Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight

[BlueStateSaint]

This ain't good.  I'm sure that the debate over the AR-15 family of rifles/carbines will resume with a new vigor.





Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
 
Oct 11, 8:28 AM (ET)

By RICHARD LARDNER

WASHINGTON (AP) - In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.


The rest of the article is at:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091011/D9B8SUPO0.html

Guys who have experience with 'em . . . could you lend your opinion to this?

[TheSarge]

It's been known for 40 years that you have to clean an M-16 all the time.  

The biggest problem I saw in Iraq was putting too much CLP on the bolt which in turn acts like a dirt magnet and gums up the works.

[dutch508]

clean your weapons all the time. ALL THE TIME.

Even a Kalishnikov will jam up if you don't take care of it.

The M4 series requires more work to keep it clean that the AK series, this is true. However, it is more accurate, better designed, and has a longer effective range than the AK series.

I had a polish Krinkov jam on me in Iraq. The dust and carbon gunk clogged the gas ports and froze up the bolt group. Had to break it down completely and work on it for fifteen minutes before it was back up.

That being said, in the middle of a prolonged fight, you just don't have time to wipe the bolt group down after 100 rounds.

That's why we always had a back-up on hand, as well as a couple of spare AKs laying around...just in case.

[BlueStateSaint]

clean your weapons all the time. ALL THE TIME.

Even a Kalishnikov will jam up if you don't take care of it.

The M4 series requires more work to keep it clean that the AK series, this is true. However, it is more accurate, better designed, and has a longer effective range than the AK series.

I had a polish Krinkov jam on me in Iraq. The dust and carbon gunk clogged the gas ports and froze up the bolt group. Had to break it down completely and work on it for fifteen minutes before it was back up.

That being said, in the middle of a prolonged fight, you just don't have time to wipe the bolt group down after 100 rounds.

That's why we always had a back-up on hand, as well as a couple of spare AKs laying around...just in case.

After I read the thing (I had to hit the latrine right after I hit "post"), I saw where a fair number of the guys had their M4s on three-shot burst (the article said "full auto") in the firefight.  Understandable.  Also, the article mentioned a M249 that had jammed, and it inferred that the gunner had fired about 650 rounds straight.

I just thought of something--how many shotguns are in a typical squad over there?  Dutch, I presume that you've used one . . .

[TheSarge]

After I read the thing (I had to hit the latrine right after I hit "post"), I saw where a fair number of the guys had their M4s on three-shot burst (the article said "full auto") in the firefight.  Understandable.  Also, the article mentioned a M249 that had jammed, and it inferred that the gunner had fired about 650 rounds straight.

You fire that many rounds through a SAW...a weapon with a history of jamming...and it's gonna lock up at some point.

I just thought of something--how many shotguns are in a typical squad over there?  Dutch, I presume that you've used one . . .

I can't speak for the units Dutch was with...but Mech Infantry doesn't have them that I've ever seen.  The last time I saw a shotgun in a unit...it was a Spec Ops unit.

[BlueStateSaint]

I can't speak for the units Dutch was with...but Mech Infantry doesn't have them that I've ever seen.

Maybe they should.

[Airwolf]

Only Time I saw  a shotgun in the Army was when we were  on alert status during the 80's while I was in the 101st. We hardly got any training in how to use them,not that you need much but we probably could have used them back then if we had to go to battle.

[thundley4]

Only Time I saw  a shotgun in the Army was when we were  on alert status during the 80's while I was in the 101st. We hardly got any training in how to use them,not that you need much but we probably could have used them back then if we had to go to battle.

we carried shotguns on the sub, but I only saw them during "repel boarders" drills.

[rich_t]

It's been known for 40 years that you have to clean an M-16 all the time.  

The biggest problem I saw in Iraq was putting too much CLP on the bolt which in turn acts like a dirt magnet and gums up the works.

Amen to that.  Some of the sand over there is like baby powder and CLP draws it like a magnet.  When I was in the sand box 90-91, I made my troops clean their M16 at least 4 times a day.  I inspected after each cleaning to make sure that there wasn't too much CLP left on the bolt assembly, and Lord help the guy I found with an open ejection port cover.

That being said, IMO the M16 series, including most variants is well over due for replacement.  The 5.56mm is just too small and light a round IMO to be used as a main battle rifle.  Go back to the .30 caliber range.

[Airwolf]

Anything smaller then 6.5mm is a waste of ammo when trying to kill people that won't go down after being shot more then once. I watched "Lock And Load with R. Lee Ermey" this past saturday and they had an episode on Ammuniton. You should see what a 7.62 mm round will do to a side of standing pot roast.  
 

[Zathras]

Amen to that.  Some of the sand over there is like baby powder and CLP draws it like a magnet.  When I was in the sand box 90-91, I made my troops clean their M16 at least 4 times a day.  I inspected after each cleaning to make sure that there wasn't too much CLP left on the bolt assembly, and Lord help the guy I found with an open ejection port cover.

That being said, IMO the M16 series, including most variants is well over due for replacement.  The 5.56mm is just too small and light a round IMO to be used as a main battle rifle.  Go back to the .30 caliber range.

I've seen that there's interest in the 6.8mm round for the next rifle.

[Chris_]

I've seen that there's interest in the 6.8mm round for the next rifle.

Ballistically, the M-8 looks like the obvious replacement for the M-16 family of weapons, but I wonder... 

If the M-8 was laid out similar to the M-16/M-4's design in order to allow M-16 trained soldierd to transition to it smoothly, does it pick up some of the same mechanical weaknesses of the M-16 series - the weaknesses that make it prone to jamming - in the process?

[Thor]

Ballistically, the M-8 looks like the obvious replacement for the M-16 family of weapons, but I wonder... 

If the M-8 was laid out similar to the M-16/M-4's design in order to allow M-16 trained soldierd to transition to it smoothly, does it pick up some of the same mechanical weaknesses of the M-16 series - the weaknesses that make it prone to jamming - in the process?

The M-8 is made by H&K, if I recall. My H&K handguns are fairly forgiving, but I haven't dragged them through the sand. Just for curiosity's sake, I let mine go through 300+ rounds before I had to clean it. They jammed up, just like any other dirty weapon. It was less rounds with Wolf Ammo before I had to clean it.

The 5.56 isn't designed to necessarily kill, but more to wound, which is a problem in this war. It's designed to injure an enemy, in hopes that others are taken out of the battle in the effort to save their "buddy". Our current enemy doesn't care about their fellow soldier like we do. I have spoken with some Marines from Iraq (both were infantry) and they had little problems with their M-16s.

This is sad news and we can't get the better weapons out there too soon, IMO.

[asdf2231]

What everybody is overlooking from the story is that in the case of the M4 it wasn't a jamming issue...

"I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

He put 12+ magazines through his weapon and it was too hot for him to handle.

Unless you have somebody standing there with a CO2 fire extinguisher hosing down the metal ANY freaking weapon is going to heat up too damn quick if you do not maintain a sensible rate of fire. 

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

He put 3 cans of ammo through it and it malfunctioned. Were they ripping rounds out without pause? Was it due to a barrel failure?  Did the belt get twisted? Was it maintained well enough? Did it stovepipe? Did the extractor fail? Story doesn't say and the blowjob hack AP reporter trying to jin up a story about how the Army is trying to kill it's own soldiers by screwing them on weapons procurements didn't bother to say.

 Put 600 rounds through an old school M60 without maintaining rate of fire discipline and the barrel would droop like hot taffy. There is not a single weapon on earth that is going to be immune from the effects of heat build up when a ton of lead is going downrange.

The M4 is a comprimise between weight, firepower and durability. There is not a single main battle rifle made that ever worked for crap in the sand. Unless you go back to Mausers and Lebels.  And regardless there isn't a modern weapon made that comes with a "Heat Sink" to dissapate all that warm from the bullets exitting.  The M60E apparantly comes real close, lol.

[NHSparky]

we carried shotguns on the sub, but I only saw them during "repel boarders" drills.

O/T--great story.  Like you, I too had to qualify on everything in the small arms locker (M-16, .45, and shotgun).  Well, we went up to Schofield to do our quals all at once.  You remember how we had to do "combat loading" for the shotgun--drop a shell in the open ejection port and rack the slide up, right?  We got to the shotgun part, and "Meat" (Sonar Tech) put the shell in BACKWARDS, and actually racked the slide with the shell backwards.  He got it in there good, too.  Classic.

[JohnnyReb]

  There is not a single weapon on earth that is going to be immune from the effects of heat build up when a ton of lead is going downrange.

That's true even for just throwing lead up in the air....I've been on a couple of good dove shoots where I would have two 12 ga. shotguns laying on the ground at the same time that were to hot to handle.

Damn I'd like to go on just one more like those...and not get caught.

[dutch508]

After I read the thing (I had to hit the latrine right after I hit "post"), I saw where a fair number of the guys had their M4s on three-shot burst (the article said "full auto") in the firefight.  Understandable.  Also, the article mentioned a M249 that had jammed, and it inferred that the gunner had fired about 650 rounds straight.

I just thought of something--how many shotguns are in a typical squad over there?  Dutch, I presume that you've used one . . .

we had two in my twelve man unit. one was a Rem 870 and the other was a locally procured twelve guage double barrel cut down to almost a pistol...one of my medics carried it...and yes- he called it teh boomstick.

[Wineslob]

What everybody is overlooking from the story is that in the case of the M4 it wasn't a jamming issue...

He put 12+ magazines through his weapon and it was too hot for him to handle.

Unless you have somebody standing there with a CO2 fire extinguisher hosing down the metal ANY freaking weapon is going to heat up too damn quick if you do not maintain a sensible rate of fire. 

He put 3 cans of ammo through it and it malfunctioned. Were they ripping rounds out without pause? Was it due to a barrel failure?  Did the belt get twisted? Was it maintained well enough? Did it stovepipe? Did the extractor fail? Story doesn't say and the blowjob hack AP reporter trying to jin up a story about how the Army is trying to kill it's own soldiers by screwing them on weapons procurements didn't bother to say.

 Put 600 rounds through an old school M60 without maintaining rate of fire discipline and the barrel would droop like hot taffy. There is not a single weapon on earth that is going to be immune from the effects of heat build up when a ton of lead is going downrange.

The M4 is a comprimise between weight, firepower and durability. There is not a single main battle rifle made that ever worked for crap in the sand. Unless you go back to Mausers and Lebels.  And regardless there isn't a modern weapon made that comes with a "Heat Sink" to dissapate all that warm from the bullets exitting.  The M60E apparantly comes real close, lol.

This exactly what I thought when I saw the title. More BS about how our troops are getting "screwed" by the military.
F*cking libtard journalists.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Due to the very solid magazine well, M16-family weapons do not malfunction if you hold onto the mag instead of the forearm.  Sounds like a lot of operator headspace and timing issues going on in that unit.  As soon as I read 'Rifle went down then the machinegun he grabbed failed,' I was thinking this is not really a story about weapons failing, it's a story of deficient training and poor TTP.

[TheSarge]

Due to the very solid magazine well, M16-family weapons do not malfunction if you hold onto the mag instead of the forearm.  Sounds like a lot of operator headspace and timing issues going on in that unit.  As soon as I read 'Rifle went down then the machinegun he grabbed failed,' I was thinking this is not really a story about weapons failing, it's a story of deficient training and poor TTP.

Someone needs to start with the Platoon Sergeant and get the message to the NCO's to get off their ass and make sure their soldiers are cleaning their weapons properly.

[Chris_]

Someone needs to start with the Platoon Sergeant and get the message to the NCO's to get off their ass and make sure their soldiers are cleaning their weapons properly.

I thought it was manditory to clean your weapon more often or maybe I was misinformed

[TheSarge]

I thought it was manditory to clean your weapon more often or maybe I was misinformed

It is.  But IMHO discipline on this is breaking down.  And it's up to the NCO's to restore it.

[Chris_]

It is.  But IMHO discipline on this is breaking down.  And it's up to the NCO's to restore it.

Is it the NCO's who maybe need to go back to their training and instil that on their soldiers more?

[TheSarge]

Is it the NCO's who maybe need to go back to their training and instil that on their soldiers more?

All of them do.

[Chris_]

All of them do.

Then why are mistakes being made do you think?