Author Topic: DU: Another blow to public education, another step down the path towards privati  (Read 3259 times)

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Offline Lord Undies

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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5904176

You should read this DU thread for yourself.  I was mesmerized by the flow of contridiction no Little Goon seemed to recognize.  It reads like an ad for Liberal Hypocrisy & Intellectual Dishonesty.

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MadHound (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-23-09 08:55 AM
Original message
Another blow to public education, another step down the path towards privatized education
   
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Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 09:02 AM by MadHound
"WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court on Monday shifted the landscape for students with learning disabilities, saying parents can in many instances bypass public school special education programs and be reimbursed for private school tuition instead.

The court ruled 6-3 in favor of a teenage boy from Oregon whose parents sought to force their local public school district to pay the $5,200 a month it cost to send their son to a private school.

Under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, the nation's special education students are entitled to a "free and appropriate public education." Federal law calls for school districts to reimburse students or their families for education costs when public schools do not have services that address or fulfill the students' needs.

But schools have argued that the law says parents of special education students must give public special education programs a chance before seeking reimbursement for private school tuition. The Forest Grove, Ore., School District said the parents were ineligible for reimbursement because their son had not been in public special education classes.

A majority at the Supreme Court disagreed."

<http://www.seattlepi.com/national/1154ap_us_supreme_cou... >

In other words parents don't have to have a diagnosed learning disability (this student's disability was never officially diagnosed. Nor are they now required to find if the services offered by the public school system are effective for their child. Nope, they can simply send their child to a private school (in this case it was a private boarding school), and then demand that the public school system pay for the tuition (in this case tuition was $65,000 for one year)

This is absurd, and it's simply another step on the road to bankrupting our public school system and replacing it with a taxpayer funded private school system. I fully agree with the ideals of the IDEA act, but the fact of the matter is that the student should be required to have an official diagnosis, and also at least give the public education system a shot for one year.

But instead we have the corporatists on the SCOTUS continue to advance corporate education, at the expense of public education. Just blithely rolling down the road towards a two tiered education system.


....and it goes from there.....with twists and turns and cartwheels.....such as, public schools are awful but giving people a chance to get out is more awful.....DAMN CORPORATE SCHOOLS!!!!!!......underfunded.....overfunded.....PRETZEL KNOTS of Little Goon illogic......

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MadHound (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-23-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Yep, part of the ongoing assault on public schools,
   An assault that has been ratcheted up the past few years, what with NCLB, cases like this, and now Arne Duncan heading education.

We're headed for a two tier education system, private for those who can afford it, public for the rest[/b], and the sad thing is that neither system will adequately meet the needs of the students or teachers.

The dumbing down of America progresses apace.

Headed for?  I think it's been that way since, well, always.  Private schools are not a new invention. 

Offline thundley4

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Two early replies in the thread and they almost seem worthy of a tombstone.
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AngryAmish (1000+ posts)             Tue Jun-23-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. The Chicago Public Schools exist to serve their employees, not the kids
   
They get plenty of money. Not that you would ever here that from the employees - they have an insatiable lust for more money and less work.
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Odin2005   (1000+ posts)             Tue Jun-23-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. If my experiences are any indicator that is the same for most school.
   
If that pisses off many DUers I don't really give a crap.



Offline The Village Idiot

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Wow, that was unexpected honesty from a couple of posters.

What next, criminals should be punished?

Offline Wineslob

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MadHound (1000+ posts)        Tue Jun-23-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Yep, part of the ongoing assault on public schools,
   An assault that has been ratcheted up the past few years, what with NCLB, cases like this, and now Arne Duncan heading education.

We're headed for a two tier education system, private for those who can afford it, public for the rest, and the sad thing is that neither system will adequately meet the needs of the students or teachers.

The dumbing down of America progresses apace.

No, shit-for-brains, the teachers unions are screaming bloody murder over Charter Schools (here at least). But guess what? Parents, like me, can't get our kid OUT of the "public" school system fast enough (charters are still "public" but have different regulations, and are still "free"). The difference between the grades my child held in the regular school and the charter, were astounding. She went from a barely C level to straight A's.  :hyper:

Oh, guess what asswipe, the "dumbing down" is being CAUSED by the public system! The only thing the "regular" school taught was a bunch of bullshit "how to pass the State MANDATED testing" classes. Otherwise the school would lose some funding depending on their "score". So in the end the school cared MORE about money than students.


Fracking idiot.



« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 09:32:24 AM by Wineslob »
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Offline Karin

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Madhound says something stupid:

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And since private schools don't have to meet the same standards as public schools, the special ed programs don't have to be up to the standards of public schools.

How about free market forces?  If you're running a crappy school, you won't be in business long. 

Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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We're headed for a two tier education system, private for those who can afford it, public for the rest
Is this a back-handed slap at Obama's proposed healthcare plan that supposedly offers a public option while "guaranteeing" private insurance remains accessible based on the choice of the insured/employer?
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Offline AprilRazz

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Madhound says something stupid:

How about free market forces?  If you're running a crappy school, you won't be in business long. 
No the special ed programs in private schools are usually better.
As the parent of a special needs kid I can't even begin to tell you about the fights I had with the public school system to get my kid in the place he needed to be. But putting him in a private school is simply above my means.
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Offline franksolich

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Now wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Quote
Madhound says something stupid:

And since private schools don't have to meet the same standards as public schools, the special ed programs don't have to be up to the standards of public schools.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression private schools HAVE to meet the same standards as public schools, and in fact usually far exceed those standards.
apres moi, le deluge

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Offline Lord Undies

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Now wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression private schools HAVE to meet the same standards as public schools, and in fact usually far exceed those standards.

Yes, Frank, and every bit of history proves it.  It is a ridiculous thing to say, even for a Little Goon.  Really now, how could privates schools stay in business if they were inferior to public schools?  People do not pay extra for less.  Friends of Sidwell, the wonderful private institution to which Chelsea Clinton, and now those two kids who go by the last name of Obama, belong, is not be known for its mediocrity.   

Offline GOBUCKS

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In urban areas, most people who can afford private schools have sent their kids to them since the onset of forced busing in the 70s. Forced busing did more to promote segregation than any southern state legislature ever did.

Offline franksolich

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In urban areas, most people who can afford private schools have sent their kids to them since the onset of forced busing in the 70s. Forced busing did more to promote segregation than any southern state legislature ever did.

Probably.

One of the best books about the issue that I ever read was Common Ground, about the Boston school-bussing issue of the late 1970s.

The affluent Bostonian Democrats, liberals, and primitives wanted to keep their kids' schools lily-white, but something had to give.  So they imposed desegregation on strictly the white working-class and black neighborhoods.

I think those who preach, should first practice, but such hypocrites never pay attention to me.
apres moi, le deluge

Milo Yiannopoulos "It has been obvious since 2016 that Trump carries an anointing of some kind. My American friends, are you so blind to reason, and deaf to Heaven? Can he do all this, and cannot get a crown? This man is your King. Coronate him, and watch every devil shriek, and every demon howl."

Offline USA4ME

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Now wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression private schools HAVE to meet the same standards as public schools, and in fact usually far exceed those standards.

Undies is correct.  Besides this stupid statement...

Quote from:
Madhound

And since private schools don't have to meet the same standards as public schools, the special ed programs don't have to be up to the standards of public schools.

... makes no sense.  The complaint is that people are moving their kids from public to private because the public schools aren't giving the child what they need.  Yet here this doofus is claiming that private schools have lower standards and thus, by extention, less to offer.

.
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Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 09:02 AM by MadHound

...The court ruled 6-3 in favor of a teenage boy from Oregon whose parents sought to force their local public school district to pay the $5,200 a month it cost to send their son to a private school.

But schools have argued that the law says parents of special education students must give public special education programs a chance before seeking reimbursement for private school tuition. The Forest Grove, Ore., School District said the parents were ineligible for reimbursement because their son had not been in public special education classes.

In other words parents don't have to have a diagnosed learning disability (this student's disability was never officially diagnosed. Nor are they now required to find if the services offered by the public school system are effective for their child. Nope, they can simply send their child to a private school (in this case it was a private boarding school), and then demand that the public school system pay for the tuition (in this case tuition was $65,000 for one year)

Obviously, math wasn't this DUmbass' strong subject.  $5,200 X 9 = $46,800/year, not the $65,000 claimed.

Actually, $5,200 X 12 = $62,400
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Offline GOBUCKS

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... makes no sense.  The complaint is that people are moving their kids from public to private because the public schools aren't giving the child what they need.  Yet here this doofus is claiming that private schools have lower standards and thus, by extention, less to offer.
Sorry, you misinterpret what they are saying. When a socialist speaks of primary or secondary education, "lower standards" means the absence of a teachers' union. Nothing more or less.

Offline Lanie

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The way it works for kids with disabilities is that they have an Individualized Education Team. They decide the student's educational goals and how to meet them. It is the job of the public school system to meet those standards. If they can't, then then the parents have the right to seek it elsewhere and be reimbursed. IOW, if the public schools want to be given a chance in certain cases, they better meet standards.
 
It was learning more about this system that encouraged me to consider school vouchers more. If kids with disabilities are entitled to this, then why shouldn't kids without disabilities be entitled? My only concern is that I worry that vouchers won't be enough to help the kids.
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Offline Lanie

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No, shit-for-brains, the teachers unions are screaming bloody murder over Charter Schools (here at least). But guess what? Parents, like me, can't get our kid OUT of the "public" school system fast enough (charters are still "public" but have different regulations, and are still "free"). The difference between the grades my child held in the regular school and the charter, were astounding. She went from a barely C level to straight A's.  :hyper:

Oh, guess what asswipe, the "dumbing down" is being CAUSED by the public system! The only thing the "regular" school taught was a bunch of bullshit "how to pass the State MANDATED testing" classes. Otherwise the school would lose some funding depending on their "score". So in the end the school cared MORE about money than students.


Fracking idiot.





IMO, you can blame the NCLB act for the boldened part. I've heard several complaints from teachers that they feel like they can't teach because it's all about the test. As for Charter schools, I'm open minded to those ideas and I am very excited about them. Them and Magnet schools.
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Offline USA4ME

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NCLB was a nice concept, especially in school districts where the kids were being neglected by the teachers, basically being passed from grade to grade just to eventually get them out.  With NCLB, it in some degree at least forced their hand and made them teach something.  And it was suppose to help weed out some of the bad teachers and bad schools.

Problem is when all you have to do is teach them to pass the test, then that's what teachers will do. I don't know what percentage do that, but human nature is "what do I have to do to make it to pay day and quitting time," and no doubt teachers can be the same way.  You've got to watch some of the private schools, too, because they'll just teach to score high on the SAT.

The answer is hiring conscientious teachers who are driven to see their students actually learn and having a school board that makes it easy to weed out lousy teachers, but it'll never be perfect.  I do like the idea of vouchers since it's unlikely to make things any worse and at least the parents who do care can shop around.

.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:15:55 PM by USA4ME »
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Offline Lord Undies

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IMO, you can blame the NCLB act for the boldened part. I've heard several complaints from teachers that they feel like they can't teach because it's all about the test. As for Charter schools, I'm open minded to those ideas and I am very excited about them. Them and Magnet schools.

I'm sure you meant, "They and Magnet Schools."   :innocent:

NCLB has done what was intended.  Overall, teacher weren't teaching and there was no focus in the public schools, except for ongoing social drivel.  NCLB, as flawed as it is in one direction, is just what was needed for another direction.  It got the focus back on academics.  The complainers have no one to blame but themselves.

If a school is too busy teaching "to the test", there is less time to pump the little minds made of mush full of socialistic unusable crap.  Yes, the wonders and enlightenment of homosexuality had to take a backseat to the Dead White Men.

Ted "Fatass" Kennedy had no idea what he was doing when he drafted and endorsed NCLB.  He was roped and then doped.   President George W. Bush is brilliant!

Offline MrsSmith

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At least NCLB forced schools to meet some standard.  The school system that so badly mucked up my son's education had to jump through hoops to get up to Nebraska standards.   :evillaugh:  I'm VERY grateful, as I have a grandson in that scummy system now.

Having seen the differences from one school to another, and from one state to another, I definitely support NCLB.
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Offline crockspot

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My teacher friend teaches at a charter school in inner-city Youngstown OH. The charter board consists mainly of white Presbyterian pastors, Jesus is mentioned by name now and then in class, and Halloween is not celebrated at the school. The parents (usually there is only one parent) of the poor black children of Youngstown fight tooth and nail to get their kids into that school, because it demonstrably offers the best elementary education in the city.

Offline Lanie

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I'm sure you meant, "They and Magnet Schools."   :innocent:

NCLB has done what was intended.  Overall, teacher weren't teaching and there was no focus in the public schools, except for ongoing social drivel.  NCLB, as flawed as it is in one direction, is just what was needed for another direction.  It got the focus back on academics.  The complainers have no one to blame but themselves.

If a school is too busy teaching "to the test", there is less time to pump the little minds made of mush full of socialistic unusable crap.  Yes, the wonders and enlightenment of homosexuality had to take a backseat to the Dead White Men.

Ted "Fatass" Kennedy had no idea what he was doing when he drafted and endorsed NCLB.  He was roped and then doped.   President George W. Bush is brilliant!

I agree about the part of holding teachers to higher standards and that it is necessary. The problem with NCLB is that once a child fails a test and is held back, there still are not enough resources to help the child. Let me give one example. A student I was working with was getting some more simplified instruction during class (while the others were participating in regular Reading instruction). It's not enough. The student needs some intense, one on one instruction to catch her up to the other kids. They're going to hold her back in her grade. I told them straight out it won't do any good if she can't receive the instruction she needs. Since she hasn't been diagnosed with a disability, she has no IEP. I'm afraid that she'll be given the same instruction next year that wasn't helping her much this year. I gave them ideas on instruction that appeared to be working with her. I don't know if they'll listen to me though because I was only a volunteer.

Here's another problem with the law. It currently says that a school receives federal funding if their overall success level is of a certain amount. At the same time, most students with disabilities are expected to take and pass grade level tests when most of them are not able to. NCLB does not currently take that into a lot of consideration. It's meant to help bridge the gap between those with disabilities and those without. I don't see where it has done that yet. I'll say this much. If the students are expected to take grade level tests, then they need more intense instruction to try to catch them up. A lot of these kids are grade levels behind, but are expected to take the grade level test.

People often say it was good for Bush to involve Kennedy in NCLB because he involved Democrats. I agree, but here's the thing. How many teachers, administrators, and others in Education were involved?

As for teaching all about the white men, I'd be happy to. Honestly though, can we also teach about the women and people who aren't white? Oh, and can we please tell the truth about the white men? Columbus was not the founder of the New World. Schools, please stop telling this lie. I think that we were told a lot of stuff from the pov of America so we could never question the country's government. We were hardly ever told anything bad. I didn't have a History teacher tell me the truth about some of this stuff until 11th Grade. She was one of the few teachers that ever really fussed at me in school. lol. I think I respected her for that because few teachers spoke to me that way. lol. Anyway, I also respected her because she was one of the few teachers I had before college who spoke about the other side of things. She was the one who told us that Jackson was in on the Trail of Tears. She discussed a lot of bloody stuff that makes one question things. She didn't do it to get kids to hate America though. She did it to get kids interested in History. Meanwhile, she always spoke about our civic duties. She spoke about what it meant to vote, to get involved in politics, etc. She even told us about how a student was involved in the Republican Party in Lexington if we were interested. Of course, I don't think she mentioned MLK's Socialist leanings. I found that out later.

I don't think that telling everything involved in America decreases patriotism. I think kids can handle the truth. If they don't love a country because of things in the past that aren't always pretty, then they need to grow up some.


Yes, I meant to say they.  :innocent:
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Offline GOBUCKS

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There is no evidence that results would improve if the taxpayers hired one teacher for every student. Many union teachers are simply worthless, like DUmmy greenbriar.

But few people send their kids to private schools to avoid public school teachers. They spend huge sums to keep their kids safe from public school students.

Offline Duke Nukum

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IMO, you can blame the NCLB act for the boldened part. I've heard several complaints from teachers that they feel like they can't teach because it's all about the test. As for Charter schools, I'm open minded to those ideas and I am very excited about them. Them and Magnet schools.

IMO, schools have been sliding downhill at a faster and faster pace since Jimmy Carter created the Dept. of Education.  ECLB maybe have given the public schools a little push toward a faster collapse but it was already past the point of no return at that point.
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Offline MrsSmith

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I don't think that telling everything involved in America decreases patriotism. I think kids can handle the truth. If they don't love a country because of things in the past that aren't always pretty, then they need to grow up some.


Yes, I meant to say they.  :innocent:

A Patriot's History of the United States: From Columbus's Great Discovery to the War on Terror

Amazingly enough, a huge majority of "History" teachers find it "necessary" to make up all kinds of "facts" about "the ugly past."  They also find it "necessary" to carefully avoid mention of many not-so-ugly truths.   ::) 

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Returning to the question of the author's bias, it is clear that the reader is getting a different viewpoint than is usual. However, this normally comes out in challenges to the conventional wisdom backed by fresh analysis of the historical data. It is plain that the author has done his homework, as evidenced by some 70 pages of endnotes and citations. The author does occasionally slip into conservative editorializing, particularly toward the end of the book as he gets into his personal frame of reference, which is something that I find unacceptable in this or any other history book. Just the facts, please. Still, this volume provides some much needed balance to the historical debate that has been largely dominated by left-wing academics. After reading this book, it is fair to say with the venerable Paul Harvey, "now you know the REST of the story."

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Offline Splashdown

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In most cases, private schools get the job of education done better and cheaper than their public counterparts.
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