DUmmies Discuss Local Taxes - Agree Other People Should Pay

[GOBUCKS]

This is a routine DUmmy whine about how higher taxes are good, but not for the whining DUmmy.

kitkat65  (1000+ posts)      Fri Jul-31-09 12:56 PM
Original message
My town is up for income tax increase vote next week
Yes, I want to make sure we keep our services running, etc.

But what gets me is, would this even be necessary if wages haven't become so stagnant in the last thirty years? Or if unemployment wasn't so bad?

I don't think this increase will get to the bottom of, nor force leaders to examine or resolve why we have gotten to this point. Are they going to address the issue of jobs being lost to manufacturing going overseas, healthcare costs, bank industry practices, etc? I know most of these issues need to be addressed at the federal government level, but will saying no to an increase on the local level somehow trickle up? Am I being naive?

If they don't resolve these issues, then isn't there just going to be another income tax increase down the road? Where does it end?

The median income for a household in the city was $37,897, and the median income for a family was $47,391.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus,_Ohio

It's a .5% increase, so an average of about $200-ish per household.

On a side note, the mayor who is pushing this is saying it's a police/firefighter services issue, but our neighbors - who are firefighters - say it's bullshit since the money is not guaranteed to go there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6192671
Here in Red State Hell, we have no state or city income tax. Of course, democrats have tried to change that, but so far we have enough normal people to prevent it from happening. The last time they tried, normal people were chucking rocks at the statehouse, even broke out a few windows.

This reply, from another DUmmy in favor of raising taxes on other people, is the main reason I brought this over:

Romulox (1000+ posts)        Fri Jul-31-09 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think property owners should pay for city services.
I oppose city income taxes primarily because they are generally a substitute for a fair distribution of the tax burden among property owners. Here in Michigan (like California) we have a property tax structure that protects long-time owners from property tax increases while the full force of current tax rates is paid by new tax payers.

This has two results:

a) young people pay a far higher tax rate that older people
b) there is a huge and politically active portion of the electorate which can direct.spending without being subject to paying for any of it. I wonder if Ohio has some similar "grandfather" clause (which works to the benefit of commercial real estate holders, too!)

The bold sentence is about the best description of the democrat party I've seen.

[Ralph Wiggum]

would this even be necessary if wages haven't become so stagnant in the last thirty years?

What the hell is this DUmmy smoking?  What were average salaries in 1979, $20k or so?  And they've now more than doubled?  I'm just making up figures to illustrate, someone else can certainly look up the exact numbers.

[franksolich]

During the recent budget crisis in California--and there's more to come--I read that civic officials, when talking about "cutting services" because a tax increase isn't approved by the voters, use "cutting police and firemen" as threat, as if no other cuts are possible.

Of course, it's all nonsense.

One doesn't have to cut police and firemen; one can always find plenty of fat to cut, inside city hall itself, or in schools with more desk-sitting bureaucrats than teachers.

It's a scare tactic used by the higher-taxes enthusiasts.

[thundley4]

Are they going to address the issue of jobs being lost to manufacturing going overseas,

How about addressing why those jobs are going over seas?  High corporate taxes and greedy unions. 

[DumbAss Tanker]

What the hell is this DUmmy smoking?  What were average salaries in 1979, $20k or so?  And they've now more than doubled?  I'm just making up figures to illustrate, someone else can certainly look up the exact numbers.

Looking back at what I was paid for what I did then, and what it pays now, doubling is pretty close.

[Chris_]

How about addressing why those jobs are going over seas?  High corporate taxes and greedy unions. 

Now now.  Let's not confuse a perfectly good DUmbass screed with facts.

Countering a DUmbass with facts is kinda like trying to teach a gorilla to write.  Eventually he's just going to get so frustrated, he'll stab you in the eye with the pen for your efforts.

[Wineslob]

During the recent budget crisis in California--and there's more to come--I read that civic officials, when talking about "cutting services" because a tax increase isn't approved by the voters, use "cutting police and firemen" as threat, as if no other cuts are possible.
Of course, it's all nonsense.

One doesn't have to cut police and firemen; one can always find plenty of fat to cut, inside city hall itself, or in schools with more desk-sitting bureaucrats than teachers.
It's a scare tactic used by the higher-taxes enthusiasts.

Actually the favorite of the Dims here is to name a smaller increase as cut. Complete and utter horsecrap.

That has been going forever. The old joke was a cartoon of teachers being "shown the door"  while a sign on the wall said "hiring admin".

The wailing and gnashing of teeth has just started here. The fatted calves are having the pigs trough pulled out from under them, and it's about time.

[miskie]

During the recent budget crisis in California--and there's more to come--I read that civic officials, when talking about "cutting services" because a tax increase isn't approved by the voters, use "cutting police and firemen" as threat, as if no other cuts are possible.

Of course, it's all nonsense.

One doesn't have to cut police and firemen; one can always find plenty of fat to cut, inside city hall itself, or in schools with more desk-sitting bureaucrats than teachers.

It's a scare tactic used by the higher-taxes enthusiasts.

Thats the Massachusetts method as well - reduce police, firemen and teachers as a way to coerce people into higher taxes. The only difference is here they actually cut police, firemen, and teachers before cutting waste or reducing bureaucracy while increasing taxes anyway.

[jukin]

How about addressing why those jobs are going over seas?  High corporate taxes and greedy unions. 

I think the single biggest business, particularly manufacturing, is the draconian environmental regulations.  That has directly driven the textile, printed circuit, machine tool, and chemical industries out to more friendly and understanding governments/localities.

[thundley4]

I think the single biggest business, particularly manufacturing, is the draconian environmental regulations.  That has directly driven the textile, printed circuit, machine tool, and chemical industries out to more friendly and understanding governments/localities.

Very good point, but the taxes and salary costs have an effect too. I would agree that environmental wackos have been a major problem when it comes to new refineries or new power plants,(of any kind).

[Karin]

OTOH, there can be TOO many police.  In one upstate town (Massena to Carl and Saint), the property taxes are HUGE.  Like $12K per year for just a nice house.  The place is crawling with police, and it's not a high crime area, just normal peaceful people.   They cruise around, stop for donuts and a chit chat.  At $12K a year, I could never move there.  WTF?

BTW, why is there a banner ad for a muslim dating service here? Sometimes those things are funny to troll around on. 

[Carl]

OTOH, there can be TOO many police.  In one upstate town (Massena to Carl and Saint), the property taxes are HUGE.  Like $12K per year for just a nice house.  The place is crawling with police, and it's not a high crime area, just normal peaceful people.   They cruise around, stop for donuts and a chit chat.  At $12K a year, I could never move there.  WTF?

BTW, why is there a banner ad for a muslim dating service here? Sometimes those things are funny to troll around on. 

That is NYS in a nutshell and part of the reason we are broke.
The duplication of services brought about by the public employee unions has left every town and county with a mountain of expense.

To address the stupid point made by the op on the presumption that if incomes have risen 100 times more then they have there would be money falling out of the capital.

Wrong wrong wrong and provable by every government in the country....increase the amount of revenue and the spending increases with it with no calculation to the maintenance costs of the initial spending.
To suggest anything otherwise is simply ignorant.

[BlueStateSaint]

OTOH, there can be TOO many police.  In one upstate town (Massena to Carl and Saint), the property taxes are HUGE.  Like $12K per year for just a nice house.  The place is crawling with police, and it's not a high crime area, just normal peaceful people.   They cruise around, stop for donuts and a chit chat.  At $12K a year, I could never move there.  WTF?

Well, Clarkson and SLU aren't that far away . . . I once walked eleven miles because of some ****ing douchebag's practical joke, one night when I was at SLU.  I wish that the NYSP in Massena (where a cousin of mine was stationed at the time, BTW) would have done something.  I made sure that the message got back to them that if I got to the NYSP substation on US 11 before they found me, that the NYSP would be giving the perpetrators some "matching bracelets."  They found me about half a mile from the substation.  I was pissed.  One of them had participated because I nailed his girlfriend--twice, while they were "broken up."  Well, she obviously liked me, and I had no idea that they were going to get back together . . . Oh well.  Live and learn.

[Chris]

A moonbat I used to work with would argue about taxes.  His rationale was that if the federal government doesn't raise your tax rates through the roof, the local and state government will do it instead so there was no use in fighting it.  It was like arguing with a tree stump, but I guess that is to be expected when you spend your formative years in the liberal meccas of Dearbornistan and New Yawk.

[The Village Idiot]

I have an idea. Lets divide the local property and sales taxes. Your tax bill will be divied up specifying how much goes to fire, police, parks, water-sewage-waste collection and other things. How much goes to fund the gay library? How much os 'overhead' at City Hall and all that too.

I think it would be great if they couldn't take from one to give to a pet prroject, and they couldn't lie about what a proposed tax incease is for.

[The Village Idiot]

Like a city with an arts budget couldn't abolish it in an emergency? or a gay library? or a community center for every ethnicity? Of course out here we are heavily subsidizing bus services and everything else the politicians can think of.

[crockspot]

On a side note, the mayor who is pushing this is saying it's a police/firefighter services issue, but our neighbors - who are firefighters - say it's bullshit since the money is not guaranteed to go there.

DUmmy, I would listen to your neighbor. Firefighters are not known for opposing something that would benefit their paychecks.

[NHSparky]

Like a city with an arts budget couldn't abolish it in an emergency? or a gay library? or a community center for every ethnicity? Of course out here we are heavily subsidizing bus services and everything else the politicians can think of.

Bingo--we have an Opera House.  No, I'm not kidding.  It's over 100 years old and I can only imagine the amount of public resources that goes into keeping that place open, heated, cooled, etc.  One good thing about NH is you do get to see a breakdown of where your property tax goes.  For example, in my town, the property tax is $19.99 per $1000 assessed value, meaning I pay just over $5100 after my veteran's exemption is applied.  The breakdown is as follows:

Town Tax: $6.25
Local Education Tax: $9.20
State Education Tax: $2.26
County Tax: $2.28

So really, over half my tax bill goes towards education.  If I really wanted to cut or at least see where cuts could be made, there is where I'd start.  Then again, the schools here have free breakfasts and lunches for anyone under 18 during the summer.  Really?  I never had that growing up--who knew?  I'm not saying kids should go hungry, but dayum--how much food gets made/wasted instead of giving mom and dad a loaf of bread and telling the kid to make a sandwich?

[mamacags]

What the hell is this DUmmy smoking?  What were average salaries in 1979, $20k or so?  And they've now more than doubled?  I'm just making up figures to illustrate, someone else can certainly look up the exact numbers.

It's a DUmmy talking.  They probably started working at Quickimart in 1979 for 1.75 an hour and have never gotten a raise.

[The Village Idiot]

So really, over half my tax bill goes towards education.  If I really wanted to cut or at least see where cuts could be made, there is where I'd start.  Then again, the schools here have free breakfasts and lunches for anyone under 18 during the summer.  Really?  I never had that growing up--who knew?  I'm not saying kids should go hungry, but dayum--how much food gets made/wasted instead of giving mom and dad a loaf of bread and telling the kid to make a sandwich?

There is probably at least one school in your area that serves free breakfast and lunch during the Summer too. Believe it or not.

[NHSparky]

There is probably at least one school in your area that serves free breakfast and lunch during the Summer too. Believe it or not.

Yes, I know--my point was, none of the schools I ever went to in damn near a dozen states ever had this program--reduced price lunches during school, yes.  But not free breakfasts and lunches during the summer.