"Earth Liberation Front" strikes in Washington State

[Rebel]

Let's get back to this:

If tree spiking is done with the intent of trying to kill or harm people then it is not even close to being an effective way to do that. First of all, logging companies check trees with metal detectors before cutting into them. Second, chainsaws are equipped with chain guards to prevent the chains from injuring operators. Third, spikes are usually placed high above the point at which trees are cut. Fourth, groups which practice tree spiking warn logging companies about which areas are spiked.

I know you libs like the throw some off the wall bullshit out there when you think it'll somehow strengthen your point, but once you're challenged, you completely change direction, but I'm not letting you off that easily.

[Crazy Horse]

So what all do you know about logging and tree spikes......any first hand accounts?


I have no way of verifying what you say. If tree spikes have caused deaths and injuries, then you should have no trouble producing news articles about those deaths and injuries.

Why not start with answering the question asked.

Do YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT LOGGING AND TREE SPIKES?

Just because things aren't on the internet doesn't make them not true, and just because it's on the internet doesn't make it true.

In 1987, California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by a tree spike.

Tree spiking was declared a federal felony in the United States in 1988. (18 U.S. Code 1864).

Also are you calling me a liar because you can't confirm what I said? I have cut into a quite a few Fir, Hemlock, Madrona, Alder and Red Cedar that had spikes in all different locations. You will not find any news articles on this. They have caused many dfferent reactions and damage to my saws. A few of them were in what if's just because of doing things when the kick backs happened.

So again do YOU know anything about logging and chainsaws other than what's on the internet?

[Crazy Horse]

Another thing TNO,................Do you have any idea what Power heads, Bars, chain, wedges, calks, spurs, harnesses, bar oil, 2 cycle mix, axes, files etc cost when you are logging?

[Crazy Horse]

Let's get back to this:

If tree spiking is done with the intent of trying to kill or harm people then it is not even close to being an effective way to do that. First of all, logging companies check trees with metal detectors before cutting into them. Second, chainsaws are equipped with chain guards to prevent the chains from injuring operators. Third, spikes are usually placed high above the point at which trees are cut. Fourth, groups which practice tree spiking warn logging companies about which areas are spiked.

I know you libs like the throw some off the wall bullshit out there when you think it'll somehow strengthen your point, but once you're challenged, you completely change direction, but I'm not letting you off that easily.

Those have been answered and ignored in normal liberal fashion

[The Night Owl]

In 1987, California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by a tree spike.

Tree spiking was declared a federal felony in the United States in 1988. (18 U.S. Code 1864).

There you go. As I pointed out, only one injury has occurred as a result of tree spiking.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that tree spiking isn't potentially dangerous. What I'm arguing is that tree spiking is not nearly as dangerous as people here have suggested it is and it is certainly not intended to cause death. The suggestion that tree spiking is attempted murder is hyperbolic.

Also are you calling me a liar because you can't confirm what I said? I have cut into a quite a few Fir, Hemlock, Madrona, Alder and Red Cedar that had spikes in all different locations. You will not find any news articles on this. They have caused many dfferent reactions and damage to my saws. A few of them were in what if's just because of doing things when the kick backs happened.

So again do YOU know anything about logging and chainsaws other than what's on the internet?

I don't know anything about you. All I'm saying is that if your claiming that tree spiking has resulted in deaths is true, then you should be able to point out information to support that claim.

[Chris_]

Another thing TNO,................Do you have any idea what Power heads, Bars, chain, wedges, calks, spurs, harnesses, bar oil, 2 cycle mix, axes, files etc cost when you are logging?

TNO has unlimited funds -- he will be personally paying for property damage since it is so inconsequential.

[ReardenSteel]

The Night Owl...

Apparently, you, in your self-righteous zeal to malign me, missed the part where I defined ELF as a terrorist group. I believe that members of ELF who destroy or vandalize property should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I'd like to give you some credit for that. (bolded statement) Also like to say kudos for sticking to your guns in hostile territory and taking on most/all comers. A task made even more difficult when your firing blanks. I kid, I kid. (I gave you credit just now)

Yes. Groups which willfully targets human beings for destruction are far worse than a group like ELF which willfully targets structures for destruction.

Are you suggesting that property is as valuable as human life? I hope not.

I have to call you out on that statement. What you present is a false choice. Here we have a philisophical, and importanly, a fundamental difference. (we, as in, me and you, I'm not speaking for anyone else here at CC) I actually mean to say is that, "property IS life". At the very least, the two are not entirely mutually exclusive.

Geh, let me just lay it out as best as I can...

1st fundamental-
Humans have a "right to life"

2nd fundamental (a derivative of the first)-
Humans have a "right to liberty"

3rd fundamental (a derivative as well)-
Humans have a "right to property"

Human life is a life of a specific kind with specific means of survival. The mind. We don't just adapt to Nature (like plants and animals) we adapt nature to us. And we do so by the process of thought. From caves to skyscrapers, campfires to nuclear power or from the alphabet to the internet. We do so with free will. Plants and animals do not live by choice and thought but by instinct and/or photosynthesis. Humans must live by choice which means we live or die by our capasity to reason.

WTH am I jabbering about? This...

The right to life- Means, no one has the right to club you in the head for no reason.

The right to liberty- Means, no one has the right to interfere with your process of sustaining your life. (productive work)

The right to property- Means, no one has the right to steal, use or destroy the product of your work. It's yours by virtue of the fact that you created it. Thus I say again, "property IS life". Or, at least, the result of a humans self sustaining action.

Now, if given the choice of having my house burned down or having myself burned down, I would choose my house for sure. But it is dishonest to claim I have not been robbed of a portion of my life. (all the hours, days and years of productive labor, the planning and the dreams are made an ash-heap) A man who puts a gun at your head and says, "your money or your life" offers that same false choice. He is demanding your life in either case. Your money, the product of your thoughtful labors, so that he may live as a thoughtless parasite.

[Crazy Horse]

In 1987, California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by a tree spike.

Tree spiking was declared a federal felony in the United States in 1988. (18 U.S. Code 1864).

There you go. As I pointed out, only one injury has occurred as a result of tree spiking.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that tree spiking isn't potentially dangerous. What I'm arguing is that tree spiking is not nearly as dangerous as people here have suggested it is and it is certainly not intended to cause death. The suggestion that tree spiking is attempted murder is hyperbolic.
[/qoute]

A 12-foot section of the huge sawblade had broken off and hit George in the throat and face, ripping through his face mask and cutting into his jugular vein. His jaw was broken in five places and a dozen teeth were knocked out. The blade was wrapped around him, and his co-workers had to blowtorch it off while they tried to keep him from bleeding to death.

"The saw hit me flat," said George. "If it had hit me with the teeth I'd be dead. I'm only here because my friend Rich Phillips held my veins together in the hour before the ambulance came."

Let this just sink in for awhile.

[The Night Owl]

I have to call you out on that statement. What you present is a false choice. Here we have a philisophical, and importanly, a fundamental difference. (we, as in, me and you, I'm not speaking for anyone else here at CC) I actually mean to say is that, "property IS life". At the very least, the two are not entirely mutually exclusive.

Well, I agree with some of what you're saying. I just think that even if we label ELF as being terrorist group, I don't think we should lump them together with terrorist groups which target human beings. Our laws consider intent for a reason... intent matters. Someone who does something stupid which causes injury or death is not in the same category of someone who commits murder.

[Attero Dominatus]

ELF costing hundreds of millions of dollars of damage and being guilty of attempted murder with their planting of steel spikes in trees taht are being logged is merely "childish".

Childish behavior can be dangerous. For instance, playing with matches is an example of childish behavior which has cost human lives.

Yet notice how his attitude on domestic terrorism changes when you mention the names McVeigh and Rudolph.

ELF is a terrorist group, but to compare ELF to people like Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph, people who willfully targeted human beings, minimizes the magnitude of what those two did.

ELF FIRE BOMBED a University up here... 18 people are on trial. they caused over 7 million dollars worth of damage to a public college.

do you only consider the body count as what 'minimizes the magnitude' of what they do?

The Dumb Owl is like all other leftists. Facts will not change its mind. It will just continue spewing the usual bullshit.

[Lacarnut]

Well, I agree with some of what you're saying. I just think that even if we label ELF as being terrorist group,

There is no if's and's or but's. The ELF is a terrorist group and for you imply otherwise makes you a raving moonbat crazy liberal wackoo.

[ReardenSteel]

I have to call you out on that statement. What you present is a false choice. Here we have a philisophical, and importanly, a fundamental difference. (we, as in, me and you, I'm not speaking for anyone else here at CC) I actually mean to say is that, "property IS life". At the very least, the two are not entirely mutually exclusive.

Well, I agree with some of what you're saying. I just think that even if we label ELF as being terrorist group, I don't think we should lump them together with terrorist groups which target human beings. Our laws consider intent for a reason... intent matters. Someone who does something stupid which causes injury or death is not in the same category of someone who commits murder.

Sure. For example, a drunk driver vs  a Mob hit. (intent matters)

With ELF, at least in there actions so far, the intent is self declared. There intent was to destroy (by arson, tree spikes, etc) there intent was to bring about terror, again self declared (by calling card, manifesto, graffitti) and they threw in the motive for the crime as well. (their politics are beside the point, a crime is a crime is a crime) So the maximum penilty under the law for each of arson, domestic terrorism, a boatload of conspiracy charges, (if not murder, see "intent", then...) reckless endangerment and any number of other charges someone who knows about the law (see, not me) might throw at them up to tresspasing and littering.

Also, should (see, when) they eventually do kill someone they can still be nailed in Tort Law where the standard of proof for intent is much, much lower. If it's the usual "trust fund" baby crowd they can hear about ma and pa going broke while they rot in jail for life on consecutive sentences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort_law

Negligence means conduct that is culpable because it misses the legal standard required of a reasonable person in protecting individuals against foreseeably risky, harmful acts of other members of society

or

Intentional torts are any intentional acts that are reasonably foreseeable to cause harm to an individual, and that do so.

or

Property torts involve any intentional interference with the property rights of the claimant.

or

The tort of nuisance allows a claimant (formerly plaintiff) to sue for most acts that interfere with their use and enjoyment of their land.

[TheSarge]

I'd like to know where he gets all that information.

It almost sounds like he's getting it from one of their brochures.

[Chris_]

In 1987, California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by a tree spike.

Tree spiking was declared a federal felony in the United States in 1988. (18 U.S. Code 1864).

There you go. As I pointed out, only one injury has occurred as a result of tree spiking.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that tree spiking isn't potentially dangerous. What I'm arguing is that tree spiking is not nearly as dangerous as people here have suggested it is and it is certainly not intended to cause death. The suggestion that tree spiking is attempted murder is hyperbolic.

Also are you calling me a liar because you can't confirm what I said? I have cut into a quite a few Fir, Hemlock, Madrona, Alder and Red Cedar that had spikes in all different locations. You will not find any news articles on this. They have caused many dfferent reactions and damage to my saws. A few of them were in what if's just because of doing things when the kick backs happened.

So again do YOU know anything about logging and chainsaws other than what's on the internet?

I don't know anything about you. All I'm saying is that if your claiming that tree spiking has resulted in deaths is true, then you should be able to point out information to support that claim.

Holy cow... so you only found one reported injury on the internet, therefore only one has occurred.     Un-friggin' believable.

[Crazy Horse]

In 1987, California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by a tree spike.

Tree spiking was declared a federal felony in the United States in 1988. (18 U.S. Code 1864).

There you go. As I pointed out, only one injury has occurred as a result of tree spiking.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that tree spiking isn't potentially dangerous. What I'm arguing is that tree spiking is not nearly as dangerous as people here have suggested it is and it is certainly not intended to cause death. The suggestion that tree spiking is attempted murder is hyperbolic.

Also are you calling me a liar because you can't confirm what I said? I have cut into a quite a few Fir, Hemlock, Madrona, Alder and Red Cedar that had spikes in all different locations. You will not find any news articles on this. They have caused many dfferent reactions and damage to my saws. A few of them were in what if's just because of doing things when the kick backs happened.

So again do YOU know anything about logging and chainsaws other than what's on the internet?

I don't know anything about you. All I'm saying is that if your claiming that tree spiking has resulted in deaths is true, then you should be able to point out information to support that claim.

Holy cow... so you only found one reported injury on the internet, therefore only one has occurred.     Un-friggin' believable.

I can say that's all I found. I also found a refrence to three confirmed deaths, though nothing from that.

I personally have hit 9 spikes while cutting trees. Two of those incidents have thrown the saw from my hand. One other broke my chain.

One was from felling a tree and the other cutting to length for the saw mill.

The one from cutting the tree down I was driving a wedge as I cut, had I not been doing that I would have been in the path of the saw that was turning over 14,000 rpm that went flying.

The other I was running tape for the saw mill lengths............I started cutting and the spike would have been more than 20 feet up the tree and the bar missed me by about 3".

Another incident had a spike in a tree while I was limbing, broke my chain that was 72" and it went flying in front of me. Had that chain broken on the other side of the bar it would have hit me.

[Chris_]

In 1987, California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by a tree spike.

Tree spiking was declared a federal felony in the United States in 1988. (18 U.S. Code 1864).

There you go. As I pointed out, only one injury has occurred as a result of tree spiking.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that tree spiking isn't potentially dangerous. What I'm arguing is that tree spiking is not nearly as dangerous as people here have suggested it is and it is certainly not intended to cause death. The suggestion that tree spiking is attempted murder is hyperbolic.

Also are you calling me a liar because you can't confirm what I said? I have cut into a quite a few Fir, Hemlock, Madrona, Alder and Red Cedar that had spikes in all different locations. You will not find any news articles on this. They have caused many dfferent reactions and damage to my saws. A few of them were in what if's just because of doing things when the kick backs happened.

So again do YOU know anything about logging and chainsaws other than what's on the internet?

I don't know anything about you. All I'm saying is that if your claiming that tree spiking has resulted in deaths is true, then you should be able to point out information to support that claim.

Holy cow... so you only found one reported injury on the internet, therefore only one has occurred.     Un-friggin' believable.

I can say that's all I found. I also found a refrence to three confirmed deaths, though nothing from that.

I personally have hit 9 spikes while cutting trees. Two of those incidents have thrown the saw from my hand. One other broke my chain.

One was from felling a tree and the other cutting to length for the saw mill.

The one from cutting the tree down I was driving a wedge as I cut, had I not been doing that I would have been in the path of the saw that was turning over 14,000 rpm that went flying.

The other I was running tape for the saw mill lengths............I started cutting and the spike would have been more than 20 feet up the tree and the bar missed me by about 3".

Another incident had a spike in a tree while I was limbing, broke my chain that was 72" and it went flying in front of me. Had that chain broken on the other side of the bar it would have hit me.

I have no problem believing you.  TNO on the other (left) hand won't unless there is a story to back you up on the internet.  What a sad e-life.

[Lauri]

ELF costing hundreds of millions of dollars of damage and being guilty of attempted murder with their planting of steel spikes in trees taht are being logged is merely "childish".

Childish behavior can be dangerous. For instance, playing with matches is an example of childish behavior which has cost human lives.

Yet notice how his attitude on domestic terrorism changes when you mention the names McVeigh and Rudolph.

ELF is a terrorist group, but to compare ELF to people like Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph, people who willfully targeted human beings, minimizes the magnitude of what those two did.

ELF FIRE BOMBED a University up here... 18 people are on trial. they caused over 7 million dollars worth of damage to a public college.

do you only consider the body count as what 'minimizes the magnitude' of what they do?

The Dumb Owl is like all other leftists. Facts will not change its mind. It will just continue spewing the usual bullshit.

i think the problem lies here; TNO sees shades of gray in what ELF is doing. the rest of us see it as right and wrong.

ELF has killed animals but their intent was to free them.

ELF has burned tens of thousands of dollars in homes, using firebombs are I am not at all sure no one has been killed so far. I havent researched all of their escapades over the years.. but their intent is to firebomb and cause as much financial hurt on companies as they can. i guess when they finally get 'unlucky enough' to kill someone, if they havent already, TNO will yet again see it as an accident. since their intentions were clearly NOT to kill someone, but to destroy their life and livelihood. 

[Lauri]

In 1987, California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by a tree spike.

Tree spiking was declared a federal felony in the United States in 1988. (18 U.S. Code 1864).

There you go. As I pointed out, only one injury has occurred as a result of tree spiking.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that tree spiking isn't potentially dangerous. What I'm arguing is that tree spiking is not nearly as dangerous as people here have suggested it is and it is certainly not intended to cause death. The suggestion that tree spiking is attempted murder is hyperbolic.

Also are you calling me a liar because you can't confirm what I said? I have cut into a quite a few Fir, Hemlock, Madrona, Alder and Red Cedar that had spikes in all different locations. You will not find any news articles on this. They have caused many dfferent reactions and damage to my saws. A few of them were in what if's just because of doing things when the kick backs happened.

So again do YOU know anything about logging and chainsaws other than what's on the internet?

I don't know anything about you. All I'm saying is that if your claiming that tree spiking has resulted in deaths is true, then you should be able to point out information to support that claim.

Holy cow... so you only found one reported injury on the internet, therefore only one has occurred.     Un-friggin' believable.

I can say that's all I found. I also found a refrence to three confirmed deaths, though nothing from that.

I personally have hit 9 spikes while cutting trees. Two of those incidents have thrown the saw from my hand. One other broke my chain.

One was from felling a tree and the other cutting to length for the saw mill.

The one from cutting the tree down I was driving a wedge as I cut, had I not been doing that I would have been in the path of the saw that was turning over 14,000 rpm that went flying.

The other I was running tape for the saw mill lengths............I started cutting and the spike would have been more than 20 feet up the tree and the bar missed me by about 3".

Another incident had a spike in a tree while I was limbing, broke my chain that was 72" and it went flying in front of me. Had that chain broken on the other side of the bar it would have hit me.

using TNO debate tactics; "you didnt get hurt, so their intention clearly was not to kill you"

i think TNO is a defense lawyers wet dream of a stupid jury.

[Crazy Horse]

In 1987, California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by a tree spike.

Tree spiking was declared a federal felony in the United States in 1988. (18 U.S. Code 1864).

There you go. As I pointed out, only one injury has occurred as a result of tree spiking.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that tree spiking isn't potentially dangerous. What I'm arguing is that tree spiking is not nearly as dangerous as people here have suggested it is and it is certainly not intended to cause death. The suggestion that tree spiking is attempted murder is hyperbolic.

Also are you calling me a liar because you can't confirm what I said? I have cut into a quite a few Fir, Hemlock, Madrona, Alder and Red Cedar that had spikes in all different locations. You will not find any news articles on this. They have caused many dfferent reactions and damage to my saws. A few of them were in what if's just because of doing things when the kick backs happened.

So again do YOU know anything about logging and chainsaws other than what's on the internet?

I don't know anything about you. All I'm saying is that if your claiming that tree spiking has resulted in deaths is true, then you should be able to point out information to support that claim.

Holy cow... so you only found one reported injury on the internet, therefore only one has occurred.     Un-friggin' believable.

I can say that's all I found. I also found a refrence to three confirmed deaths, though nothing from that.

I personally have hit 9 spikes while cutting trees. Two of those incidents have thrown the saw from my hand. One other broke my chain.

One was from felling a tree and the other cutting to length for the saw mill.

The one from cutting the tree down I was driving a wedge as I cut, had I not been doing that I would have been in the path of the saw that was turning over 14,000 rpm that went flying.

The other I was running tape for the saw mill lengths............I started cutting and the spike would have been more than 20 feet up the tree and the bar missed me by about 3".

Another incident had a spike in a tree while I was limbing, broke my chain that was 72" and it went flying in front of me. Had that chain broken on the other side of the bar it would have hit me.

using TNO debate tactics; "you didnt get hurt, so their intention clearly was not to kill you"

i think TNO is a defense lawyers wet dream of a stupid jury.

I believe you are correct........and when a chainsaw that houses 120cc's of power with a 36" bar went flying by my head due to a spike out there in the great North West................yep nobody had any reaon to think or try to kill me, they were just deterring me

[Gwitness]

and here is the money shot i just read in the article above..

Waters, who grew up outside of Philadelphia, attended The Evergreen State College.

 boy, i sure didnt see that coming.. 

seems to be endemic.......I wonder how many Evergreen State students are in fact FBI agents.

[The Night Owl]

I can say that's all I found. I also found a refrence to three confirmed deaths, though nothing from that.

Well, put up your reference.

[Rebel]

I can say that's all I found. I also found a refrence to three confirmed deaths, though nothing from that.

Well, put up your reference.

If tree spiking is done with the intent of trying to kill or harm people then it is not even close to being an effective way to do that. First of all, logging companies check trees with metal detectors before cutting into them. Second, chainsaws are equipped with chain guards to prevent the chains from injuring operators. Third, spikes are usually placed high above the point at which trees are cut. Fourth, groups which practice tree spiking warn logging companies about which areas are spiked.

You first.

[The Night Owl]

If tree spiking is done with the intent of trying to kill or harm people then it is not even close to being an effective way to do that. First of all, logging companies check trees with metal detectors before cutting into them. Second, chainsaws are equipped with chain guards to prevent the chains from injuring operators. Third, spikes are usually placed high above the point at which trees are cut. Fourth, groups which practice tree spiking warn logging companies about which areas are spiked.

You first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_spiking

[Rebel]

If tree spiking is done with the intent of trying to kill or harm people then it is not even close to being an effective way to do that. First of all, logging companies check trees with metal detectors before cutting into them. Second, chainsaws are equipped with chain guards to prevent the chains from injuring operators. Third, spikes are usually placed high above the point at which trees are cut. Fourth, groups which practice tree spiking warn logging companies about which areas are spiked.

You first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_spiking

Saying "some" doesn't back up your claim.

[Crazy Horse]

If tree spiking is done with the intent of trying to kill or harm people then it is not even close to being an effective way to do that.

First of all, logging companies check trees with metal detectors before cutting into them.

Ah the smug know it all retort, yet the refrence you give says that SOME saw mills check logs with metal detectors. So nowhere does it say that the loggers check a tree with a metal detector before cutting into them. So I guess there is no fact or truth in your statement.

Second, chainsaws are equipped with chain guards to prevent the chains from injuring operators.

So what is your refrence(other than it was on wiki) that chain guards prevent the chains from injuring the operator? The chain brakes and hand covering do not prevent chains from injuring the operator, they reduce the risk, but do not prevent. So another untrue statement.

Third, spikes are usually placed high above the point at which trees are cut.

Makes no difference in the swaw mill nor while cutting lengths, yet not mentioned in the wiki article, So is this a half true statement?

Fourth, groups which practice tree spiking warn logging companies about which areas are spiked.[/b][/size][/color]

Some do and some don't. Also they have to be more specific than an area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_spiking

So you have no idea if the info on wiki is true or not.