Author Topic: Criminals commit crimes  (Read 916 times)

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Offline Crazy Horse

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Criminals commit crimes
« on: February 25, 2008, 10:55:03 AM »
Oh hell................This small campfire has gasoline sitting all around it awaiting to poured on.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x159920

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Indy Lurker (511 posts)      Mon Feb-25-08 10:33 AM
Original message
Criminals commit crimes
 Advertisements [?]This is especially true of crimes with guns such as homicides.

This, I think, is point that needs to be made to folks who think we need more gun control.
This, I think, is where the confusion lies.

I believe everyone wants to keep gun out of the hands of convicted criminals, whether it's armed robbers, or those who commit domestic violence.

I think people who qualify to legally purchase firearms are not committing most of the crimes with guns. In fact, I think they stop a great deal of crime.

If it can be shown that the average citizen who legally carries a firearm deters more crimes and commits fewer crimes than the average citizen, there can be no "logical" reason to restrict firearms from being legally carried by the average citizen.

But what I think isn't really important, what's important, is what can be proven with data and facts.

So, let me pose a question, to be answered with data and facts, not just emotion and "common knowledge"

Does an average citizen who legally carries a firearm deter more crime or commit more crime that the average citizen?

Low post count...........pro gun.................Freeper Troll

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meegbear  (1000+ posts)       Mon Feb-25-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Can you answer a question ...
 You said: I think people who qualify to legally purchase firearms are not committing most of the crimes with guns. In fact, I think they stop a great deal of crime.

Then before you ask your question, you say: So, let me pose a question, to be answered with data and facts, not just emotion and "common knowledge"

The question to you, to be answered with data and facts, not just emotion and "common knowledge", is what is the data that shows that people who legally purchase firearms have stopped a great deal of crime?

This style of debate from Primitives gets really tiring

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Indy Lurker (511 posts)      Mon Feb-25-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. If I had the data I wouldn't needed to ask for it. :)
 I will do some digging,

But I imagine it will be something on defensive gun use, and conviction rate of gun owners.

 
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jmg257  (872 posts)      Mon Feb-25-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes - but the numbers are VERY close. DO NOT count on stats to justify
 Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 11:00 AM by jmg257
unalienable rights - they do not always agree! Although in this case - they do.

From an anti-gun report "An evaluation of state firearms regulations and homicide suicide rates", from a Univ of Pittsburgh group.

Now - 1st thing, while looking at gun laws, they compare "homicide" and "firearm homicide" rates - NOT "murder", "gun related murder", or other gun related crimes, so what exactly they were trying to prove escapes me; they mention however the attempt to study 'the benefits of shall issue laws enacted with the goal of curtailing fiream deaths'... {hmmmmmm...'K....thought they were enacted to give the people back the right to self-security, avoid letting the people be unwilling victims of violent criminals, or...}

BUT ANYWAY, from

Table 2:
---------------
Rates per 100,000...
Firearm Homicides : 5.00
Firearm Homicides : 5.90
All Homicides : 7.5
All homicides : 8.99

"Summary Point 3: A "shall issue" law that permits the carrying of a handgun in an unrestricted fashion may be associated with an increase in homicide rates."

WHAT????? But the numbers...right there...BOTH "w/ shall issue" homicide rates were lower... ???

And from
Table 4 Suicides
---------------------
Rates per 100,00...
Firearm Suicides : 9.70
Firearm Suicides : 10.20
All Suicides : 14.5
All Suicides :14.5

"Summary point 4: "Little evidence was observed that any of the laws evaluated (they include legal age 21 laws) were associated with a significant reduction in either firearm homicide or firearm suicide rates."

GREAT - not that it is an issue, but what about the fact that...
THE CHARTS - YOUR CHARTS - show a reduction in not only Firearm Homicides, but all homicides AND a reduction in firearm suicides with shall issue laws vs. w/o shall issue laws, so ??

What the study REALLY showed:

"with regards to the enactment of shall issue laws, even firearm homicides and suicides did not get worse, and in fact, they went down.


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Spoonman (996 posts)      Mon Feb-25-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. Logic in not used by most
 of the ravenous anti-gun crowd found posting here, so you are setting yourself up for disappointment from the start.

Not being a total killjoy, here are the numbers from Texas as it relates to your question.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_recor...

These conviction rates clearly show that CCL holders are FAR less likely to commit, not just homicides, but ANY type of criminal act.

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jmg257  (872 posts)      Mon Feb-25-08 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. And for law-abiding CCW holders:
 "One study found that in Florida CCW holders were 300 times less likely than the general population to commit a crime. The firearm crime rate among license holders, annually averaging only several crimes per 100,000 licensees, is a fraction of the rate for the state as a whole. Between the beginning of Florida’s permitting program and the end of 2005, the state issued 1,104,468 concealed weapons permits. During that time period; 3,643 permits were revoked—a rate of about .3 percent. Of those revocations; 2,941 involved a crime after licensure; 157 of those crimes involved the use of a firearm. "
************

"A Texas study found that CCW holders in that state were "5.7 times less likely to commit a violent crime, and 14 times less likely to commit a non-violent offense."
************

"North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law."

*********
"Georgia: "studies by numerous independent researchers and state agencies have found that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes"

*********
in 2004, the state of Utah had a permit revocation rate of about .4 percent. The rate for revocations due to
firearm offenses was .02 percent..

**********
"between 1986 and 2003, only .8 percent of Kentucky's 71,770 licenses were revoked for any reason"

**********
"in 2001, Indiana revoked about .2 percent of its outstanding concealed weapon permits"

**********
"since the inception of its concealed weapons program in 1995, Virginia has seen a revocation rate of just .2
percent."

*********
"between October of 1994 and February of 1996, the state of Wyoming issued 2,273 permits and revoked
four, a revocation rate of just under .2 percent.

*********
"between 1996, when its shall-issue law passed, and September of 1999, the state of Oklahoma issued 30,406
permits and revoked only 62–a rate of .2 percent."


The truth shouldn't come as a surprise either.
This is what you typically know about a person who has a CCW in many states:
(specifically Tennessee in the example)

They've never been convicted of "any felony offense punishable for a term exceeding one (1) year".
They've never been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
They've never been convicted of the offense of stalking.
They were not under indictment at the time they applied for a CCW.
They were not the subject of an order of protection at the time they applied for a CCW.
They haven't had a DUI in the past five years or two or more DUIs in the past 10 years
They haven't been under treatment for or hospitalized for addiction to drugs or alcohol in the past 10 years.
They've never been adjudicated as mentally defective.
They've never been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions ("dishonorable discharge, bad conduct discharge or other than honorable discharge Chapter 1340-2-5-.02 (5)").
They've never renounced their U.S. citizenship.
They've never received social security disability benefits "by reason of alcohol dependence, drug dependence or mental disability."


Besides, most CCW holders know exactly what the law is, and the responsibility of carrying and the serious implications of using a CCW inappropriately, so many holders tend to AVOID more situations that may be inclined to lead to trouble
.
 
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unpossibles  (1000+ posts)      Mon Feb-25-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
5. I agree 100% that the vast majority of gun owners (myself included) are law-abiding
 I think the problem most people have - and this is a guess, honestly - is the fear that those guns (and other guns) will be more easily purchased/stolen by criminals, and/or that those guns may fall into the hands of people who are less than responsible, but ot criminals, such as children who do not understand or appreciate firearm safety.

I think the issue gets clouded by emotional rhetoric on both sides. Each side lumps many disparate elements into one homogenous group. The pro-gun side thinks everyone else is anti-gun, that they all want to ban all guns, etc., when many in the gun-control side really just want the guns more regulated or licensed. Same with the anti-gun & pro-control side - they see the pro-gun side as being fervent and irrational, and maybe worse. I don't know.

I am all for responsible gun ownership, and fully support the CCL for that reason. I am not anti-gun (or other weapon) in the least, but I would like people to be more responsible and educated if possible, and that means people on both sides of the issue. Yes, most of my gun buddies are very educated and responsible - not saying they aren't - but we need to be realistic about the effect guns have on our society as well, I think. I also know more than a few total hot-heads who legally carry, but who I don't trust to do so. I mean folks who have extensive violence records, etc., yet are still able to carry. Can't say I am too crazy about that, even though they are in the minority.

Anyway, my 2¢. Not trying to start flames.


Wow...........sane and rational thoughts
You got off your ass, now get your wife off her back.