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
 
3. Guaranteed Living Wage NOW!!!

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Mon Jul-27-09 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
 
4. It's not the same thing. 

A guaranteed minimum income is independent of employment, which is what makes most of the benefits I listed possible.

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Odin2005  (1000+ posts)        Mon Jul-27-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
 
5. DOH, my bad!

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
 
9. So does that mean you wouldn't support it?

If so, at least do me the favor of reading the arguments at the link before making your mind up.

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Odin2005  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #9

49. No, no, no,, I favor the guaranteed minimum income.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Mon Jul-27-09 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
 
6. If you unrec, please explain why.

I expected some unrecs on this just because of the subject matter. But at least have the decency to explain your objections.

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Cronus Protagonist  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
 
7. I un-recced

Not even close to being great. Repetitive and eyelid-closing.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
 
8. Yeah, definitely. 

A thread advocating the one and only immediate and permanent solution to poverty is quite "eyelid-closing." Rather than simply ignoring it, we should definitely do our part to vote it down and bury it.

Thanks for the unrec, and for letting us know where you stand.

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Cronus Protagonist  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
 
10. Well, you did ask.

No one knows why others also thought the post unworthy of the greatest page, but hey, it's not a vote against the cause, just against the content of the OP.

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TheKentuckian  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
 
14. I like it but you'd have to index it pretty aggressively to prevent it from being inflationary and leaving everyone in the same relative place at the trough. Still, it is abundant, cheap, and available energy that will be what gets humanity off the treadmill but this is if done right a wonderful bridge/foundation for the next generation of civilization.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
 
17. The inflation issue can be addressed

And has been addressed by the economists who support this. Google will turn up those arguments, if you're interested.

Abundant, cheap energy would definitely go a hell of a long way. But will the oil companies allow it? I dunno. Personally, I'm hoping for nuclear fusion. Done right, it could really revolutionize the world economy for the better.

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lame54  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
 
15. you're not selling amway are you?

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IrishBuckeye (216 posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
 
22. I don't think throwing money at the problem is the answer

You want to take money and create a high tech school system that gives everyone the chance for a premier higher education for free, fine I'm on board with that. You want to throw money at hospitals to take care of the poor, I'm for that to. Let's create the tools to get people out of poverty instead of throwing money at the problem expecting it to be the fix on it's own.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #22

25. What is education going to do for the disabled...

...and others who are out of the workforce long-term?

Education is great as a partial solution, but it won't eradicate poverty alone. And yes, the solution to poverty IS to "throw money at the problem." Poverty is caused by a lack of money. It has no other cause and no other definition. People need to understand this. Those who have an income above the poverty line *cannot* be poor. It is impossible by definition.

And, finally, do you realize that "I don't think throwing money at the problem is the answer" is an absolute classic, verbatim right-wing talking point form the Reagan era? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it just is.

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IrishBuckeye (216 posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
 
27. First off what's with lableing phrases 'Republican or Democratic'?

Phrases don't have a political parties so come on, let's cut that type of shit. Besides it's the the context behind the phrase that matters. The plan posted to fix poverty is to literally to throw money at it hence my use of the phrase. It's honestly one of the most ridiculous ideas I've heard to fix poverty. You remove what causes poverty, lack of money does not cause poverty...inequality, subpar education, bad health...these are the things that cause poverty and why poverty remains with us today.

Besides, The rules of supply and demand will remain in effect no matter how much money you give someone, we have limited resources and inflation will occur much more rapidily as more money is brought into a system and production value isn't increasing at the same rate.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #27
 
29. Poverty remains with us today because people like you oppose the solution.

The inflation argument is addressed by economists who support a GMI.

"Lack of money does not cause poverty."

Yes it does. Poverty is DEFINED as a lack of money. It is literally *impossible* to be poor if one has an adequate income. Therefore, ensuring an adequate income ends poverty. It's absolutely incontestable.

The reasons WHY one might lack money are many and varied. However, in ALL cases, permanently resolving this lack of money resolves poverty. It does so by definition.

"It's honestly one of the most ridiculous ideas I've heard to fix poverty."

It's the only one I've ever seen which will immediately and permanently end poverty with 100% success. What is ridiculous, in my opinion, is to imagine that band-aid half-measures such as the current pitiful welfare system, education, and similar solutions will get the job done. Any such approach will leave many people behind. A GMI will leave no one behind.

Like no child was left behind by dead ted's education bill?

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IrishBuckeye (216 posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #29
 
32. Your plan devalues the dollar, it takes away it's purchasing power

Thus lack of money does not equal poverty, ask Brazil, Argentina, or any other country who has gone through the devaluation of their currency, peopel had lots of money but couldn't do anything with it because $1000 became $1 overnight. It's the value of the currency that is important. Giving away mass amount of money without an increase in production is going to cause the dollar to lose it's value. We have limited resources thus supply and demand, this cannot be defeated.

You sound very silly to claim that poverty remains with us today because people like me oppose a crackpot idea of handing out money without a production increase. Increasing the health of the poor which in turn will increase the general education of the poor (undeniable correlation between the two)will in turn increase their production value (in our society)and thus lift them out of poverty.

The plan you speak of would only move the poverty line to where it is now to a higher number due to the devaluation of the dollar.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #32
 
36. Show me the evidence.

"Thus the lack of money does not equal poverty, ask Brazil, Argentina, or any other country who has gone through the devaluation of their currency, they had had money but couldn't do anything with it because $1000 became $1 overnight. It's the value of the currency that is important. Giving away mass amount of money without an increase in production is going to cause the dollar to lose it's value. We have limited resources thus supply and demand, this cannot be defeated."

Show me where any reputable economist, using hard numbers and figures, has demonstrated that supplementing poor people's incomes would produce such a drastic devaluation effect.

This canard comes up in every single discussion of a GMI, and so far, not one person has ever shown rigorous evidence that it would actually occur. Economists who support a GMI have shown that inflation would be minimal. Remember, a GMI is only supplementing the incomes of poor people. Progressive taxation will reclaim the benefit from those who do not need it; or, in the case of a negative income tax, they will not get it to begin with.

You sound very silly to claim that poverty remains with us today because people like me oppose a crackpot idea of handing out money without a production increase. Increasing the health of the poor which in turn will increase the general education of the poor (undeniable correlation between the two)will in turn increase their production value (in our society)and thus lift them out of poverty.

Are you aware that millions of poor people do not work for any number of reasons? Not all of them can qualify as officially "disabled," either (and the pitifully low sub-poverty benefits for those who do are another matter). I can't decide whether "increasing their production value and lifting them out of poverty" sounds like trickle down theory or Marxism. In either case, while it might be a valid approach to the working poor, it does nothing to address the reality of non-working poverty.

Eliminating poverty by supplementing incomes above the poverty line is hardly a "crackpot idea," and it's only in post-Reagan America that it could be considered such. Back in the 70's this got 9/10 of the way to Nixon's desk. It's also partially implemented in Brazil and under serious consideration in several other countries.

Odin's left hand:

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Odin2005  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
 
50. It only devalues the dollar if you don't increase taxes on the rich to help pay for it.

You only get inflation if you let the rich keep their money and then print money to give to the poor.

"crackpot idea of handing out money without a production increase"

Typical right-wing BS that dehumanizes people by using productivity as the measure of the worth of an individual. So us disabled people should be poor just because we are less "productive" in the eyes of our corporate masters? **** that BS. Everyone should have a right to a decent standard of living no matter how productive they are.

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leftstreet  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #22
 
30. 'Get people out of poverty' ? Let's just abolish poverty instead

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IrishBuckeye (216 posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #30
 
33. Sounds like Bush when he declared a war on a noun, now you want to abolish one.

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leftstreet  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #33
 
34. No, but I'd abolish the phrase "the poor" which you use liberally

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IrishBuckeye (216 posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #34
 
35. Uhhh, Why? Do you prefer 'financially challenged' instead? 

Fking PC cops are really a great group.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
 
37. Abolish poverty? What a crazy, crackpot idea. 

It's not as if poverty could be immediately and permanently ended by passing a single simple bill.

Oh, wait... huh? It can? Ummm.... well, that might cost ME something. Better cook up some excuses and objections pronto!

Oh, ohhh, I got it! You're crazy! You're a silly crackpot! It would devalue the dollar by a thousand-fold! Poverty is not caused by lack of money anyway! It's ridiculous!

Phew, that was close. Glad we disposed of that. I almost lost my dime to some freeloader.

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IrishBuckeye (216 posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
 
38. Giving healthcare to the poor? Making quality education available? Removing inequality? How Crazy!

Why would you do all that when you can just throw money at the situatuion and the problem would get all better! And heck, if that doesn't work we can always throw more money at it! We can just print more! Why create the tools that eliminate the causes of poverty and increases the production of value of people (in an economic sense) when we can just throw money at it? How easy, yaaaaa!

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
 
39. I support all of that. 

Health care? Check. Let's do single-payer. Education? Check. Let's make college free.

Oh, wait... we CAN'T, because that would require throwing money at those problems.

Crap... scratch that, then.

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IrishBuckeye (216 posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #39
 
40. Yes, with a return though, the production value of those enrolled increases

Which means they will have an opportuity to get a better job (means paying more in taxes) than those not enrolled, which means better health (less of a cost on the healthcare system), which means a much better chance for their children to increase their well being.

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Naturyl (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #40

41. Ah, so is this an issue of the "unproductive" poor being a waste of money? 

Have we gotten down to the core of it? Is helping the poor regardless of their circumstances a bad idea because it wouldn't produce tangible economic returns in some cases?

As I keep pointing out only to hear crickets, this "production value" approach is not relevant to all poor people. Some have no production value and never will. What of them?

Should poor people who are not going to "better themselves" (by your "production" standards) be left to starve? Should they be blamed for their own condition? Is a person's "production value" the sole determinant of their overall value? Do human beings not have inherent worth?

Just trying to sort out what's motivating your thinking here.

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IrishBuckeye (216 posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #41
 
42. It's partly an economic issue hence the use of the 'production' term

I agree some of my posts so a little like I'm talking about robots but I'm suggesting we create better avenues so people can escape poverty because at the end of the day it's not just about money. Example, you have drug dealers with money after all living in what is considered poverty (and yes plently of drug dealers in middle/rich class as well). Do you think money changes a culture? Will increasing the money those make change the scene that is riddled with an epidemic of violence, single mothers, and drug use? Or rather, does education and providing opportunities change that scene into a more peaceful and healthier one all while increasing the wealth status of those who partake?
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Offline Carl

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Re: primitives really wanna get a free ride
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2009, 07:29:47 AM »
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IrishBuckeye (216 posts)      Tue Jul-28-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #29
 
32. Your plan devalues the dollar, it takes away it's purchasing power

Thus lack of money does not equal poverty, ask Brazil, Argentina, or any other country who has gone through the devaluation of their currency, peopel had lots of money but couldn't do anything with it because $1000 became $1 overnight. It's the value of the currency that is important. Giving away mass amount of money without an increase in production is going to cause the dollar to lose it's value. We have limited resources thus supply and demand, this cannot be defeated.

You sound very silly to claim that poverty remains with us today because people like me oppose a crackpot idea of handing out money without a production increase. Increasing the health of the poor which in turn will increase the general education of the poor (undeniable correlation between the two)will in turn increase their production value (in our society)and thus lift them out of poverty.

The plan you speak of would only move the poverty line to where it is now to a higher number due to the devaluation of the dollar.


Making sense is not allowed at the DUmp.

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Odin2005  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jul-28-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
 
50. It only devalues the dollar if you don't increase taxes on the rich to help pay for it.

You only get inflation if you let the rich keep their money and then print money to give to the poor.

"crackpot idea of handing out money without a production increase"

Typical right-wing BS that dehumanizes people by using productivity as the measure of the worth of an individual. So us disabled people should be poor just because we are less "productive" in the eyes of our corporate masters? **** that BS. Everyone should have a right to a decent standard of living no matter how productive they are.


Which finally gets to the heart of what they want..they think they will be elevated to the level of the rich by doing nothing except taking what they have.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: primitives really wanna get a free ride
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2009, 07:36:47 AM »
Why don't they call it the

I DON'T WANT TO WORK BUT I DO WANT AS MUCH AS JOHNNYREB HAS"

Law.

I think we need a "MINIMUM EFFORT" law.....you either put forth a minimum effort or we let you starve.
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Offline Rebel

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Re: primitives really wanna get a free ride
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2009, 07:39:01 AM »
Wow! Raising the minimum wage to 20 dollars will cure ALL poverty! Why didn't anyone else think of that?  :thumbs:


.....of course, cheeseburgers would be 10 bucks, cars would be about 20K more, homes would start at about 500K, and a 12 pack of beer would cost half a Benjamin.


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Offline USA4ME

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Re: primitives really wanna get a free ride
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2009, 07:57:24 AM »
This is the "Negative Income Tax" proposal that's been floating around since sometime after WW2.  Even Milton Friedman discussed the idea in one of his books, and if carried out properly he saw some benefit in it, but there's no way it wouldn't be abused once gov't beaucrats got their grimy hands on it.

The naturyl primitive also doesn't seem to understand that the biggest obstacle to this would be the Democrat party.  If everyone is guaranteed a minimum income, then you eliminate victimhood on some level.  And where would the Dem party be if it couldn't exploit people as victims?  Oh sure, they could make the case that they must be kept in power or the people who are given money would have it taken away by those evil Republicans.  But keeping people as victims gets you a lot more bang for your buck.

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Offline jtyangel

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Re: primitives really wanna get a free ride
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2009, 08:08:18 AM »
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inequality, subpar education, bad health...these are the things that cause poverty and why poverty remains with us today.

they just never get it, do they? Not everyone in poverty is lazy, but they will not ever give a nod to the fact that a certain percentage of people are just that: they will always take the easiest way out, even if it means they live a meager and even shoddy existence.

DUmmies never seem to understand that people value different things in their lives. Some people give up a lot of money in order to have more time to spend doing things that they enjoy whether they be hobbies, relaxing, or hanging out with their family. I think sometimes what they really advocate is that if you value something over making a certain kind of living, you should still be compensated with that type of living. I'm sorry, but they need to get it through their thick skulls that it doesn't work that way. All parts of life are about making choices. One has to accept the choices they've made and if they want to change those, God bless the fact they live in a country where with some nose to the grindstone, they can change their direction. Is there a more forgiving place then the US that one can be a former drug addict or thief and still build a good life for themselves? Nobody is shackled by a caste system here save for what one's idiot parents shackle them with(makes me think of the previews for the movie Precious), but unlike a place like India, someone can still get out of it even with the hindrance of poor parenting on their shoulders.What Dummies don't get is it is sometimes just easier to be the way you've always been. Changes are hard, especially when you buck the only thing you've ever known. You want to change something? Change the culture in that area. Stop trying to change responsible families just because they think homosexual marriage is wrong and work on changing the culture of violence and underachieving that goes on in some other communities that keeps them strapped in their own miserable worlds. That's where liberals miss this: they try and change what doesnt need fixed and do nothing to change cultures that really are broken at the core.

Offline Duchess

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Re: primitives really wanna get a free ride
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2009, 10:59:21 AM »
Who do they think will volunteer to produce the goods and services for salary/wages that will then be given to those who don't want to work? No one. Then the Stalinism comes out into the open, as people must be forced to labor for what they don't get to keep. Then we end up with a soviet Russia style economy, with shoddy goods, poor service, shortages as the rule, etc. I suppose they wouldn't mind that, as long as everyone was equally poor. (Except them, they always somehow consider themselves the "elite" who are exempt from natural consequences).

All this boils down to, like most "equality" and "affirmative action" programs from the left, is a scam and a con at the expense of brighter, smarter, more motivated, harder working people who are able to be reliant upon their own intelligence and industriousness.

Offline Chris_

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Re: primitives really wanna get a free ride
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2009, 12:01:45 PM »

I think we need a "MINIMUM EFFORT" law.....you either put forth a minimum effort or we let you starve.

Love it!   :II:
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Offline LC EFA

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Re: primitives really wanna get a free ride
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2009, 03:54:52 PM »
Lets pay the unproductive to be unproductive. Sounds like a great idea too a lazy looter.

How many people of the age to enter the workforce would actually bother to work - when everything is provided for them without being required to lift a finger, and knowing that even if they did choose to make the effort and strive for something better, their effort would be looted or leached by those that chose not to make the effort.

The claim that providing Free Ponyâ„¢ Handouts will encourage productivity is patently false and this has been demonstrated nearly universally whenever it's been tried.

Providing said handouts has actually been demonstrated to cause the exact opposite nearly universally when implemented.