Pedro Picasso offers no excuse; Twix candy bar primitive defends cops

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.org/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6264245

Oh my.

This is an enormous bonfire.

RamboLiberal  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 12:16 AM
Original message
 
Video: Cop sweeps knife-wielding elderly woman, nearly causing 'riot'

On the night of August 1, at a Whitehall, Ohio Walmart, Virginia Dodson could not remember why she was sitting alone in a car. Coming to grips with her enclosed environment, it dawned on her that she did not know how to unbuckle her seat belt either. Panic began to take hold.

Her solution was to scrounge up a steak knife and cut through the straps, eventually finding her way into the confusing world of the parking lot. It was not long before the police were called.

Virginia, an 84-year-old African American, has Alzheimer's disease. Like many other sufferers, the responsibility for her care fell to her adult child. Her daughter, however, was inside the store.

As she wandered the parking lot calling her daughter's name, she was approached by a white, female officer who clearly ordered her to drop the weapon. She did not.

What happened next was captured on video and uploaded that same night to YouTube by user "mainetaine187," who says on camera as the scene escalates, "We gotta get real footage of this shit, haha!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xW_-bSxTyI&feature=play...

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/08/video-ohio-cop-bodysla... /

As someone who trained for a number of years in martial arts - I always found that most police lacked these skills. This officer could've disarmed this old lady with little danger to herself without resorting to a sweep that cracked the back of the ladies head against the pavement. Also aren't they trained to recognize someone of this age may be suffering from Alzheimers or dementia?

I changed the title from "bodyslammed" to "sweeps" because that looked more like the takedown method to me and "bodyslammed" was certainly more inflammatory.

Looks like these police officers didn't have tasers or they probably would've tased her.

This bonfire's so big I'll quote only the Primitives of Prominence.

The Twix candy bar primitive:

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
 
4. We don't know the situation

The idiot with the camera (who thought it was funny by his comments, BTW) had her out of view before the take down happened. It could be she took a swipe at the officer with the knife. Even though she could be easily taken down if you just stand there and let her stab you guess what? YOU WILL DIE no matter how old she is.

I think the officer probably tried to disarm her with out hurting her but threw her down too hard. You can take someone down with out causing injury sometimes that doesn't happen though.

I would only be concerned if the officer shot her or tazed her.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #80
 
81. Pepper spray should have been used on the crowd especially the guy who acted like he wanted to be a big man.

Pedro Picasso:

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #9

89. So these young, heathy ARMED police felt threatened by an 84 yo with a kitchen knife?

They don't belong on the police force. They're supposed to be trained to assess a situation and take appropriate action. Your halocaust museum comparison is false. That man could not have taken out a large group of people with a kitchen knife. Once they were that close to the woman, it would have been clear that she was frail, and either one of these officers could have grabbed her arm and neutralized her. There is no excuse.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
 
7. No everyone knows elderly people are incapable of violence

don't give a recent example of an extremely old person comitting acts of violence! They are helpless after all.

The lying lorien primitive:

Lorien  (1000+ posts)      Mon Aug-10-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #2

113. Downright delusional

man, I hope you never wear a badge if you are so entirely incapable of sanely assessing a situation like that.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
 
16. Yea the difference would have been the force used

she would have had some bullets in her if she had a gun.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
 
28. Read THE DAMN DETAILS before you sound like anymore of a fool

The damn lady had just earlier stabbed a child.

Should the officer have just left her to roam the parking lot to do it to another?

The Zbigniew primitive:

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #35
 
45. Alzheimers. she is not triable. She is not aware of what is going on 

one of the horrific elements of this disease.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #38
 
39. I don't give a damn about the excuses

She assaulted a kid (words are NOT an excuse to pull a knife on a kid), roamed the park lot with it after, and refused orders to drop it after being asked several times.

She got what was coming to her. I only feel bad for the kid and the cop for having to make a take down I am sure she didn't like having to do. But it had to be done.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #42
 
49. Cops would not have been called otherwise

That is some BS. No one calls 911 with out something having been done to them.

The cop did a very non-damaging take down considering the shit this lady had pulled already. A lot of people when they get this ladys age get a BIG attitude. They don't like following orders even when they are a threat to others. Looks like she learned to drop the knife next time. She is fortunate the cops didn't blow her away. A lot of cops would have and would have been cleared of all charges after. She is lucky she got a nice cop that was willing to risk her own safety to deal with this ladys BS.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #51
 
54. Don't give a damn

She was a threat and had a lethal weapon. She already acted in a hostile manner and assaulted a child.

Even if the cops put a bullet in her they would have been in the right.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #58
 
61. It is not BS

It is now being reported on a more reliable source.

It is BS that poor old granny did nothing wrong so some people can push the "all cops are evil" agenda. The cop acted in a VERY non-hostile manner than most cops would have.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #65
 
67. Here you go

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-12050...

And I hope the cops located her daughther that was supposed to be making sure she didn't pull shit like this, arrested her, and charged her with neglect.

I would also have pulled out the mace for that SOB that tried to get involved and charged him with interfering with an arrest.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #67
 
68. They will not charge anybody and that is the way it should be.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #72
 
78. Speaking of youtube incase you were not aware

Youtube is a collection of ****ing morons who generally have run ins with the cops themselves and have criminal records. Just look at some of the people in this crowd and the shit they say. I would bet money 50% of them have a criminal record.

If I was the other cop I would have brought the mace and tazers out for the ones who wanted to get involved. They were technically guilty of interfering with an arrest and I would have called for backup to arrest half of them. More than likely they would have netted some folks with an outstanding warrant in that little mob as a bonus.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #52
 
59. Nope I wouldn't because unlike you I am a logical person and I don't fear people like this lady unless there is reason to do so. In this case there was reason to do so.

If she hadn't acted in a hostile manner, made threats, and assaulted a child she wouldn't have been taken down. (see the story linked by another poster to see exactly what she did)

She was a threat and the cops would have been in the right to go as far as blowing her away.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #50
 
53. If it had been me the cops took down

Once I got my wits about me I would thank the cop for stopping me before I killed someone which I would have regretted the rest of my life, and thanked them for not blowing me away after I had pulled that kind of shit already.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #60
 
64. Learn to read

I said I would have thanked them for NOT using lethal force as they would have been fully right to do so if they chose.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #60
 
71. That was NOT lethal force 

it was on the very low end of Non LETHAL force.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #120
 
148. They teach take down techniques at the academy 

at least the local academy.

They also teach cops that everything they do in a less than lethal scenario might be lethal to some individuals. Oh and cops go through all they will do in the field, save getting shot, while in the academy.

In this case the cop ordered the woman to drop the knife. When she did not comply she had to go up the escalation of force. I hate it when cops have to do that, but what else did you guys want the officer to do? Walk away? Or if they took out the shotgun and used a bean bag and broke the arm, would that have been better?

I know most people talk of things like this in an ideal world... we do not live in that ideal world. And that is unfortunate. I mean in an ideal world we would not even need cops.

The Zbigniew primitive joins the Twix candy bar primitive in defending cops, and then the maudlin waif primitive, who's had trouble with cops before:

Mythsaje  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #105
 
152. Please...

You don't get to whine about how America is turning fascist and then apologize for a clear act of unnecessary violence against a mentally ill grandmother saying the cops would have been justified using lethal force. Taking a knife away from this woman would've been like taking a knife away from a child (something I have done personally) and involves a modicum of skill, quick reflexes, and a willingness to suffer a minor injury to prevent a more serious injury.

If our cops are such universally ill-trained chickenshits it's no wonder this kind of crap is happening more and more often.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #152
 
209. Given I have dealt with innocent gramdmas that have turned violent I will say this, you have no clue what you are talking about.

The officer did use the lesser amount of force necessary.

If the officer shot her, it would have been wrong, if the officer tasered her it would have been wrong, if the officer tackled her, it was wrong, if they used a shotgun with a bean bag I(which would have broken the arm) would have been wrong.

Nothing cops do is alright for some folks, and it would be best if cops just went away.

When we live in that society... it will be great. but in the real world where I live... I applaud the cops in THIS case. They did use the least ammount of force. And just because you are 82 and have Alzheimer does not mean you cannot become a danger, if just for an instant. The fact that nobody charged anybody is a GOOD thing. If the DA had charged, I would have laughed, since that is not something you can prosecute.

For some folks on DU it does not matter what cops do... they automatically are always in the wrong. ALWAYS, that is the default position. I tend to judge them event by event. When they do wrong, I will and am critical... when they do right, I will defend them. Live with it.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
 
11. If I was that cop

I would have put several bullets in you before you touched me and had no regret.

This cop obviously tried to disarm her with out injury, but the old lady lost her footing. When you are grabbing a knife from someone you can't fully control the balance of the other person. Obviously you've never been in that situation before and have not a clue what you are talking about.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
 
27. Damn right I would have

If you would bother to READ THE DAMN STORY instead of come to ignorant conclusions you would know the officer was responding because the old lady had just earlier stabbed a kid.

Yea, but obviously she was harmless right?

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #47
 
74. I said if I was the cop

I said if I was the cop and the poster on here who said he would "try to kill me" actually tried it I would have put several bullets in him which would have been the appropriate response to someone who wants to be a cop killer.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #88
 
150. The guy who made the video sounds like an uneducated drug dealer to me with a mission to make the cops look bad. He all but admitted that in the video, and thought the take down was funny at first. He is a scum bag and has half the people watching the video fooled.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
 
43. This actually was the use of the least ammount of force and that was a take down taught in the academy.

They could have, and it would have been a justified shooting, used lethal force.

Should it have been handled differently? Perhaps, but that actually looks like the lesser amount of force needed, and yes, I have been in a similar situation as a medic. My victim was a 20 something suicidal patient with a large knife, that charged me. She ended up on the floor, hands behind her back and my knee on her back, until the cops came in. If the cops had been on scene, and I quote, they would have used lethal force. Why? A knife is a weapon, a lethal weapon. Oh and yes, we ended up transporting to the medical psychiatric ward on a medical psychiatric hold, in case you wonder. The DA ended up charging her with assault with a deadly weapon... I know peaches and cream all around. In the end they dropped charges as her psychiatric condition was such that she could not be tried. That said, she could have killed somebody that day, chiefly me.

Before you say it, those were not Murican cops, but were using the SAME threat matrix as my city cops.

Jesus age, people you'd be screaming if the cops used lethal force! You'd be screaming if they used a taser, you are screaming since they used a take down...

I wish patients with mental problems were always complaint and never a threat to personnel, law enforcement, medical or emergency services, but actually having been there done that, for real in the streets... my hat goes off to those cops for handling it without getting hurt and not getting anybody ELSE hurt. And I hope this lady only got bumps, bruises and some stitches, nobody is going to charge her. The system is not that nuts, ok.

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #48
 
56. Having worked in the field, as a medic, that was actually apropriate use of force 

PR nightmare, absolutely. But it was the approriate use of force. And I hope Mrs Dobson recovers soon from this... and so does her daughter.

Mythsaje  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
 
155. My wife, who has been both an EMT and a CO would disagree with you...

But pull up all the alleged expertise you like. Hypocrite.

One remains curious as to why the maudlin waif primitive has had bad experiences with cops.

TwixVoy  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #69
 
73. Exactly

Which is why I said in another posts already the cops should have also arrested her daughter and charged her with neglect.

Mythsaje  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #84
 
158. Martial arts as a sport involves rules...

Most martial artists--particularly those who learn competitive arts--are taught that fighting has rules. It doesn't. And part of the problem is that too many people think TKD and the like are worth a **** in a fight. They're not. You want to teach an effective martial art, teach escrima or one of the other related Filipino stick fighting arts. MMA and the like are just as bad because they also assume rules that don't rightfully exist. There is only one rule to fighting. Win.

Taking a knife away from an old lady is like taking one away from a child. You distract, take control of the wrist, and remove the weapon. No one gets hurt. At worst you suffer a slice to the forearm. At worst. Of course, it does require the person understand angles and leverage. And yes, even you cops are probably smart enough to grasp such simple concepts. Probably.

Lorien  (1000+ posts)      Mon Aug-10-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #87
 
111. Junior brownshirts

Lorien  (1000+ posts)      Mon Aug-10-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #85
 
112. "In France the government is afraid of the people, In America the people are afraid of their government". Authoritarianism rules in the US of A, and some people here obviously love it!

The militant gigolo-in-training primitive:

armyowalgreens  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
 
210. You can sweep without slamming the person into the ground...

There a many techniques to take someone off their feet without bashing them into the asphalt.

The officer clearly never learned those techniques.

[thundley4]

Not to worry, these "old people" with Alzheimer's will be force to go gently into that good night under 0Bamacare. 

[GOBUCKS]

nadinbrzezinski  (1000+ posts)        Mon Aug-10-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #35
 
45. Alzheimers. she is not triable. She is not aware of what is going on 

one of the horrific elements of this disease.

A reminder of the only worthwhile post ever made by vestanumbers: A mention of an elderly person who had "old timer's disease".

[vesta111]

A reminder of the only worthwhile post ever made by vestanumbers: A mention of an elderly person who had "old timer's disease".

Age or disability does not give ANYONE be it 5 years of age to 95 the right to put others in harms way.

Excuses such as " But their just a child they don't know what they are doing / or / But their very old and don't know what they are doing."   Just doesn't excuse anyone from indangering another.

I agree with one poster that said the daughter should be charged with neglect.  Where did that old lady get a knife.? 

Actually people with this disease can be more dangerous then young folk. They have low tolerance for frustration and become paranoid, and destructive.

We tend to let down our guard around the very old and that is where you can get hurt.

5 years working in a nursing home way back then, I have seen some old folk do some amazing things.