subway cat in favor of capital punishment

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.org/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5802959

Oh my.

The new punidiot of Skins's island, although I'm not so sure he's not a mole.

armyowalgreens  (925 posts)      Mon Jun-08-09 01:10 AM
Original message

What is justice?

I think this is an extremely relevant topic because we are always talking about injustices in the world. But what is Justice?

According to Webster, justice can be

“ 1 a: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments”

I think that it is extremely important to focus on the phrase “the maintenance...of what is just” because it really defines the purpose of seeking out justice for wrongs. The purpose of seeking justice is to maintain what we consider to be a proper ethical system. In other words, we don't want people running around committing crimes.

Of course you could look even further into that by saying that the reason why we seek to keep a “proper ethical system” is so that we may preserve humanity and happiness (or simply the lack of suffering). So, in the end, the reason why we seek justice is so we can prevent humans from suffering. We do not seek justice because of a higher power. Justice should function purely on logical grounds.

There also needs to be a clear line established between justice and vengeance. Vengeance is the infliction of punishment or suffering because of some wrong. An act of vengeance is not taken with regard to how that act betters society. It is not taken with regard to anyone else's welfare. It is a SELFISH ACT.

An example of vengeance would be the father of a rape victim hunting down the rapist and killing him or her because of his anger. It is an action without regard for the rapists welfare or the welfare of society. It an irrational action based on anger.

That means that vengeance can never truly be just because justice is acting with more than just regard for ones self. Justice is a selfless action. It takes into account the welfare of everyone.

That is why the desire to lock up a 14 year old and 19 year old for the rest of their lives because of their crimes is not justice. It is vengeance.

That is why capital punishment is not justice. It is vengeance.

True justice would mean that we try as best we can to change the way that 14 and 19 year old thinks. True justice would be trying to change the way a murderer thinks.

It doesn't just take into account the welfare of the perpetrators. It also means that we care about the welfare of everyone in society. Who knows what the 14 and 19 year old are capable of? If they can turn their lives around, they can contribute to the betterment of man. The same goes for a murderer or any other criminal.

I am not saying that all criminals can change their lives. What I am saying is that we must give them the opportunity to do so. To do otherwise would be unjust.

If we truly want to function as a just society, we need to rethink the way we treat everyone.

There's some squibble-squabbling among the primitives, and then the subway cat chimes in to add her two bits, the two bits provided by the taxpayers of course:

undergroundpanther  (1000+ posts)        Mon Jun-08-09 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
 
6. some people cannot be trusted in their own bodies. It's sad but true.

Take pedophiles. They do not reform because they don't see anything wrong with the horrors they perpetuate.They think it is"love" and society has a hang up. Sociopaths as well they cannot be reformed.They can fool people into being used like a tool to get what the sociopath wants tho.

I see the death penalty as a tool designed for a simple purpose, to stop one criminal.

A criminal that refuses to change,refuses to admit himself as the problem, a criminal whom cannot be trusted to not harm others with his body or exploit his freedom by ruining others lives in secret.

Sometimes the death penalty is just ,and it is the moral thing one must do,if you think deeper than the usual moral squeamish arguments on all sides that never seem to get past each others vengeance and misplaced pity..

Jails are caging criminals 23 hours a day in solitary confinement cells. That is indeed torture. To me being a PSTD survivor, death is preferable to day in day out locked in solitary. I know by personal experience being locked up in a little room day after day is indeed torture.Torture turns into a psychiatric injury that torments a person .Even if the incidents are long over with.Traumas can be re-triggered into the reality of the survivor and for the survivor it will feel the same as they day it happened.

Torture is ALWAYS wrong.Torture has no purpose except as a tool of vengeance,domination or exploitation.

Death however is sometimes required for some criminals,because they cannot be trusted within their own lives.

But right now I do not think the state or many people in this country as well has the moral wisdom and the courage to execute criminals in a just way.

DU AdBot (1000+ posts)      Tue Jun 09th 2009, 09:39 AM
Response to Original message

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[Vagabond]

Subway Cat arrives at a coorect conclusion but tortures logic getting there.

The reason we have jails has nothing to do with Justice whatever we may call it.  It is about the right of a society to provide reasonable domestic security to it's citizens.  Locking a man up for fifteen years for armed robbery of a convenience store is not justice.  However, unless he escapes, he is not a danger to society for those fifteen years.  Which of course leads to another question to the original poster.  Has the government failed if, during the course of attempted rehabilitation, escapes his detention and murders again, has the government failed in it's duty to defend it's citizens?

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

I see the death penalty as a tool designed for a simple purpose, to stop one criminal.

A criminal that refuses to change,refuses to admit himself as the problem, a criminal whom cannot be trusted to not harm others with his body or exploit his freedom by ruining others lives in secret.

Lack of rehabilitation may prove insufficient grounds for exacting the ultimate punishment. What of the incorrigible thief? We may not permit thievery but few among us would condone death for theives because we reason among ourselves that while they may be criminals they do not deserve death.

This is why I subscribe to retributive punishment theory over those punishments designed to deter or rehabilitate. The latter two can lead to even greater crimes.

[Sam Adams]

The reason we have jails has nothing to do with Justice whatever we may call it.  It is about the right of a society to provide reasonable domestic security to it's citizens.  Locking a man up for fifteen years for armed robbery of a convenience store is not justice.

I disagree. The government certainly should protect its citizens, but it also should administer justice.

[AllosaursRus]

**** it! Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out! There's nothing worse than a thief who will not work for what he wants or needs. If you ask the church-goin' old lady down the street who had some thug break into her house and steel things she took a lifetime to aquire, she'd tell you to fry the bastard! I agree with her!

Sorry, but I run into quite a few low-lifes that are doing nothing but a waste of breathable air!

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

**** it! Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out! There's nothing worse than a thief who will not work for what he wants or needs. If you ask the church-goin' old lady down the street who had some thug break into her house and steel things she took a lifetime to aquire, she'd tell you to fry the bastard! I agree with her!

Sorry, but I run into quite a few low-lifes that are doing nothing but a waste of breathable air!

I could be wrong* but the Biblical prescription for theft is to repay 4x the value of the thing stolen if it is recovered or 8x its value if it could not be recovered due to resale or being damaged.

Obviously many a thief could not afford this debt but the remedy for any debt was indetured servitude...ditto able-bodied welfare cases.

I rather like this idea because locking the thief in jail does nothing to ameloriate the injury done to the victim, all it does is add further economic damage to the balance of society that must pay the cost of incarceration.



* - If I'm correct can someone point me to the verses.

[AllosaursRus]

I could be wrong* but the Biblical prescription for theft is to repay 4x the value of the thing stolen if it is recovered or 8x its value if it could not be recovered due to resale or being damaged.

Obviously many a thief could not afford this debt but the remedy for any debt was indetured servitude...ditto able-bodied welfare cases.

I rather like this idea because locking the thief in jail does nothing to ameloriate the injury done to the victim, all it does is add further economic damage to the balance of society that must pay the cost of incarceration.



* - If I'm correct can someone point me to the verses.

works for me! At least the old lady would get something back! Don't know about the verse, never was much of a biblical scholar, left that up to my Dad. He was a part-time preacher for our local Baptist church. Unfortunately he was called up a few years ago.

[Airwolf]

**** it! Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out! There's nothing worse than a thief who will not work for what he wants or needs. If you ask the church-goin' old lady down the street who had some thug break into her house and steel things she took a lifetime to aquire, she'd tell you to fry the bastard! I agree with her!

Sorry, but I run into quite a few low-lifes that are doing nothing but a waste of breathable air!

And what pray tell are you doing hanging out with Democrats? 

[AllosaursRus]

And what pray tell are you doing hanging out with Democrats? 

Takin' their MONEY!!!!!!!

[jukin]

That is why the desire to lock up a 14 year old and 19 year old for the rest of their lives because of their crimes is not justice. It is vengeance.

Yep, we should cut off their hand or foot or genitals, maybe hang or stone them to death,...  And there 1.5 Billion people that think like that but we are the intolerant.

[Vagabond]

I could be wrong* but the Biblical prescription for theft is to repay 4x the value of the thing stolen if it is recovered or 8x its value if it could not be recovered due to resale or being damaged.

Obviously many a thief could not afford this debt but the remedy for any debt was indetured servitude...ditto able-bodied welfare cases.

I rather like this idea because locking the thief in jail does nothing to ameloriate the injury done to the victim, all it does is add further economic damage to the balance of society that must pay the cost of incarceration.



* - If I'm correct can someone point me to the verses.

That is a better fit for what I think justice is.  Of course, I would be in favor of executions for violent crimes such as aggravated rape if I thought it would do anything more than result in more dead victims.