Lurking DUers

[DixieBelle]

Hello all, thank you for the welcome. I must admit, I can't imagine getting such a reasonable welcome if I were a conservative posting on DU (supposing for a moment that conservatives were allowed to post on DU, which of course they are not).

This is encouraging, although I expect that the warnings some gave are correct and I might encounter some hostility as the discussions progress. I will try to avoid responding unkindly to such hostility. This is you guys' house and I am a guest in it.

Thank you for not biting my head off immediately. I was wondering if the claim that this forum welcomes lefties to sign up and discuss the issues was genuine. It seems that it is. I congratulate you on being sincere about this invitation.

Welcome to CC. If you haven't already, please make sure you stop by the Welcome area. Also check out the rules of conduct in the suggestions and feedback section.

[LC EFA]

...

I'm not threatened, but I do think the tea partyers are having a lot of influence on the health care debate despite being the minority, because they are very willing to take a strong stand for what they believe in. I wish those on my side of the fence shared this willingness, but the derisive stereotype of lefties being armchair warriors has a certain amount of truth to it. We don't organize, we don't fight, we don't take to the streets, and therefore even a determined minority can derail our plans because we show no willingness to stand up for ourselves.

It's more that when you do take to the streets - there always seems to be a whole bunch of disparate sometimes conflicting messages being sent as if every fringe lunatic is using the gathering to voice their own demands and concerns rather than sending a universal message.

Also - that it seems every time you do take to the streets the confrontational people come out and make a right mess of your PR by acting like complete assholes and breaking things etc.

[djones520]

It's more that when you do take to the streets - there always seems to be a whole bunch of disparate sometimes conflicting messages being sent as if every fringe lunatic is using the gathering to voice their own demands and concerns rather than sending a universal message.

Also - that it seems every time you do take to the streets the confrontational people come out and make a right mess of your PR by acting like complete assholes and breaking things etc.

Bingo.  Beck made a good point a few days ago that during those protests in New York, more then 200 people where arrested.  Yet with the rally in D.C. where as many as two million might have been there, there wasn't a single arrest.

[Splashdown]

First of all, welcome.

You're going to be asked questions from all sides.

I have one.

Am I a racist for disagreeing with President Obama's vision for America? Specifically his health care plan and his choice to increase government intrusion into private industry?

Personally, I think Jimmy Carter, alleging racism for disagreeing with the administration further proves what a moron he is, but that's just me.

[djones520]

First of all, welcome.

You're going to be asked questions from all sides.

I have one.

Am I a racist for disagreeing with President Obama's vision for America? Specifically his health care plan and his choice to increase government intrusion into private industry?

Personally, I think Jimmy Carter, alleging racism for disagreeing with the administration further proves what a moron he is, but that's just me.

He actually made a post in the Jimmy thread here in the DUmp about that.

[Token]

LC EFA,

It's more that when you do take to the streets - there always seems to be a whole bunch of disparate sometimes conflicting messages being sent as if every fringe lunatic is using the gathering to voice their own demands and concerns rather than sending a universal message.

Also - that it seems every time you do take to the streets the confrontational people come out and make a right mess of your PR by acting like complete assholes and breaking things etc.

Yes, I can't honestly dispute any of that. Some of us do try to focus on presenting some kind of effective message, but getting leftists to stop the circular firing squad is like "herding cats," as they say. Most leftists are inherently anti-authoritarian (unless they are in the positions of authority), and some tend to see any kind of attempt at effective organization as fascism. And we do have our fair share of people who are insane and ruin PR for us, although I would suggest that is often a problem for your side of things as well.

Splashdown,

You're going to be asked questions from all sides.

I have one.

Am I a racist for disagreeing with President Obama's vision for America? Specifically his health care plan and his choice to increase government intrusion into private industry?

No. Disagreeing with Obama does not automatically make someone a racist. I personally find the way some DUers use "racism" and "sexism" as instant-win trump cards to shut down opposition repugnant. I've never done it and I've never agreed with it. It is a fundamentally dishonest method of debate.

Personally, I think Jimmy Carter, alleging racism for disagreeing with the administration further proves what a moron he is, but that's just me.

Did Carter do that? I was not aware. Can you provide a link to the details of this?

[djones520]

http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/09/16/obama-and-wh-team-turn-deaf-ear-to-carters-racism-allegations-deny-national-conversation-on-race-going-on-right-now/

Plenty of posts about it around here.  I'd suggest reading through the politics forum, so you can see some of the things from our viewpoints.

[franksolich]

http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/09/16/obama-and-wh-team-turn-deaf-ear-to-carters-racism-allegations-deny-national-conversation-on-race-going-on-right-now/

Plenty of posts about it around here.  I'd suggest reading through the politics forum, so you can see some of the things from our viewpoints.

It's also helpful to check the "political compass" test.

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,28899.0.html

It's in the DUmping Ground, a subsidiary forum to the DUmpster.

[BEG]

Did Carter do that? I was not aware. Can you provide a link to the details of this?

Charlie Gibson is that you?  

[Token]

I'll have a look, although I'm already fairly familiar with most conservative viewpoints as I've looked into it fairly extensively. Unlike some lefties, I think it's important to try to understand the opposition's perspective not as I'd like to characterize it, but as they themselves characterize it. Anyone can make up a caricature of the opposition which is pleasant to cling to and easy to knock down. It is much more challenging to try to see things from the actual perspective of others, and it also results in a better understanding of the debate.

Anyway, relating to Carter:

"I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man, that he is an African American," Carter told NBC Nightly News on Tuesday.

I think some of it is motivated by that, but by no means "an overwhelming portion." So I disagree with Carter here.

It's also helpful to check the "political compass" test.

Yeah, I'm around -8 on the economic scale and -3 on the social one. Hope that doesn't cause any heart attacks.  

[USA4ME]

I do wish you were willing to help those who do not have health care, but I understand you do not see that as your responsibility but rather each person's own.

Welcome.

Sometimes on the web things are said and not quite clear, which might be the case here, so if I misread then oops.

Conservatives have no problem helping others, we'd just prefer it be done prima facia rather than some gov't bureaucracy.  The same gov't that can give you healthcare can take it away or severly limit it, and we don't care to start down that road.  We prefer market solutions.  Give me the opprotunity to pitch in and help those who can't pay for their medical bills and I'm there, I'd just rather keep it local or statewide, smaller scale, and under control as to get more bang for the buck.  I really don't see this as a left/right thing.

The discussion on how to help those who don't have health insurance is a good one, but there's ways to do it that don't invlove add'l gov't.  For ease of understanding, call it our own version of being anti-authoritarian.

.

[Splashdown]

He actually made a post in the Jimmy thread here in the DUmp about that.

apologies.

Missed that.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Greetings token!  You seem civil and thoughtful, I look forward to interesting discussions.  I personally am not opposed to a public option that is limited to handling the actual problem that needs to be solved, which is how to cover people who commercial insurers completely refuse to cover and who desire coverage.  However I believe that there are far less drastic ways to do this than gutting the entire existing system with which about 85% of the population is relatively well-satisfied.

[Rebel]

I have a quick question for you, what the hell happened to your party? It seems that since the mid to late 60's the DNC has been taken over by far-left radicals who are sympathetic to left-wing despots and Communists?

So, WTF?

[Carl]

I'll have a look, although I'm already fairly familiar with most conservative viewpoints as I've looked into it fairly extensively. Unlike some lefties, I think it's important to try to understand the opposition's perspective not as I'd like to characterize it, but as they themselves characterize it. Anyone can make up a caricature of the opposition which is pleasant to cling to and easy to knock down. It is much more challenging to try to see things from the actual perspective of others, and it also results in a better understanding of the debate.

Anyway, relating to Carter:

I think some of it is motivated by that, but by no means "an overwhelming portion." So I disagree with Carter here.

Yeah, I'm around -8 on the economic scale and -3 on the social one. Hope that doesn't cause any heart attacks.  

How do you feel about the dem party now grabbing the "racisim" tag?
Not those just posting at Kos or DU but the political leaders.
Will that hurt race relations?

[Token]

Rebel,

I have a quick question for you, what the hell happened to your party? It seems that since the mid to late 60's the DNC has been taken over by far-left radicals who are sympathetic to left-wing despots and Communists?

So, WTF?

You'd have to specify which left-wing despots. Not too many Democrats are sympathetic to Kim Jong-Il, for example.

Carl,

How do you feel about the dem party now grabbing the "racisim" tag?
Not those just posting at Kos or DU but the political leaders.
Will that hurt race relations?

I don't like it. I think portions of the left have a fixation on accusing opponents of racism as a way to shut down debate and get an "easy win." The race card is played far too often. Not all opposition to progressive values springs from racism, and not all criticism of Obama does, either. When the left uses this race-based approach, we forfeit the opportunity to recognize and engage the real basis of opposition to our ideas, which is usually based on a conflict of core values.

[Carl]

Rebel,

You'd have to specify which left-wing despots. Not too many Democrats are sympathetic to Kim Jong-Il, for example.

Carl,

I don't like it. I think portions of the left have a fixation on accusing opponents of racism as a way to shut down debate and get an "easy win." The race card is played far too often. Not all opposition to progressive values springs from racism, and not all criticism of Obama does, either. When the left uses this race-based approach, we forfeit the opportunity to recognize and engage the real basis of opposition to our ideas, which is usually based on a conflict of core values.

It is easy to overlook things so in honesty do you now or have you seen the same tactic used from the right.
We were accused constantly of "questioning their patriotism" yet I never saw where or how.
Perhaps that is due to a bias I have so am curious if you ever saw a national Republican do that or in any other way shut down discussion with broad accusations using strawmen like that.

[Odin's Hand]

Rebel,

You'd have to specify which left-wing despots. Not too many Democrats are sympathetic to Kim Jong-Il, for example.

President Clinton promised North Korea's leader in a letter released today that if the planned international financing for new nuclear reactors fell through, he would do his utmost to have the United States provide them.

Last week the United States and North Korea reached an agreement in which the North pledged to freeze its nuclear program in return for having the United States and other members of an international consortium build two light-water reactors and provide oil until the reactors are built.

In the letter to Kim Jung Il, Mr. Clinton committed himself "to use the full powers of my office," subject to Congressional approval, to have the United States provide the reactors if the project is not completed for reasons beyond the control of North Korea, like a failure by South Korea or Japan to come up with all the money they have promised to build the reactors.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/27/world/clinton-in-letter-assures-north-koreans-on-nuclear-reactors.html

Yeah, a real icy relationship there...

[Token]

He's trying to stop the nuclear weapons program. What would be your preferred approach to that goal?

[Odin's Hand]

He's trying to stop the nuclear weapons program. What would be your preferred approach to that goal?

By giving them MORE nuke tech? How'd that work out by the way?

One of the first things I'd prefer for the expediting of toppling the Jong-Il family dynasty, brought to you under the banner of communism BTW, over there would be rescindment of Executive Order 11905 Section 5(G).

[Lord Undies]

Lil'Kim, while secretly a hero to the American left, is too famous for failure to be advertised as a role model the way Fido and Yugo are, even though both Fido, Yugo, and Lil'Kim are one-in-the-same and interchangable.  It's all about perception.  It's all about racism, too.  The American Left is not real fond of Yellow People.

[Carl]

Lil'Kim, while secretly a hero to the American left, is too famous for failure to be advertised as a role model the way Fido and Yugo are, even though both Fido, Yugo, and Lil'Kim are one-in-the-same and interchangable.  It's all about perception.  It's all about racism, too.  The American Left is not real fond of Yellow People.

Or despite their loyalty as a voting block the Jews.
I am also curious why the intense and inordinate hatred the left has for any religion relating directly to the Bible but such respect for all that are not.

[Lord Undies]

Or despite their loyalty as a voting block the Jews.
I am also curious why the intense and inordinate hatred the left has for any religion relating directly to the Bible but sucj respect for all that are not.

It's not so hard to understand when you accept that it is Satan himself which is driving the Left.  Satan hates Christ and all things Christian.  It's only natural. 

I am firmly convinced Islam was invented by Satan.  I don't believe for a second that everyone who subscribes to Islam is a Satan worshipper on purpose.  There is a lot of ignorance and simple-mindedness involved, just like with the simpler folks to follow the American Left.   There just isn't the intelligence out there to really think things through to their logical conclusion.  Satan and the American Left depend on and build on that sad pathetic side of human nature.

[Carl]

It's not so hard to understand when you accept that it is Satan himself which is driving the Left.  Satan hates Christ and all things Christian.  It's only natural. 

I am firmly convinced Islam was invented by Satan.  I don't believe for a second that everyone who subscribes to Islam is a Satan worshipper on purpose.  There is a lot of ignorance and simple-mindedness involved, just like with the simpler folks to follow the American Left.   There just isn't the intelligence out there to really think things through to their logical conclusion.  Satan and the American Left depend on and build on that sad pathetic side of human nature.

That is my belief too but am curious as to how one that perhaps holds a differing religious view would explain it.

[Lord Undies]

That is my belief too but am curious as to how one that perhaps holds a differing religious view would explain it.

To hold a differing view is to deny the truth on purpose, or be one of the simple ones who cannot think for themselves, so it really doesn't matter.  Their views are not valid in reality.