primitives discuss high school dropouts

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5902646

Oh my.

mopinko  (1000+ posts)        Mon Jun-22-09 10:52 PM
Original message
 
anyone have a kid drop out of high school? or were you one?

did the kid stay up late and refuse/fail to get out of bed?

there is solid science on circadian rhythms, and how these internal clocks turn toward a late night cycle in adolescent kids, especially boys. it is even harder on kids in selective enrollment schools, which typically require a longer commute. i have 2 boys who dropped out of high school because of it.

i have heard that there are some schools/districts that have changed the school day to align better with the kids brains. i am contemplating making this a bit of a cause here in chicago. there are a lot of sleep docs here, including some specializing in kids.

i have talked to one in regard to my own kid, but she said she had not heard about any large scale actions based on this science.

but it seems to me that just changing the day to go noon to 6 could keep a lot of kids in school. my older son became so sleep deprived that he really fell apart, and had major personality changes. i felt like our choices were between a diploma and a suicide.

so, i wonder what the experience of folks here is. tell me your stories.

ejpoeta  (1000+ posts)        Mon Jun-22-09 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
 
1. i know schools that operate in blocks or something like that where some kids go earlier and some later. I have never dropped out of school except withdrawing to move back to NY to finish there. I got a nice lecture from the principal. i was nice enough to let him finish his schpeal before i explained to him that the commute from ny would be too much. why would i quit halfway through my senior year??

i think my sister quit... after failing 10th grade 3 times. I don't know about kids changing sleep wake cycles... my oldest is 10. i hope that doesn't happen. she doesn't like to get up in the morning sometimes, and she missed the bus. once was all it took. i had her doing housework all day. told her that was her fate if she missed the bus again.

I do think that all kids learn differently. and i suppose as with anyone else, some are morning people and some do better later. I think it serves everyone to work to a student's strengths... but they will have to conform to society at some point also. so....

mopinko  (1000+ posts)        Mon Jun-22-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
 
4. they don't have to conform at some point- they outgrow it.

and conforming in this case means overcoming your biology, like insisting that kids should all conform to the average height of their gender.

kids get pretty bent out of shape because of this. i wonder how many suicides result from this.

ejpoeta  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-23-09 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
 
24. i know that they were talking about teens lack of sleep in terms of health, weight problems and suidical thoughts. They found that adolescents who stayed up til midnight didn't get enough sleep and had higher instances of these things. I think that kids have A LOT put on them. I mean, here the early bus comes by at ten to seven in the morning. I think school starts at 8am for the high school. Then they get out at 3pm, and have a crapload of homework thrust upon them. Some teens have some form of job as well. And if you are right about their sleep/wake cycle, I am sure that just makes things all the worse.

When i meant 'conform' I meant more along the lines of most work being in the day. But, they could get a 2nd or third shift job somewhere. I worked 2nd shift for awhile many many years ago. It was rough for me, as I am a morning person and am tired by the afternoon. But when I worked up in scottsville, and it took me an hour to get to work and an hour home and i had to leave at like 5:30am to get to work, that was rough. Towards the end of working there I had a lot of trouble staying awake while driving. Sleep deprivation can be dangerous. I ended up leaving that job partially because I was afraid I would hurt someone and partly because i was just working to pay the sitter. But imagine being a teen who doesn't have a choice.

I know that my 10 year old had chorus twice a week before school and I could either get her up at 6 to get on the bus or take her into the school at 8am... Since I only lived a few minutes from the school I chose to do the latter. I wanted to make sure she got enough sleep. Already I have problems getting her to go to bed on time at night and we have a pretty strict bedtime. Though I am guessing that the amount of light still coming in the window has more to do with it. She'll still be up at 10pm!! when I put her to bed at 8:30!! Now that school is over I'll let her stay up til 9 probably. But she was still up at 6am this morning... though she didn't HAVE to be. any other day i would have to fight with her to get her up. but i digress.

HeresyLives (1000+ posts)      Mon Jun-22-09 10:59 PM
Response to Original message

2. Where I live in Ontario, Canada teens sleep in, because of this problem. The schools just start the day later for them. So far it's worked out really well.

Boys and girls...it's being a teenager that's the problem. Their brains are changing and growing.

mopinko  (1000+ posts)        Mon Jun-22-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
 
8. leave it to the canadians to deal with this sensibly. this the part that bugs me about it- all it takes to fix it is a little change. no money. just a simple adjustment.

and yes, girls have it, too.

Joe the Liberal  (1000+ posts)      Mon Jun-22-09 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
 
3. No I never dropped out.....

Although I know quite a few people who did but I don't think it was because they lacked sleep. I do remember I hated having to get up that early to go to school I would almost fall asleep in class. It made it hard to focus on anything other than trying to stay awake but it was mostly in the morning. From noon on forward I was wide awake, tired but awake, it's just something you gotta deal with, I managed to pull through alright.

CTyankee  (1000+ posts)      Mon Jun-22-09 11:10 PM
Response to Original message

6. My son couldn't graduate with his class he was so negligent. We were in despair.

He wanted to be in a famous rock band. That was his ambition.

Well, he completely turned around. I am happy to tell you he graduated from an Ivy League school (Columbia), then to law school and is now a senior prosecutor for the Brooklyn NY D.A.

Never give up!

It's an enormous bonfire, so now, only the Primitives of Prominence:

tularetom  (1000+ posts)      Mon Jun-22-09 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
 
7. My brother didn't drop out but he was damn near kicked out because he was constantly late for school and kept falling asleep in class. I've been a morning person my entire life, getting up at 4 or 5 even when I didn't have to but I can remember more than once getting up while he was still awake from the night before, reading or out in the garage working on something. He never went to bed before midnight.

Somehow he managed to get through HS and actually went on to get a masters degree but he hasn't changed. He has had several relationships break up because the women could not deal with his odd daily schedule and even now at age 63 and retired he is usually awake at one or two every night and doesn't even begin to get up until 9 or 10 in the morning.

tularetom  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun-23-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
 
19. After he got out of the navy he went to work as a park ranger and eventually became a district manager for the state park system. But he fought with oversleeping his entire work life. He would get speeding tickets trying to get to work when he was running late in the morning and he admitted to me he would never try and schedule an important meeting before noon because he had no attention span until he fully woke up; As it was he took early retirement. Retirement seems to suit him just fine. He owns a couple of rentals which he takes care of himself and he can stay up every night and watch all the late night shows on TV.

His latest girlfriend couldn't deal with it so she split about five years ago. But I don't think he minds all that much.

There must be a story behind that last sentence, above.

The silly primitive:

SoCalDem  (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-23-09 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
 
25. Oldest son did not graduate..now makes mid six-figure income

2nd son was a total goof-off flake..did not graduate.. is a crane operator for a steel company

Youngest graduated summa cum laude 4.2 something GPA..refused to go to college..has his own business..

go figure

The mountain man primitive, all bent out of shape because Pa Kettle in the White House is going to tamper with his social security:

ThomWV  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun-23-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
 
42. I dropped out in the 11th grade, ended up with a Masters in Economics

Never got a GED either.

[jukin]

For DUmmys there is always another reason that their personal choices screw up their lives.

[AllosaursRus]

How about kickin' their ass and telling them to go to bed!!!!!

Good grief!!!!!! Both my kids had no problem graduating. I made them hit the sack by 10.

[delilahmused]

So now they're blaming circadian rhythms for being wimpy parents? Wow! Why weren't circadian rhythms a problem in the last 50 or 60 years? If it's really that big of a concern why not just homeschool. Then mo and the boys can set their own hours.

Cindie

[lastparker]

Can liberals think up anything else to screw up our kids?  Jeez.

[AllosaursRus]

So now they're blaming circadian rhythms for being wimpy parents? Wow! Why weren't circadian rhythms a problem in the last 50 or 60 years? If it's really that big of a concern why not just homeschool. Then mo and the boys can set their own hours.

Cindie

Not only that, but the curriculum has gone so far down hill in public schools, it bears no resemblance to even the 1960's!

[Ralph Wiggum]

ThomWV  (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun-23-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
 
42. I dropped out in the 11th grade, ended up with a Masters in Economics

There is not a single person of the 5,000 or so who post at the DUmp who have a masters in Economics.

[jtyangel]

Gee I dropped out and I can only wish that it was because my 'sleep cycles were off'. Is there anything they won't make an excuse for?

[Karin]

Ralph, I second your BS call.  For one thing, universities don't just let people walk in the door and sit down to class.  

I've seen this Mopinko talk about her kids before.  She's super-permissive, as liberal parents are, and as a result has nothing but heartache and stress from the boys.  She said the girl is a good kid, though.  For how long?  I'm squarely in the June and Ward Cleaver camp of parenting.  

[GOBUCKS]

So now they're blaming circadian rhythms for being wimpy parents? Wow! Why weren't circadian rhythms a problem in the last 50 or 60 years?

Most DUmmies will tell you that circadian rhythms are a problem, but only once every seventeen years.