Author Topic: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world  (Read 7041 times)

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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2009, 11:47:48 AM »
As was siad before the Pilots do make alot of differance. One thing though is that even the lowly F-5 isn't exactly a dog in A2A combat. TOp GUN and RED FLAG had used the F-5 aircraft for many years and alot of young LT s learned the hard way that the F-5 can ruin your day.

The F-5 and variants actually serve (or did) as front line fighters in a number of nations. I think countries like South Korea, Taiwan, Mexico etc.

The variant used in Mexico is called the Tiger Shark?

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2009, 12:27:58 PM »
The F-5 and variants actually serve (or did) as front line fighters in a number of nations. I think countries like South Korea, Taiwan, Mexico etc.

The variant used in Mexico is called the Tiger Shark?

The F5G Tiger Shark ll was really a pretty bad machine. A cheap hot rod that was short the electronic gadgets of the F15 and F16.

edit to add:
 F5 and F20 history with Peanut brain Carter and dirty politics. Saw some film back in the 80's with retired AF FIL....despite what they say the F20 could hold it's own against anything of it's day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 12:48:07 PM by JohnnyReb »
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2009, 01:40:34 PM »
The F5G Tiger Shark ll was really a pretty bad machine. A cheap hot rod that was short the electronic gadgets of the F15 and F16.

edit to add:
 F5 and F20 history with Peanut brain Carter and dirty politics. Saw some film back in the 80's with retired AF FIL....despite what they say the F20 could hold it's own against anything of it's day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark



Sounds pretty good actually
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 01:46:08 PM by Chris »

Offline Rebel

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Re: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2009, 02:18:27 PM »
We have a wiring schematic of an F-20 framed on the wall in my office. I have no clue why. I'll snap a pic of it tomorrow.
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Offline Airwolf

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Re: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2009, 08:33:15 PM »
For those of us that like to look into what was or may have been or is still secret when it comes to military gear a good site to go to is this one.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php

Some of the posters there have worked in aviation.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2009, 09:21:47 PM »
I agree that the Air Force becomes a little less important when fighting 3rd world countries. But still, if there is a 100 taliban fighters and you only got 20 marines, it's better to hit with them some A10's before going in--just so we wont have even one casualty.

When dealing with countries like north korea and china, air is the first fight. You must clear the air and ground or else.

I get the impression you haven't ever actually been an officer in any branch of service, no disrespect intended. Really, your theoretical 20 Marines make a piss-poor argument for a plane like the Raptor that's so costly you'd have to scrap about a squadron of A-10s to afford to buy each extra F-22, and for a mission that a plane a lot less capable than an A-10 could handle for that matter. 

When you figure out how to get airplanes to hold ground or persuade local chieftains to support you and rat out the insurgents, be sure to let the Air Staff know, they've been desperately and unsuccessfully looking for that strategy since the days of Billy Mitchell.

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On the F5/F20 - great planes, the line led eventually to the Hornet by way of a Northrop project plane based on a beefed-up version of them, so in an indirect way Northrop had the last laugh because the F16 overseas sales never took off the way it was expected they would, but the F-18 did pretty well (The rugged carrier-style landing gear and safety of two engines were big advantages over the Falcon with allied air forces who foresaw operating them in austere conditions).   
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Offline The Village Idiot

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Re: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2009, 09:58:40 PM »
For those of us that like to look into what was or may have been or is still secret when it comes to military gear a good site to go to is this one.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php

Some of the posters there have worked in aviation.

interesting site

Offline Mustang

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Re: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2009, 10:32:01 PM »
I get the impression you haven't ever actually been an officer in any branch of service, no disrespect intended. Really, your theoretical 20 Marines make a piss-poor argument for a plane like the Raptor that's so costly you'd have to scrap about a squadron of A-10s to afford to buy each extra F-22, and for a mission that a plane a lot less capable than an A-10 could handle for that matter.  

When you figure out how to get airplanes to hold ground or persuade local chieftains to support you and rat out the insurgents, be sure to let the Air Staff know, they've been desperately and unsuccessfully looking for that strategy since the days of Billy Mitchell.

You may have taken my statements out of context.

The way I look at the air force is that it is a deterrent towards major military threats like North Korea and China.
With threats like that -our fighter pilots, bombers, and missile defenses become our primary weapon. With ground troops doing the clean up and holding ground.

With an insurgent/urban warfare --the air force takes on a different role which is based mostly on supply lines, surgical air strikes
with Specter Gunships and A10's, and reconassiance with predator drones. It becomes a supportive combat role--but still a very important supportive combat.
I don't think we disagree here.

Even in an urban messy warfare like Iraq, the Air Force has the important role of finding and dismantling I.E.D's. A very dangerous job and #1 most important combat supportive role since I.E.D.'s are the number one killer of U.S. ground troops.

If for some reason an international incident brought China or North Korea to declare war on us, I guarantee we would have been grateful that we bought a few extra hundred more F-22 Raptors. In a war like that, if we could not secure air dominance, we would already lose the war. As powerful as our marines, soldiers, and special forces are--they will be facing a million Asian infantry in each scenario. We can at least do them a favor and bomb the enemy to reduce American casualties.

Our air dominance assures our military safety when we cannot be everywhere at once. Do we really have the time or interest to invade countries like Libya and Somalia? Nope, unless they attacked us, it is just better to just bomb them to the stone age without putting a single trooper on the ground with exception of special forces.

When I say that our Air Force is our smartest and arguably most important branch , that doesn't mean they are our best branch.

And I finally want to add that the Air Force has been saying for years that they do not have enough F-22 Raptors.
Why stop production of them? Why did we stop production of the comanche helicopter?
Are we supposed to shut down programs of buying the most advanced weapons available?
We can buy just a couple at a time, we don't have to shut down buying them all together!

Also want to add that I was willing to join the air force as either a commissioned officer( if I got accepted--I have a BFA in Fine Arts) or enlist. But I have a serious medical condition preventing me from joining. They won't take me, even if I took meds.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 11:37:21 PM by Mustang »

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Iran loses its only AWACS as Ahmadinejad threatens the world
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2009, 09:15:31 AM »
Mustang, the questions you ask about those decisions are intuitive and straightforward, but the answers are very complex and I have to say involve a thunderingly-boring level of complexity in explaining the way DOD decision-making works, even when it's working right.

Basically there is a limited budget that has to be split out among all the services.  Another half-dozen Raptors really may not be a good value versus an assault ship for the sea services to deploy an MEU, or filling a Stryker brigade for the Army...or it might be better.  There is a large geopolitical threat analysis process every year which produces a national defense analysis and continuing intelligence analyses in both the military and diplomatic arenas that are supposed to enter into it pretty heavily...but it would be childishly naive to say that politics and policy biases in both the legislative and executive branches don't influence the product.  These allocation decisions are painful and it has to be said involve some level of interservice politics and horse-trading within DOD, though ultimately the cap of the process is the SecDef himself, and his strength and vision directly affect the outcome.  Rumsfeld for instance was infamous for never meeting an aerospace program he didn't like, which worked out well for the carrier Navy, the boomers, and the Air Force, but led to a completely jacked-up misadventure in Iraq because he neither liked nor understood anything involving people, which is the lifeline of the Army and Marines, unlike the other services which are primarily about people supporting equipment rather than equipment supporting people.

Complicating this is that for incredibly expensive low-density items like ships, B-2s, F-22s, etc. the unit cost is a moving picture.  News reports often say things like "200 million per aircraft" but it doesn't really work that way, the unit cost depends entirely on the production run, a small order of a type in 2010 could cost more than twice the unit cost of a main production run that ended in 2008, even after adjusting for inflation.  The air services have a long history of viewing this as an acceptable cost to keep a production line open for spares and replacement aircraft, which while it is very expensive case-by-case, does make a lot of sense strategically.  In fact this is where the legendary $400 hammer/toilet seat whatever come from, basically either Government waste or a necessary way to keep the manufacturer alive and supplying spares in the long years between new orders, depending on your point of view.

Layered onto this is the fact that after all the good or bad decision-making in DOD, Congress has total control of the budget and can arbitrarily drop, add, or restrict funding for any particular reason they feel like, and often does exercise that power either as earmarks, amendments in committee, or semi-secretive mark-ups conference.  Most well-known is their penchant for buying something the DOD didn't ask for, like an additonal dozen aircraft of a type, possibly stretching out the delivery time as well, and usually so that jobs or at least money flows to the constituency of some powerful Congressman or Senator.  The same thing applies to things like basing decisions, which also mean a lot of money for some constituency.  Nor are these additional goodies necessarily just additional spending slapped on by a spendthrift Congress, they may involve complementary cuts in something the the services actually did regard as necessary.  The process for a service to actually go to Congress and fight to keep such a program depends as much on political issues as objective ones, meaning both DOD internal politics, Adminstration internal politics, and Congressional internal politics and external grandstanding for the voters as well.         

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