Author Topic: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases  (Read 14312 times)

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Offline Deuce

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2009, 10:52:11 PM »
Ok. So you do support private owning of nuclear weaponry. Got it. Thanks.

We must then agree to disagree, I guess.

Offline dutch508

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2009, 09:25:07 AM »
Ok. So you do support private owning of nuclear weaponry. Got it. Thanks.

We must then agree to disagree, I guess.

Thats because you are a stupid dumb-assed mother ****er.
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2009, 11:02:06 AM »
Ok. So you do support private owning of nuclear weaponry. Got it. Thanks.

We must then agree to disagree, I guess.

Yeah, cause I've got a few billion burning a hole in my pocket and a big hole on the back of my property that'll fit a Minuteman III just ****ing perfectly.

God, what an asshat.  Take the extreme (absurdist) view and apply to all situations.  It's all you know.
“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian.”  -Henry Ford

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2009, 06:51:34 PM »
Ok. So you do support private owning of nuclear weaponry. Got it. Thanks.

We must then agree to disagree, I guess.

You and I are going to disagree on a LOT of things... Public Health care, 2nd amendment... hmmm.. are you sure you're on the right forum?

Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2009, 07:06:24 PM »
You and I are going to disagree on a LOT of things... Public Health care, 2nd amendment... hmmm.. are you sure you're on the right forum?

Every forum needs a few chew toys.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Deuce

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2009, 08:14:25 PM »
Did I say that I supported gun bans? No, I didn't. But you guys have just said NO YOU SHALL NOT INFRINGE UPON MY RIGHTS AT ALL!

I don't support private ownership of ICBMs. Sure, you can't afford one anyway, but what about that middle-eastern oil tycoon? He's got the cash handy, and he's got some very passionately speaking friends.

You guys jump to way too many conclusions.

FOR THE RECORD:

I think a firearms ban is unconstitutional, not to mention irrational. The cities with total bans on handguns have some of the highest crime/murder rates. Most crimes committed with guns are committed with stolen guns, and criminals don't care in the least whether they are legally allowed to have that gun! As they say, if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. Bans don't work and we shouldn't have them anyway. Even the assault weapons bans don't really make sense, because legally owned "assault weapons" are pretty much never used in crimes. You don't rob a bank with an AR-15. (or as the media calls it, A FULLY AUTOMATIC MACHINE GUN OF BABY KILLING)

But no, I don't support your right to own an anti-aircraft missile. I fly planes for a living and would really prefer those not be around at all. I do draw a line somewhere.

Stop making assumptions about my political beliefs. I'm not a communist just because I'm slightly less to the right than you guys are. My "public healthcare" support was for a pretty ideal-world-version totally different than what the democrats want. You're even contradicting yourselves on the 2nd amendment. NO WEAPONS should be banned, but owning nuclear weapons legally is an "absurdist" scenario?

I understand the 2nd amendment completely. I just choose to believe that there are limits to the amount of firepower the people should possess.

But lets throw the ball back to you guys' court. Why are handguns banned from airline flights? Should they be? Why or why not?

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2009, 08:24:33 PM »
You realize that the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to a mid-easter oil tycoon..... right? So why bring it up?

And I'm glad to know you don't support gun bans, but your position, in and of itself, by definition, is supporting banning of guns/weapons that you are not comfortable with. Isn't that a contradiction of sorts?

Yes. Guns SHOULD be allowed on planes. Had they been, 9/11 may have been avoided. Guns should be allowed everywhere, IMHO. I have no issues with owning/carrying anything. Use it to infringe on someone elses rights in any way and we're going to have a major problem however.

And I know that will result in the "what about schools?" or "what about hospitals?" or "what about (insert emotinoally-driven location here)???" type of knee jerk reactions form many people. I'm kind of black and white on this one, I admit... the 2nd guarantees our RIGHT to bear arms "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED," IIRC... so isn't your position, however logical and common sensical you find it, technically a violation of the 2nd?

Offline dutch508

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2009, 08:28:10 PM »
what a ****ing retard.

When was the last 'middle-eastern oil tycoon' arrested for a weapons charge in teh USA?


Hmmm?   waiting....waiting....waiting....


dumb ass.  :bird:
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2009, 08:37:16 PM »
I don't support private ownership of ICBMs. Sure, you can't afford one anyway, but what about that middle-eastern oil tycoon? He's got the cash handy, and he's got some very passionately speaking friends.

Your middle eastern oil tycoon isn't an American citizen, and therefore has the laws of his own country by which he has chosen to live.  He has no rights insofar as the US Constitution is concerned.  He cannot buy up an ICBM, and when his sheik comes for his head, tell him that the US Constitution gives him a right to keep and bear any weapon of his choosing.

By the way, you are aware that private ownership of ICBMs is not all that uncommon a thing, aren't you?  There is a firm out of California, for example, which bought up a whole mess of former Soviet SS-18 boosters with the intention of using them as launch vehicles for satellites.  ICBMs, Sr. Deuce.  In private hands, Sr. Deuce.  

Are you sure you don't want to re-think your position, Sr. Deuce?

edited to add:  By the way, Sr, Deuce, you are aware that in most respects, what you refer to casually as an "anti-aircraft missile" is nearly indistinguishable from a scientific sounding rocket, aren't you?  Back in the 1950s and 60s, the Nike series of AA missiles was first established as a series of high altitude scientific research vehicles before it was militarized?  Back when I was doing time at the U of Washington - in the early 90s - we had an Engineering lab that kicked out 3-4 high altitude research rockets a month; they looked uncannily like the US Navy's SM-2 'Standard' Anti-Aircraft missile.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:51:29 PM by DefiantSix »
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Offline Deuce

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2009, 08:44:28 PM »
It was a theoretical scenario. The oil tycoon would in fact be subject to the second amendment if he moved here.

I referred specifically to nuclear-tipped ICBMS. You know, the ones with the 500kt MIRV warheads. Obviously I wasn't referring to converting weapons into non-weapon uses.

As I mentioned, I fly planes for a living. No, you can't have guns on my plane.

Why? If even one passenger went bonkers and decided to shoot at the cockpit, he might take me and my copilot out before passengers are able to take him down. Now you're all probably going to die. Even if he misses, bulletholes will cause the cabin to depressurize and endanger everyone on board, or if key systems are hit we all go down in flames.

You can't say 9/11 would have been prevented if the passengers were armed. What if the terrorists were better armed? If five passengers have guns, but there are seven terrorists with better guns, it's not going to help. 9/11 may have been thwarted, or it may have happened twenty years earlier. It's all speculation.

I get it now. You guys support all weapons being legal in all situations. I support most weapons being legal in most situations. It's a difference of opinion and I think we can all be civil about it.

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2009, 08:49:10 PM »
How was it theoretical? You were talking about limiting the 2nd and then used an example that doesn't even apply.
Do you honestly think that said tycoon is going to get the warhead through customs?

Is it your plan or your employers?

I dind't say 9/11 WOULD have been prevented, did I? Nope - just checked. Your position of "you shouldn't have guns because the mean people will just have bigger guns" is weak and illogical.

I support the 2nd. You say you do as well, but then your entire argument is about limiting the 2nd. How does that compute?

Offline Deuce

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2009, 08:56:31 PM »
Customs would not confiscate the weapon if it were legal. Or maybe the theoretical immigrating oil tycoon would just buy it here at Nuke-Mart, inc.

Fine, I guess I don't support the 2nd amendment. I'll retract that and state that I support gun ownership rights but do not support missile ownership rights.

That a better explanation of my views?

edit: And the reason it "computes" for me is that I don't see limiting where you carry a weapon to be an infringement of your rights. You can choose not to fly on an airliner if you want to hang onto your gun. Or you can just check it with your luggage and not have it in the cabin. It's your choice to give it up temporarily for the safety of travel.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 09:00:56 PM by Deuce »

Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2009, 09:00:27 PM »
You realize that the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to a mid-easter oil tycoon..... right? So why bring it up?

And I'm glad to know you don't support gun bans, but your position, in and of itself, by definition, is supporting banning of guns/weapons that you are not comfortable with. Isn't that a contradiction of sorts?

Yes. Guns SHOULD be allowed on planes. Had they been, 9/11 may have been avoided. Guns should be allowed everywhere, IMHO. I have no issues with owning/carrying anything. Use it to infringe on someone elses rights in any way and we're going to have a major problem however.

And I know that will result in the "what about schools?" or "what about hospitals?" or "what about (insert emotinoally-driven location here)???" type of knee jerk reactions form many people. I'm kind of black and white on this one, I admit... the 2nd guarantees our RIGHT to bear arms "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED," IIRC... so isn't your position, however logical and common sensical you find it, technically a violation of the 2nd?

The poster in question claims to understand the 2nd Amendment.  But he totally misses the point on the "keep and bear part of it.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2009, 09:01:40 PM »
Ummm... Customs will confiscate a lot of things... legal or not... if they want.

You're getting pissy. That tells me that you don't really have a logical foundation for your position; just emotional. You asked to have a civil conversation, so maybe play by your own rules?

So do you support CCW? Do you support CCW everywhere? What other limitations would you like to see on ownership/carry/usage?

Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2009, 09:04:41 PM »
Quote
Even if he misses, bulletholes will cause the cabin to depressurize

It will?

Feel free to prove it.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline dutch508

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2009, 09:05:37 PM »
It will?

Feel free to prove it.

BIG OLD MYTH BUSTERS SPECIAL ON IT!!!



BUSTED!
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2009, 09:06:39 PM »
Quote
edit: And the reason it "computes" for me is that I don't see limiting where you carry a weapon to be an infringement of your rights.

Then you have no ****ing idea of what a RIGHT is.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline dutch508

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2009, 09:08:08 PM »
Customs would not confiscate the weapon if it were legal. Or maybe the theoretical immigrating oil tycoon would just buy it here at Nuke-Mart, inc.

Fine, I guess I don't support the 2nd amendment. I'll retract that and state that I support gun ownership rights but do not support missile ownership rights.

That a better explanation of my views?

edit: And the reason it "computes" for me is that I don't see limiting where you carry a weapon to be an infringement of your rights. You can choose not to fly on an airliner if you want to hang onto your gun. Or you can just check it with your luggage and not have it in the cabin. It's your choice to give it up temporarily for the safety of travel.

So a guy from Abu Daubi with an ICBM on his private plane flies into LAX and tries to declare it. What would happen in a true 2nd Amendment America?

Lets try to keep it theoretical.


dumb ass.

 :bird:
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2009, 09:08:23 PM »
BIG OLD MYTH BUSTERS SPECIAL ON IT!!!



BUSTED!

Exactly.

But facts don't seem to actually matter to some people.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline Chump

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2009, 09:10:13 PM »
 :popcorn:
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.   ~Robert A. Heinlein

...let the cannibal who snarls that the freedom of man's mind was needed to create an industrial civilization, but is not needed to maintain it, be given an arrowhead and bearskin, not a university chair of economics.
~Atlas Shrugged, Galt's speech

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2009, 09:11:51 PM »
edit: And the reason it "computes" for me is that I don't see limiting where you carry a weapon to be an infringement of your rights. You can choose not to fly on an airliner if you want to hang onto your gun. Or you can just check it with your luggage and not have it in the cabin. It's your choice to give it up temporarily for the safety of travel.

Yes/no. If I engage in a private contract with you, knowing that I would not be able to carry, I would have voluntarily surrendured that right as part of the contract. But that would have to be known components of the contract up front.

I could argue, however, using the current Lib model that gov't subsidies = gov't management, that since almost all airlines receive tax breaks and/or subsidies, that the gov't has no right to limit my right to "BEAR" arms, and therefore, it is indeed an infringement upon my right to not be able to carry.

Explain to me how me giving up my right to carry has any impact on safe travel for me or anyone else on the plane.

Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2009, 09:13:16 PM »
BTW...

bkg, change your avatar.  It makes you look like deuce.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2009, 09:14:46 PM »
BTW...

bkg, change your avatar.  It makes you look like deuce.

 :rotf: :rotf:

FIXED!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 09:18:24 PM by bkg »

Offline rich_t

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2009, 09:15:45 PM »
Yes/no. If I engage in a private contract with you, knowing that I would not be able to carry, I would have voluntarily surrendured that right as part of the contract. But that would have to be known components of the contract up front.

I could argue, however, using the current Lib model that gov't subsidies = gov't management, that since almost all airlines receive tax breaks and/or subsidies, that the gov't has no right to limit my right to "BEAR" arms, and therefore, it is indeed an infringement upon my right to not be able to carry.

Explain to me how me giving up my right to carry has any impact on safe travel for me or anyone else on the plane.

You are forgetting one major thing here.

It's not just the airlines that ban guns on flights.  It is now banned by the TSA aka federal government agency.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of 'liberalism,' they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." --Norman Thomas, 1944

Offline bkg

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Re: Supreme Court to hear Chicago gun cases
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2009, 09:19:05 PM »
You are forgetting one major thing here.

It's not just the airlines that ban guns on flights.  It is now banned by the TSA aka federal government agency.

Which, IMHO, violates the 2nd.