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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-09-09 08:49 PMOriginal message So, how long do I wait for this bread to rise if it's just sitting there laughing at me? The starter looked right and smelled nice and sour and not like gin.I was careful with the yeast when mixing the dough.The dough felt right.It didn't rise although it might have swollen. After the first non-rise, I took it out, punched what would have been down had there been an up, felt it up for a while, lol, formed it into pretty loaves and put it back on the pan in the oven. We're not speaking right now but I haven't given up on the relationship.
NMDemDist2 (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-09-09 09:59 PMResponse to Original message 1. is your kitchen too cool? try putting it in the cold oven for a bit I've had my bread be stubborn when my kitchen was too cold (or in Phoenix, too hot)bread is like Goldilocks, it will only play nice with 'just right'
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-09-09 10:11 PMResponse to Reply #1 3. This was the first very cold day of the season. It took me until noon to thaw me.So far, I'm not taking it personally.
housewolf (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-09-09 10:03 PMResponse to Original message 2. Question when you activated your starter, did it double in volume? You're working with a sourdough starter, is that correct? By "activate", I mean when you fed it and allowed it to double (at which point it's "fully activated") prior to mixing it into your bread dough?The reason it's important to activate a starter until double in volume before mixing it into your dough is that a starter can't rise a loaf of bread dough any more than it can rise itself.Forgive me if I'm making an incorrect assumption here, it's certainly possible that some other factors are at fault. How familiar are you with sourdough and with breadmaking in general? Can you give me a little information about what your recipe and process were in making the bread?
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-09-09 10:14 PMResponse to Reply #2 4. I think I've been starving the starter. It's my first batch and no, it didn't double. It bubbled nicely but I was only giving it 1T of flour and water per day.Maybe the poor thing is just trying to do its best under the circumstances?
housewolf (1000+ posts) Tue Nov-10-09 02:18 AMResponse to Reply #4 6. You probably are starving your poor Zool ... There are starters that are used just for adding some flavoring to a bread leavened with baker's yeast and then there are starters that are used to actually leaven AND flavor the bread. What you have going will add some flavor to bread, but it won't leaven a bread dough on its own - your yeast just isn't strong and vibrant enough. A true sourdough starter that will leaven and flavor bread on its own is a combination of yeast and lactobacilli. In a sourdough starter the yeast provides the rise while the lactobacilli provide the flavor (not 100% true, but mostly). But the yeast in a true sourdough starter is a slighty different strain of yeast from what we all buy - because the normal bread yeast that we use can't survive the acidic conditions of a sourdough starter that is created by the lactobacilli. I sourdough starter can be started without the use of baker's yeast because the microbes need to create a starter are availalbe on the flour, and the culture that forms over a period of days nurtures viable strains of yeast and lactobacilli. If you use bakers yeast to start up a starter, the starter will needsto go through a transformation in order for the correct strains of yeast to "fight it out" with the bakers yeast so that the starter can be sustained. Back in the early days of the internet I ran a bread forum online and posted a lot of information about starting and maintaining a sourdough starter. You can find that information here http://www.angelfire.com/ab/bethsbread/sdMenu.html if you are interested in checking it out. I was a little bit more of a purist in those days than I am now, but there is a lot of information there that can be valuable to you.Sourdough is a journey and a learning experience. Congrats to you for wanting to make the best bread that you possibly can for yourself and your family. There's nothing like sourdough! It IS possible for the home baker to make great sourdough at home, there's just of learning and experimentation ahead. I'm happy to try to help... PM me or post here and I'll get back to you. I'll bet we can get your Zool happy, strong and vibrant enough to make some great bread for you within a few days.
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Tue Nov-10-09 11:39 AMResponse to Reply #6 8. Thanks, housewolf. Well, since I replaced the starter used with 3/4 c ea flour, warm water, Zool probably had the best meal ever yesterday. And he's out of the refrigerator for now. I'll go read and see what you were up to. I went ahead and baked the poor little loaves anyway to see what would show up. The texture and flavor and even tension isn't bad at all -- they just never rose. The scent of fresh sourdough is just about killing all of us here, so I better get to work.
hippywife (1000+ posts) Tue Nov-10-09 12:36 PMResponse to Reply #8 11. See, I tol' ya! housewolf rocks on breads! And is such a huge and generous advisor.
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Tue Nov-10-09 12:56 PMResponse to Reply #11 12. You did! I'm totally fascinated by this process right now. And housewolf's instructions, tips and considerations are much more clearly written than most of the material I've found.
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-09-09 10:19 PMResponse to Reply #2 5. These were the instructions I followed but * 1 (.25 ounce) package active dry yeast* 2 cups warm water* 2 cups all-purpose flourDirections1. In large non-metallic bowl, mix together dry yeast, 2 cups warm water, and 2 cups all purpose flour and cover loosely.2. Leave in a warm place to ferment, 4 to 8 days. Depending on temperature and humidity of kitchen, times may vary. Place on cookie sheet in case of overflow. Check on occasionally.3. When mixture is bubbly and has a pleasant sour smell, it is ready to use. If mixture has a pink, orange, or any other strange color tinge to it, THROW IT OUT! and start over. Keep it in the refrigerator, covered until ready to bake.4. When you use starter to bake, always replace with equal amounts of a flour and water mixture with a pinch of sugar. So, if you remove 1 cup starter, replace with 1 cup water and 1 cup flour. Mix well and leave out on the counter until bubbly again, then refrigerate. If a clear to light brown liquid has accumulated on top, don't worry, this is an alcohol base liquid that occurs with fermentation. Just stir this back into the starter, the alcohol bakes off and that wonderful sourdough flavor remains! Sourdough starters improve with age, they used to be passed down generation to generation!5. Use this starter to make the Sourdough Chocolate Cranberry Cake, and the Sourdough Chocolate Cake.http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Sourdough-Starter/Detail.a... but as you can see, they don't provide for feeding the starter so I stirred in 1T of flour and of water every day for 7 days. The starter, or Zool as I like to call him, has been doing something. No ugly smell or colors, just a nice alchohol smell and then on Saturday, the odor changed to sour. So I put Zool in the refrigerator, hoping to make something like BREAD today.
Paper Roses (305 posts) Tue Nov-10-09 06:41 AMResponse to Original message 7. At first I thought you had made the NYT bread recipe. I mixed up a batch last night. Since it needs 18 hours to sit there, I have to plan the time. When I got up this AM, the gooey mess had not risen at all. Since I do not have the heat on, the kitchen was a little cool overnight. I just plugged in an electric radiator. put a wood trivet on top and the covered bowl on top of that. Maybe it was too cold. We'll see if something happens for the next 8 hours. This is only my 3rd time making this bread. The non-rise did not happen before.
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Tue Nov-10-09 11:47 AMResponse to Reply #7 9. The dough here didn't rise because the sourdough starter wasn't really "on" yet. How's your gooey mess doing, Paper Roses? I've never tried the NYT's recipe. In the mid 80s, I was living up in the Santa Cruz mountains and a few friends would get together every week for crafting. We did all kinds of things but the breadmaking is what I remember best. It worked out well because we all made different mistakes together!
Paper Roses (305 posts) Tue Nov-10-09 12:31 PMResponse to Reply #9 10. It has risen some now and the bubbles are starting to develop. The 18 hours are up at about 2PM. I will then bake this little loaf. I think it is the easiest thing in the world to do. I'm sure it was too cold in the kitchen. The radiator thing really helped.
I lived in the Santa Cruz mountains for many years. Manson did not hang out there, but quite a few other serial killers did. You had your trailside killer, David Carpenter, your mother decapitator and coed killer Edmund Kemper, your father hater and earthquake preventer Herb Mullin....
I read a big long article once on sourdough bread (I was captive in a car). I can tell you that this task is much, much too hard for Beth. It involves science, art, and a lot of research and know-how. In over her head, just like her messiah.
