Author Topic: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases  (Read 10263 times)

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Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2009, 09:22:39 PM »
Which, IMHO, violates the 2nd.

It does IMO also.

But then, unlike deuce, I know the meaning of the word "right" as used in the context of the 2nd Amendment.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2009, 09:26:47 PM »
It does IMO also.

But then, unlike deuce, I know the meaning of the word "right" as used in the context of the 2nd Amendment.

I would suspect that Duece believes it's his right to feel safe... and that he doesn't feel safe knowing someone has a weapon he doesn't approve of.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2009, 09:33:06 PM »
I would suspect that Duece believes it's his right to feel safe... and that he doesn't feel safe knowing someone has a weapon he doesn't approve of.

The safest place that deuce will ever be is in a place where he is surrounded by US citizens armed with guns.

When was the last time you ever heard of an attack at a gun show?

 :cheersmate:
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2009, 09:36:23 PM »
The safest place that deuce will ever be is in a place where he is surrounded by US citizens armed with guns.

When was the last time you ever heard of an attack at a gun show?

 :cheersmate:

an armed society is a polite society.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2009, 09:40:42 PM »
an armed society is a polite society.

So it is said.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Deuce

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2009, 08:40:18 AM »
Once again I'm getting screamed at for a slight difference of opinion. I've tried to be polite, but you guys seem unable to do the same.

Nuclear ICBM guy at customs? In a "true 2nd" society, nobody would do anything because he has a right to carry that weapon around in his truck, right? Shooting him would be a crime because he hasn't done anything wrong. OR, someone pulls a gun and tries to stop him, he detonates the weapon and kills a few hundred thousand travelers and citizens.

Holes in the cabin WILL cause a pressurization leak. It's simple physics. What they will not cause is explosive decompression like you see in the movies, that's what mythbusters was getting at. Depressurization is still a danger to the passengers. A small caliber handgun might not penetrate the skin easily, but any rifle could easily go through.

An armed society is a polite society, but some scenarios would allow for one nutjob to cause catastrophic damage. If we can carry guns on a plane, how about explosives? Is C4 covered under the 2nd? One button push and the plane comes down to earth in pieces. Or maybe a tourist has it in his pack when given a tour of a nuclear power plant.

Some weapons people can't protect themselves from no matter how well armed the society is. If every man, woman, and child carried an AR-15, I could still take out dozens if not hundreds of people at a football game with explosives in my beer cooler.


Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2009, 08:43:29 AM »
Once again I'm getting screamed at for a slight difference of opinion. I've tried to be polite, but you guys seem unable to do the same.

You wanna try this again? I've been incredibly polite. I resent your insinuation, actually. No one is screaming at you, so please stop with the Rules for Radicals debate model.

Offline Deuce

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2009, 09:00:19 AM »
You wanna try this again? I've been incredibly polite. I resent your insinuation, actually. No one is screaming at you, so please stop with the Rules for Radicals debate model.

Dutch508:
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you are one stupid mother ****er.

DefiantSix:
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The point, dipstick,

Dutch508:
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Shit, can you not read what I wrote?

Dutch508:
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Damm I HATE stupid assed retards.

Dutch508:
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Thats because you are a stupid dumb-assed mother ****er.

NHSparky:
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God, what an asshat.

Dutch508:
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what a ******* retard.

rich_t
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Then you have no ******* idea of what a RIGHT is.

Dutch508:
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dumb ass.

bkg, you in particular have been very polite and well-reasoned. You've given me a few interesting points to think about. (about the TSA in particular)

Clearly much of the flames are originating from one poster, but there's been a pretty consistent trend with this thread.

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2009, 09:09:00 AM »
So ignore it and step up. It's the intertoobs - people are passionate, knowledgeable, interested in discussion. But also play by the rules you want others to be managed under. You've also lashed out in some forms after asking for a polite conversation, so I'm not sure you can necessarily hold others accountable if you're not also going to call yourself out, ya know?

You and I do disagree. No doubt about that. The problem with your position is that you move the goal post (your analogy). And when YOU move it, then someone else who is slightly more nervous about guns than you may want to move it slightly more. And because you've set the precidence, there is nothing to stop them from moving that post using the same arguments that you have. So if you're unable to put a stake in the ground and say "a right is a right. period." then you must accept the consequences that while you've moved the goal an inch, someone else will move it a mile using your exact same argument. Where are you willing to let it go?

Offline dutch508

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2009, 09:10:12 AM »
NEVER attempt to put me into the nice person catagory- **** head.
The torch of moral clarity since 12/18/07

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Offline Chump

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2009, 09:12:10 AM »
If I might chime in, Deuce, I think you're making several logical mistakes here.

1.)  You argue from the extreme at nearly every turn.  A nuclear-tipped ICBM being carried into the U.S. on some rich Saudi's private plane is not a scenario from which we should begin, agreed?  Even with all the "nuances" involved in such a hypothetical situation, it's a moot point.  Said Saudi has no rights outlined in the Constitution.  None.  But even beyond the absurdist view, we can't find common ground if your immediate response is to think of the most unlikely and objectionable scenario possible.  Keep it grounded in reality, like your explosives in the beer cooler example.

2.)  You're confusing issues.  When I get on a plane, I've entered into a contract for services with the airline.  If one of the airline's conditions for traveling on their craft is that no passenger may carry a weapon on his or her person, I can either comply with that condition or I can find another mode of travel.  It's entirely my choice.  Where my objection comes into play is when the TSA, a federal agency, makes that condition.  The government's ability to infringe on my right to bear arms is explicitly denied by the Constitution, regardless of the current situation.  In short, the TSA's regulation of air travel in this way is unconstitutional, by definition.

3.)  The rest of your scenarios are faulty simply because regulating gun rights does nothing to provide a solution.  A man carries explosives in his beer cooler?  Surely someone so unstable can and will do so with or without a government ban on private ownership of AR-15s, no?  A man takes a hunting rifle and shoots up a mall?  Same thing.

To summarize, you seem to only support gun rights within reason.  The problem with that outlook is two-fold:

1.)  Who's reason is paramount?  The supporters of the Brady Bill?  Members of a Michigan militia?  Obama's?  The NRA's?

2.)  The Founding Fathers made no such distinction.  They simply said the Second Amendment was necessary to the security of Free State.  They fully expected citizens to be armed with the latest technology, as they all had been.

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech

Offline thundley4

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2009, 09:16:02 AM »
Quote
2.)  The Founding Fathers made no such distinction.  They simply said the Second Amendment was necessary to the security of Free State.  They fully expected citizens to be armed with the latest technology, as they all had been.

I want a laser blaster from Star Wars !  Maybe I should work on building one. They haven't been outlawed in Illinois, yet.

Offline Chump

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2009, 09:16:42 AM »
So if you're unable to put a stake in the ground and say "a right is a right. period." then you must accept the consequences that while you've moved the goal an inch, someone else will move it a mile using your exact same argument. Where are you willing to let it go?

Well said, sir.  Freedoms and rights don't disappear in the middle of the night.  They're infringed upon steadily, with hundreds of attacks over the course of time, until we wake up and find they're all but gone.

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech

Offline Chump

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2009, 09:17:38 AM »
I want a laser blaster from Star Wars !  Maybe I should work on building one. They haven't been outlawed in Illinois, yet.

More power to ya.  If you can get it produced for less than several billion, maybe we can work out a deal!
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech

Offline Thor

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2009, 09:50:43 AM »
Quite honestly, I believe that ANYBODY with a permit to carry or CCW in some states should be able to carry on ANY aircraft. I WOULD like for them to have the appropriate load/ bullet for an aircraft. To reinforce Deuce's comment about decompression, a bullet WILL cause decompression, just not explosive decompression. Either way, that aircraft would have to descend below 12,000 ft to be safe and avoid hypoxia. Such a maneuver could be dangerous, depending on the situation. And furthermore, I would draw the line at nukes. Anything else below the nuclear capability level should be ok to own or possess. Tanks, grenades, stingers, SAMs, etc, should ALL be allowed to the average law abiding citizen. What I would like to see is that if ANYBODY committed a crime with said weapons is an instant death penalty. The only "crime" that would be excluded would be a crime* committed against the Government during a rebellion.



*While our founders intended the Government to be reigned in by us citizens through rebellion, they have made it a crime to overthrow the Government. Isn't that contrary to the Constitution ??
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

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Offline Chump

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2009, 09:54:20 AM »
*While our founders intended the Government to be reigned in by us citizens through rebellion, they have made it a crime to overthrow the Government. Isn't that contrary to the Constitution ??

Perhaps, if government becomes tyranny, the Constitution as the reigning legal document is out the window.  The Founders allowed for the possibility of rebellion as recourse, but after that, all bets are off.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2009, 09:54:40 AM »
*While our founders intended the Government to be reigned in by us citizens through rebellion, they have made it a crime to overthrow the Government. Isn't that contrary to the Constitution ??

Answer = yes

Offline Chris_

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2009, 10:12:42 AM »
*While our founders intended the Government to be reigned in by us citizens through rebellion, they have made it a crime to overthrow the Government. Isn't that contrary to the Constitution ??

The founders also established that the highest level of government under their system was the INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN.  They are the level of government to which all others are answerable.  Therefore if the bureaucratic construction at the federal level is operating in violation of it's mandated limits - enumerated specifically in the US Constitution - then the higher level authority - the citizenry at large (militia, in the vocabulary of the founders) - has an obligation to remove the offending body by whatever means are required and restore the individual liberties being usurped.
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Offline Thor

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2009, 03:23:37 PM »
The founders also established that the highest level of government under their system was the INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN.  They are the level of government to which all others are answerable.  Therefore if the bureaucratic construction at the federal level is operating in violation of it's mandated limits - enumerated specifically in the US Constitution - then the higher level authority - the citizenry at large (militia, in the vocabulary of the founders) - has an obligation to remove the offending body by whatever means are required and restore the individual liberties being usurped.

However, should a citizen or a group of citizens attempt to do that, they would be in violation of the law. I don't know who wrote and passed that law or when it happened. Besides, I only know of a very small few ready to throw out these usurpers.

Quote
Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or
teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of
overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or
the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession
thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by
force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any
such government; or
Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any
such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates,
sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed
matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity,
desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any
government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts
to do so; or
Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society,
group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the
overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or
violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any
such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes
thereof -

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/115/2385


All in all, that entire law violates not only the First Amendment, but the entire concept of the founding fathers. It appears that this law was passed sometime around 1940....... go figure....

Quote
The Smith Act was a product of America's prewar anxieties. Proposed by Representative Howard W. Smith of Virginia, the measure was one of several antisubversive bills introduced in Congress during 1939. A modified version was adopted by both houses on 22 June 1940, as Title I of the Alien Registration Act.

http://www.answers.com/topic/smith-act
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2009, 03:48:59 PM »
I think we're more in agreement here than it appears, Thor. 

What you've got is US Code Title 18, aka the Federal law defining and setting penalty for treason, something already defined explicitly in the US Constitution.  Even though this is wishful thinking these days, the US Constitution has to trump federal law, because the federal law would have no binding authority without the US Constitution. 

That the Title 18 version of Treason includes a whole bunch of things in it's definition which were explicitly forbidden by the founders only reinforces the fact that it is a bureaucratic construct - aborted onto the law books by another Progressive closet Marxist - that can and should be swept aside by the superior governing authority in this land; the citizen-at-large militia.  Yes, the elected officers and their bureaucrats in the federal government are gonna scream and cry and call us traitors when the time comes to forcibly punt them from the people's offices.  I expect nothing less from them.  The volume with which they call us traitors will not make it any more true, however.

I understand a whole lot of government officials called my forefathers 'traitor' some 235 odd years ago, as well. It's just words.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Thor

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2009, 04:47:48 PM »
I wonder what Judge Andrew Napolitano would say about Title 18 ??
"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."- IBID

I AM your General Ne'er Do Well, Troublemaker & All Around Meanie!!

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."-Thomas Jefferson