subway cat illuminates us on church history

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6653913

Oh my.

This bonfire--other than the primitive originally posting it, the subway cat's the only one who showed up at it--was lit three weeks ago, but comes up as "recent."

Since I had already loaded it in the boat to bring over here, I might as well post it.

Never mind the original topic; let's get right to the meat of the matter.

undergroundpanther  (1000+ posts)        Tue Sep-29-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
 
1. Abortion WAS allowed by the church..

It is also biblically OK too.

Those control freak cherry pickers of bible verses want observers of their idiot arguments to forget that the bible is not forced pregnancy..

The real motive of all this shit IMO is about keeping the 'nuclear family' arrangement designed to keep women dependent upon therefore subservient to, men(for bullies it was great considering the ugly history of marriage and it was once legal for husbands to beat their wives )..

Congress has never provided funding for domestic violence counseling and services for battered women in the welfare system, while spending billions to promote marriage and fatherhood.

And that family trap is designed to keep men dependent upon jobs and subservient to bosses and wall street.Tie a man's ego to his job and the possibility of eternal life via paternity of kids and he's hooked forever.

And people who complain about welfare,FYI being dependent upon a company that leeches from the government is no different than being on government welfare except that you work day after day,letting the same rich parasites rob you of the days of your life for peanuts, you are dependent upon faceless corporations that have little protection for employees,that work for rich pigs that depend upon government corporate welfare which easily outstrips the programs to help the poor.

Corporations that bribe the government to vote as the corporation wants even if most Americans would want their elected reps to vote differently is massive bribery and workers help fund that bribery.

WE all are dependant,even the independent mountain man of myth he depended upon rain for his meager garden,trees to make a shelter and warm his bones and cook,hunting and gathering he was dependant upon the earth as we all are still regardless of who claims they'own' it.We all are dependant in some way..So being on welfare by proxy via a job is still depending on a kind of corporate welfare,and it funds the very bribes that keep the status quo that hurts most americans....Chew on that. poverty bashers

Here is the evidence they pull this whole abortion issue out of their ass.

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”

Ask the forced pregnancy assholes about THAT verse.

Romans 13: 1-7

“Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which god has established. The authorities that exist have been established by god. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what god has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he shall commend you. For he is god’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is god’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. There fore it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are god’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes, if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”

Clearly it is the job of Christians to obey the laws, and the laws of this country clearly state that abortion is legal. So too should Christians respect and honor that law. God commands them to NOT disobey, which entails attempting to get the law overturned. If god wanted abortion to be illegal he wouldn’t have appointed authorities to make it legal.

Forced pregnancy assholes need to STFU, becaustheirer god tells them to STFU about abortion laws.

Christian texts

Tertullian, a 2nd and 3rd century Christian theologian, also described surgical implements which were used in a procedure similar to the modern dilation and evacuation. One tool had a "nicely-adjusted flexible frame" used for dilation, an "annular blade" used to curette, and a "blunted or covered hook" used for extraction. The other was a "copper needle or spike". He attributed ownership of such items to Hippocrates, Asclepiades, Erasistratus, Herophilus, and Soranus.

Tertullian's description is prefaced as being used in cases in which abnormal positioning of the fetus in the womb would endanger the life of the pregnant women. Saint Augustine, in Enchiridion, makes passing mention of surgical procedures being performed to remove fetuses which have expired in utero. Aulus Cornelius Celsus, a 1st century Roman encyclopedist, offers an extremely detailed account of a procedure to extract an already dead fetus in his only surviving work, De Medicina.

In Book 9 of Refutation of all Heresies, Hippolytus of Rome, another Christian theologian of the 3rd century, wrote of women tightly binding themselves around the middle so as to "expel what was being conceived."

Abortion is one way to protect women,and ironically children from patriarchical abuse.

Some of the above's the subway cat's own verbiage, the rest from wikipedia.

[Celtic Rose]

Umm, no, the church has never supported abortion 

Saint John Chrysostom (c. 347–407)

"Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit? -where there are many efforts at abortion?- where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born. Why then do thou abuse the gift of God, and fight with his laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter?"

From his homily of Roman 24

Saint Basil the Great (329-279 AD)

 "A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible among us."

I'm sure I could find some earlier quotes from great teachers and writers in the church if the 4th century is not early enough.

[ScubaGuy]

And people who complain about welfare,FYI being dependent upon a company that leeches from the government is no different than being on government welfare except that you work day after day,letting the same rich parasites rob you of the days of your life for peanuts, you are dependent upon faceless corporations that have little protection for employees,that work for rich pigs that depend upon government corporate welfare which easily outstrips the programs to help the poor.

 

[Karin]

Well, the crazy certainly runs deep on that one, doesn't it?  I'll just highlight this one:

And that family trap is designed to keep men dependent upon jobs and subservient to bosses and wall street.

Never mind the concept of earning one's own living in the world, and the feeling of worth and accomplishment derived from work. 

OK, so a guy doesn't have a wife and kids.  Does that mean he never gets hungry and needs no dwelling?  She is just such a kook. 

[The Village Idiot]

Thats a kook and Nothing but a kook

[delilahmused]

Wow, talk about completely taking things out of context! But if the Romans verse meant for us to obey governments, why aren't we all speaking German and hailing Dur Furer?

Cindie

[The Village Idiot]

Wow, talk about completely taking things out of context! But if the Romans verse meant for us to obey governments, why aren't we all speaking German and hailing Dur Furer?

Cindie

Romans has been badly misinterpreted and over the centuries has been re-interpreted badly so many times.

[Randy]

Just a quick question.

Just how is a dim bulb supposed to illuminate anything?

[BlueStateSaint]

Just a quick question.

Just how is a dim bulb supposed to illuminate anything?

If it "hopes for change" . . . 

[DixieBelle]

Oh my. I would have rather looked at parade pictures frank.

[USA4ME]

undergroundpanther

Clearly it is the job of Christians to obey the laws, and the laws of this country clearly state that abortion is legal. So too should Christians respect and honor that law. God commands them to NOT disobey, which entails attempting to get the law overturned. If god wanted abortion to be illegal he wouldn’t have appointed authorities to make it legal.

By that logic (?)     , if the law of the land clearly stated that citizens were not allowed to believe in God, then one should obey the law and not believe in God since "God commands them to NOT disobey."

 

.

[AllosaursRus]

Congress has never provided funding for domestic violence counseling and services for battered women in the welfare system, while spending billions to promote marriage and fatherhood.

What? Ya got to be kiddin', right? Congress hasn't given money to the states for Domestic violence?

Hey Panther Piss, maybe ya ought to look this up 'fore ya put your fangs into sumthin' that will come back and bite ya in the tush!

Take a look folks: The Feds legislation

Though it does not give any dollar amounts, it sure as hell is evident they are funding Domestic Violence initiatives! Anyone with a brainknows this kind of legislation entails funding to make it happen. Sorry, if you want dollar figs, look it up yourself DUmbass! I've certainly provided you morons with the jumping off point.

ETA comments

[Chris_]

undergroundpanther  (1000+ posts)        Tue Sep-29-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
 
1. Abortion WAS allowed by the church..

It is also biblically OK too.

Exodus 21:22-23 "Now suppose two people are fighting, and in the process, they hurt a pregnant woman so her child is born prematurely. If no further harm results, then the person responsible must pay damages in the amount the woman's husband demands and the judges approve. But if any harm results, then the offender must be punished according to the injury. If the result is death, the offender must be executed.

[MrsSmith]

Exodus 21:22-23 "Now suppose two people are fighting, and in the process, they hurt a pregnant woman so her child is born prematurely. If no further harm results, then the person responsible must pay damages in the amount the woman's husband demands and the judges approve. But if any harm results, then the offender must be punished according to the injury. If the result is death, the offender must be executed.

Exactly.  If someone kills a premature child, his life is forfeit.

[franksolich]

Oh my. I would have rather looked at parade pictures frank.

Me too, but the subway cat hasn't put them up on Skins's island.

Maybe the subway cat put them up on her personal web-site.

Anybody remember the http of that web-site?

[Chris_]

I'm not knowledgeable about the workings of rocket engines. I've seen them on display at Kennedy Space Center, but I don't know the specifics of how they work. With that in mind I try to follow two rules. The first is that I do NOT attempt to present myself as an expert on the workings of rocket engines. The second is that if I do decide that I want to try to have a discussion about the workings of rocket engines I read up and study about them jut a bit so as not to make myself appear to be completely ignorant.

Maybe the members of the DUmp need to consider those rules when they have thoughts of discussing the Bible.

[franksolich]

I'm not knowledgeable about the workings of rocket engines. I've seen them on display at Kennedy Space Center, but I don't know the specifics of how they work. With that in mind I try to follow two rules. The first is that I do NOT attempt to present myself as an expert on the workings of rocket engines. The second is that if I do decide that I want to try to have a discussion about the workings of rocket engines I read up and study about them jut a bit so as not to make myself appear to be completely ignorant.

Maybe the members of the DUmp need to consider those rules when they have thoughts of discussing the Bible.

Fat chance the primitives will do that, sir.

[Chris_]

Me too, but the subway cat hasn't put them up on Skins's island.

Maybe the subway cat put them up on her personal web-site.

Anybody remember the http of that web-site?

I don't remember it frank. I just tried: http://imcompletelycrazy.com/ and got an "address not found" so that must not be it.

[The Village Idiot]

I don't remember it frank. I just tried: http://imcompletelycrazy.com/ and got an "address not found" so that must not be it.

was it lickmycatspaw.gay?

[thundley4]

I remember visiting its  myspace page once , but don't remember the name.  Does she list it on her profile?