Author Topic: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind  (Read 8440 times)

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Offline Deuce

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2009, 08:55:10 PM »
Deuce - you are talking about things of which you have no knowledge. Please stop now. You're making yourself look stupid. Stop talking out of emotion, go read the FAWKING BILLS and then comment.

You may think I'm rude - I'm trying to keep you from making yourself look like an idiot.

What have I mentioned, specifically, that is incorrect? Serious question. If I'm misreading something I want to know about it.

Offline Rebel

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2009, 09:01:47 PM »
So if you're all opposing this bill why are people calling me an idiot for opposing this bill?

They call me an idiot all the time. What's your bitch?
NAMBLA is a left-wing organization.

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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline rich_t

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2009, 09:18:44 PM »
They call me an idiot all the time. What's your bitch?

In your case it's only partially true part of the time.

 :tongue:
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline docstew

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2009, 02:56:15 AM »
In your case it's only partially mostly true part of the time.

 :tongue:

FIFY

Offline Carl

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2009, 06:37:51 AM »
Are you people insane?

We're about to provide 35 million+ new customers to insurance companies. They will profit from this. Taxpayer money will even fund a lot of these premiums. "Here's a bunch of tax dollars, but we're going to take some of them back." It doesn't make any sense.

The average customer is profitable for an insurance company. That's how insurance works. The unlucky are subsidized by the lucky. More customers = more profit.

A couple of things here.

First off is that just using your 35 million figure you frame it as all of them landing in one big insurance pool where all the premiums go to one place.
That isn`t how it would be,they will be spread out over hundreds or maybe thousands of companies.
Suddenly the increase in premiums collected against the liabilities of claims paid per company isn`t as lucrative sounding.

Next is the issue that you assume providing subsidized coverage will not encourage use of it.
Right now those of us with insurance are discouraged from using it needlessly by copays and deductibles as well as rates reflecting risk.
Are you going to tell me that a government subsidized policy because a person is too poor to purchase one will still have such checks and balances?

I can hear the outcry now about how the plan the government buys for me wants me to pay 30 dollars that I don`t have as a copay.
It will not work that way and everyone knows it...it will be complete and virtually free coverage to those under a certain income level.
Once again the liability of usage grows greatly.

Now there is the issue of human nature.
I am employed and part of that is a health insurance benefit that I pay a portion of.
How many employees and employers will opt out and selectively reduce income received or paid so one can qualify for a subsidized plan?
No one can answer that but the law of unintended consequences is seldom beneficial in my observation of things through life.

The mistake a liberal always makes is they don`t think things through based on observations of reality and history.
I don`t mean that as an insult either,simply a reflection here on your statements that presume you can radically alter the workings of this industry and the results will only be as you wish them to be despite all evidence showing the opposite will likely be the outcome.

That conclusion is based on the current government involved health care programs.
Medicare is a transfer program and is still going broke.
State plans that have been designed for low income or poor have bankrupted them and or the counties that have to support them.

Will there be a penalty for taking a sniffling child to an ER simply because it is more convenient then getting an appointment in a clinic or private practice?
Doubtful so why the presumption that will change by insuring everyone?

What will be needed as a reserve pool an insurance company has to hold to meet potential liabilities and where will that come from except for increasing rates until a balance is discovered between new customers and increased claims?

On and on it goes with hundreds of more questions that real life poses.

Offline bkg

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2009, 09:26:35 AM »
What have I mentioned, specifically, that is incorrect? Serious question. If I'm misreading something I want to know about it.

Have you read HR3200 yet?

I'll help you out here. HR3200 makes ZERO mention of any subsidies being provided to insurance companyes by covering the "uninsured." And please, double check your numbers - you're including illegal aliens.

HR3200 also makes it virtually impossible for insurnace companies to survive 2 years post implementation by preventing the writing of any new policy. There is no new money going to insurance companies and no new customers. The uninsured, and indeed upwards of 90M of the already insured, will be on the gov't program.. run by whom? I'll help yet again. THE FAWKING GOVERNMENT.

Now... go read the bill before making any other rediculous comments. And note - the "other" bills are not published for public consumption, so relying on what Congress is saying will be in the bill is unacceptable in this conversation, because they lied about what was in HR3200 as well.

So run along... you have about 1000 pages of HR3200 to read.

Offline Freeper

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2009, 09:52:39 AM »
This is such a great idea.  :whatever: Start off by forcing insurance companies to cover those who will cost the companies a ton of money. Then raise taxes on top of that. The evil insurance companies then will be forced to raise premiums until no one can afford them. Then the 80+ percentage of those happy with what they have now will be crying for a public option because that will be all they can afford.
Obama and the gang are trying like hell to push us into not only accepting but, wanting the public option.


I may not lock my doors while sitting at a red light and a black man is near, but I sure as hell grab on tight to my wallet when any democrats are close by.

Offline Peter3_1

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2009, 03:16:32 PM »
Then, there is the barter scociety and the underground economy. Better to deal in cash than earn money on the books that would push you into a higher (reduced subcity) bracket.

The matter also exists of the general subsity of the proposed insurance. The ANNUAL premiums quoted in the tables are LESS than the MONTHLY premiums here in NYS ! Who makes up the differences?

And then there is the matter of the charges made for Hospital, Diagnostics, Nursing, Doctors, Rehabilitation professionals, ambulance services, nursing homes, clinics, malpractice expenses.......how can one do as is stated WITHOUT drawingdown of fees? Well? And if your EXPENSES don't go down but your FEES are determined by gvt decree and prove to be inadequate for your needs, what do you do?

Find a different profession, move to a climate where your needs will be met, simply put, leave the USA. Then , who treats you, the Vetinerian?


t

Offline Deuce

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2009, 06:36:19 PM »
Stuff about HR3200

Nearly every claim you just made about Hr3200 is wrong by my reading. If you have a specific clause that refutes what I say here, please point me to it. The bill is in nice easy sections, so just give me the section I'm missing or misreading.

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Have you read HR3200 yet?

Yep. Weeks ago.

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HR3200 makes ZERO mention of any subsidies being provided
Section 242 describes individuals qualified for individual affordability credits. These credits can be applied to any plan on the insurance exchange, which would include private plans as well as the public option. These are subsidies to help pay for premiums... premiums paid to insurance companies.

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HR3200 also makes it virtually impossible for insurnace companies to survive 2 years post implementation by preventing the writing of any new policy. There is no new money going to insurance companies and no new customers.

This is not correct. Writing a new policy that does not meet the defined acceptable standards is barred.

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Section 101 b) Requirements for Qualified Health Benefits Plans- On or after the first day of Y1, a health benefits plan shall not be a qualified health benefits plan under this division unless the plan meets the applicable requirements of the following subtitles for the type of plan and plan year involved:

Next up:
The already insured!
The public option is only available via the health insurance exchange. Period. So who's eligible for the exchange?

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(a) Access to Coverage- In accordance with this section, all individuals are eligible to obtain coverage through enrollment in an Exchange-participating health benefits plan offered through the Health Insurance Exchange unless such individuals are enrolled in another qualified health benefits plan or other acceptable coverage.

If you already enrolled in a qualified employer insurance plan you are literally not eligible for the exchange and therefore not eligible for the public option.

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1) IN GENERAL- The Secretary shall establish geographically-adjusted premium rates for the public health insurance option in a manner
      (A) that complies with the premium rules established by the Commissioner under section 113 for Exchange-participating health benefit plans; and

      (B) at a level sufficient to fully finance the costs of

            (i) health benefits provided by the public health insurance option; and

           
            (ii) administrative costs related to operating the public health insurance option.

Huh. It has to fund itself via premiums entirely. That part is news to me.


Anything else you think I'm making mistakes on?

Offline Carl

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2009, 07:01:36 PM »
Whoopsy..no free ride.

Offline Deuce

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2009, 07:26:50 PM »
Whoopsy..no free ride.

Right. I was previously under the impression that it would make up any losses via taxpayer support. It sounds like it will basically behave like any other insurance company except for being run by government bureaucrats.

Offline docstew

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2009, 10:58:57 PM »
Here's a quote from HR3200 you didn't mention: "The tax imposed under this legislation shall not be considered a tax."

They are going to tax us, but not call it a tax, sounds fair, right?

Also, who decides what insurance plans are acceptable?  The government?  How is a private company supposed to offer a fully competing product, in terms of quality and price, when the COMPETITOR for that product can say it's illegal to sell it?

How many businesses will maintain insurance coverage for their employees when they will have a competitive advantage dropping coverage and letting the taxpayers subsidize it rather than premiums coming from their own revenue stream?

Yes, you quote the bill, but you refuse to follow it's provisions through to their logical end.  That pattern is typical of a liberal.

Offline Deuce

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2009, 08:16:38 AM »
Here's a quote from HR3200 you didn't mention: "The tax imposed under this legislation shall not be considered a tax."

They are going to tax us, but not call it a tax, sounds fair, right?

Also, who decides what insurance plans are acceptable?  The government?  How is a private company supposed to offer a fully competing product, in terms of quality and price, when the COMPETITOR for that product can say it's illegal to sell it?

How many businesses will maintain insurance coverage for their employees when they will have a competitive advantage dropping coverage and letting the taxpayers subsidize it rather than premiums coming from their own revenue stream?

Yes, you quote the bill, but you refuse to follow it's provisions through to their logical end.  That pattern is typical of a liberal.

You quote the bill, but fail to quote the rest of the sentence.
"The tax imposed under this legislation shall not be considered a tax, for the purposes of determining the amount of any credit under this part.

Changes the meaning rather significantly doesn't it?

The government does decide what the "acceptable standards" are, by placing caps on premiums and co-pays, and requiring certain things to be covered. (like ER visits or pregnancy) However, the public option would have to meet the same standards.

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2) ENSURING A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD- Consistent with this subtitle, the public health insurance option shall comply with requirements that are applicable under this title to an Exchange-participating health benefits plan, including requirements related to benefits, benefit levels, provider networks, notices, consumer protections, and cost sharing.

If a $20,000 deductible is illegal for Aetna it's illegal for the public option.

Businesses larger than a certain number of employees will be required to offer insurance, so they can't drop coverage without taking a payroll tax penalty. That tax would pay for those subsidies.

You quote the bill even though you obviously have not read it.

I oppose HR3200.

Offline bkg

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2009, 09:22:45 AM »
Deuce - I've decided you're not worth arguing with. You have your opinions that are made up by liberal talking points and seem to lack the critical though to recognize that past behavior will dictate future behavior; gov't healthcare will NOT help prices, the free market, quality... But you continue to go on believing what you need to apease your anger against the free market.

Offline thundley4

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2009, 09:23:36 AM »
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The government does decide what the "acceptable standards" are, by placing caps on premiums and co-pays, and requiring certain things to be covered. (like ER visits or pregnancy) However, the public option would have to meet the same standards.

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If a $20,000 deductible is illegal for Aetna it's illegal for the public option.

Businesses larger than a certain number of employees will be required to offer insurance, so they can't drop coverage without taking a payroll tax penalty. That tax would pay for those subsidies.

There is nothing in the bill that says the public option will be the standards for private companies.  In fact the government can require higher and more coverage from private companies, but that force them to lose money, because they have caps on premiums/deductibles/co-pays.

It's also been pointed out the the payroll tax penalty will be lower than what most companies are paying for employee insurance, which is another reason for employers to boot their workers to the PO.

It must suck to have read the bill and understand so little of it, but not read what others that have read and UNDERSTAND the bill think of it.


Deuce - I've decided you're not worth arguing with. You have your opinions that are made up by liberal talking points and seem to lack the critical though to recognize that past behavior will dictate future behavior; gov't healthcare will NOT help prices, the free market, quality... But you continue to go on believing what you need to apease your anger against the free market.

I think you're right.


Offline rich_t

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2009, 04:42:00 PM »
Deuce - I've decided you're not worth arguing with. You have your opinions that are made up by liberal talking points and seem to lack the critical though to recognize that past behavior will dictate future behavior; gov't healthcare will NOT help prices, the free market, quality... But you continue to go on believing what you need to apease your anger against the free market.

Bingo.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Deuce

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2009, 09:33:48 PM »
Deuce - I've decided you're not worth arguing with. You have your opinions that are made up by liberal talking points and seem to lack the critical though to recognize that past behavior will dictate future behavior; gov't healthcare will NOT help prices, the free market, quality... But you continue to go on believing what you need to apease your anger against the free market.


I don't think government healthcare will help things. Nor do I think forcing people to buy insurance they can't afford will help things. I oppose HR3200. How many times do I have to explain that? I am categorically against being forced to buy health insurance that may or may not be worthwhile or even affordable. I fall right into the income level where a mandate could push my teetering finances over the edge but I don't receive any subsidies.

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There is nothing in the bill that says the public option will be the standards for private companies.  In fact the government can require higher and more coverage from private companies, but that force them to lose money, because they have caps on premiums/deductibles/co-pays.

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2) ENSURING A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD- Consistent with this subtitle, the public health insurance option shall comply with requirements that are applicable under this title to an Exchange-participating health benefits plan, including requirements related to benefits, benefit levels, provider networks, notices, consumer protections, and cost sharing.

Exchange eligible plans must meet the acceptable standards defined by this bill. The public option must meet exchange eligibility. Therefore, the public option must meet the acceptable standards defined by this bill.

8% of payroll is nothing to sneeze at for a penalty for not offering insurance, but you're right, some companies will likely drop coverage and just pay the tax, mine included.

It's another reason I've been emailing my representatives and explaining why they should vote against this bill.

Offline TheSarge

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2009, 09:39:55 PM »

I don't think government healthcare will help things. Nor do I think forcing people to buy insurance they can't afford will help things. I oppose HR3200. How many times do I have to explain that? I am categorically against being forced to buy health insurance that may or may not be worthwhile or even affordable. I fall right into the income level where a mandate could push my teetering finances over the edge but I don't receive any subsidies.

Yet in another thread you don't understand why people should have to pay for plastic surgery. 

Does your left hand not know what your right hand is typing?

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Exchange eligible plans must meet the acceptable standards defined by this bill. The public option must meet exchange eligibility. Therefore, the public option must meet the acceptable standards defined by this bill.

And what will those standards be exactly?  There are sections of this train wreck that aren't even written in the specific language that end up screwing everyone. 

The standards have yet to be set but somehow we're supposed believe that what they are selling us is a GOOD thing?

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8% of payroll is nothing to sneeze at for a penalty for not offering insurance, but you're right, some companies will likely drop coverage and just pay the tax, mine included.

And in turn force the insurance companies OUT of business which will leave people with no other option BUT the Government one.

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It's another reason I've been emailing my representatives and explaining why they should vote against this bill.
:whatever:
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Offline Deuce

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2009, 10:05:06 AM »
Yet in another thread you don't understand why people should have to pay for plastic surgery. 

No, in another thread you completely misunderstood what I was typing.


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And what will those standards be exactly?  There are sections of this train wreck that aren't even written in the specific language that end up screwing everyone. 
The standards have yet to be set but somehow we're supposed believe that what they are selling us is a GOOD thing?

Pre-existing condition exclusions banned, age/location/family the only variations allowed for premiums, section 122 defines the "essential benefits package" and the cost-sharing and actuarial value requirements. Requirements for "basic," "enhanced," and "premium" benefits packages defined.

You're right, the law as written does leave a lot of power to change things in the hand of the Administrator, but there's quite a bit already defined to give you an idea of what would happen at least.


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And in turn force the insurance companies OUT of business which will leave people with no other option BUT the Government one.

People dropped from their employer plan will still have to buy insurance. If it happened to you, would you pick the public option or a private plan?

Offline docstew

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2009, 10:32:44 AM »
No, in another thread you completely misunderstood what I was typing.


Pre-existing condition exclusions banned, age/location/family the only variations allowed for premiums, section 122 defines the "essential benefits package" and the cost-sharing and actuarial value requirements. Requirements for "basic," "enhanced," and "premium" benefits packages defined.

You're right, the law as written does leave a lot of power to change things in the hand of the Administrator, but there's quite a bit already defined to give you an idea of what would happen at least.


People dropped from their employer plan will still have to buy insurance. If it happened to you, would you pick the public option or a private plan?

What if you couldn't get a private plan, at any price, because the insurance companies wouldn't be allowed to write new policies?  Read the bill, that's in there too.  Where do you go then, right into the public option, like they planned all along.  As more and more companies drop their coverages due to higher and higher premiums from insurers trying to stay afloat against a competitor subsidized by taxpayer money, the speed of enrollment in the PO gets faster and faster.  Once one of the big insurers, i.e. BCBS, goes belly up, everyone will be on the PO, and they will have what they wanted, single payer.  At that point, they may not own your soul or (all of your) labor, but they do own your body, and can and will decide when you've served your purpose and are no longer worth the effort to keep alive.

Offline Peter3_1

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Re: House Dems looking at "windfall profits tax" 4 insurance ind
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2009, 01:49:50 PM »
Why are we discussing thte matter of the number of angles who can dance on the head of a pin?

BETTER HEALTH CARE IS NOT, THAT'S NOT, AGAIN NOT what is going on. What is going on it an attempt to extend government control over the indivigual WAY WAY WAY past Constitutional limits!  i CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY anyone with the goal of better quality health care with a b roader base would subscribe to this covernmental attempt to extort money and compliance in an area that is none of their constitutional business.  Fact is, except those who think serfdom is superior to freedom would go for this pile of stench.


There are ways the feds could help make health care better, more available and less expensive, but none are under consideration by the Congress.