Obama calls US a Muslim nation

[Eupher]

Salaam,

Screw the CIA "Fact Book". Anything that the government produces as "fact", I immediately question.

Take a look at this:

Box: The CAIR Population Estimate

According to an April 2001 survey released by four Islamic organizations, 2 million American Muslims "associate with a mosque."101 It then took this number and multiplied it by 3-3½ to find a total U.S. Muslim population of 6-7 million. But where did the multiple of 3-3½ come from? The principal author of the study, Ihsan Bagby, himself admitted to the Los Angeles Times that taking this step was based on "guesswork."102

There are other problems with the study. It assumes that percentages for regular mosque participants are the same as percentage of the Muslim population.103 Thus, if 30 percent of the regular mosque-goers are African Americans, it concludes that 30 percent of all U.S. Muslims must be African-American. But mosque attendance and general ethnicity do not necessarily tally. Some ethnicities attend mosque more than the average, others less.

The survey finds that only 0.7 percent of the total number of regular mosque participants are Iranians, or just above the figure given for the tiny numbers of Hispanic converts. If one uncritically accepts the CAIR total of 2 million mosque participants, just 14,000 Iranians go to mosque. Using the survey's rule-of-thumb— i.e., multiplying mosque participants by roughly three to arrive at a "total" figure—we can extrapolate that the total number of Iranians living in the United States is under 50,000. This is clearly nonsense: according to the 1990 U.S. Census—an age ago, but the latest figures available—there were 54,114 Iranians residing in Los Angeles county alone.

These methodological problems raise questions about the entire study. Unfortunately, one must conclude that the total number of American Muslims remains shrouded in mystery.

Alexander Rose, Ph.D., is the Washington bureau chief for Canada's National Post.

The CAIR bullshit figure of 7 million (and that was the figure quoted by Lord Zero in his Cairo speech) is predicated on "guestimates." Who woulda thunk, considering it was a CAIR number to begin with?

The above article is linked here, so that you can check the numerous endnotes:

Daniel Pipes' Middle East Forum

[Salaam]

 

Do you guys read before you start typing, or do you just see "salaam" and go on a rampage?

First comment on the subject:

if we did have 7 million Muslims, which is close, That would mean we have more Muslims than the following countries

"If" in the context used in this sentence according to grammatical rules which I thought adults would understand, means implied as in, I'm not agreeing with or denying this metric.

For the record, I don't believe there are 7 million Muslims in the US, but none of you asked, you just blew your tops....  I would say more like 4-5 million and even that is stretching it....

Moving right along...

The point was not does 7 million Muslims make the US a Muslim country, that's stupid, as someone pointed out for no apparent reason because it wasn't my original point in the first place, percentage is how you determine the make up of a country or better yet, whether or not that country has a state religion.

Many of the countries I listed are not Muslim majority countries either. (I forgot to bold the ones that did, my bad) but it was only like 8 of them.

There is a huge difference between stating that there are so many Muslims in America that compared to other countries in which Muslims are the majority we have more and America is a majority Muslim country.

Who in the hell said America was a majority Muslim country when 74%-76% of America is Christian?

Why argue just to argue?

The comment in context means that there are more Muslims in the US than some Muslim countries, the entire point in even broader context was illustrated in his speech where he talked against the stereotypes about America.  He pointed to the fact that there are so many Muslim in America to highlight the need for religious freedom in the Middle East.

if you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we’d be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world

To me that plainly states that if you took the American Muslim population out of America and made it a separate country it would be as large as other Muslim countries.

How the hell someone got America is a Muslim country out of that, I will never know, maybe if I switched parties and watched more Fox News, I will learn the "real" English language!

[TheSarge]

Do you guys read before you start typing, or do you just see "salaam" and go on a rampage?

Do you see any of us reply to you and immediately start your smoke generator?

How the hell someone got America is a Muslim country out of that,

Ask the President.

I will never know, maybe if I switched parties and watched more Fox News, I will learn the "real" English language!

Maybe if you stopped acting like a typical DU troll you might learn something.

[Salaam]

So a "troll" is one who doesn't toe the line huh?

Dissension is not allowed on this board?  I guess I need to read the rules.

[Peter3_1]

Wiccans are , proportionally, growing as rapidly as Islam in the USA. sOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

[TheSarge]

So a "troll" is one who doesn't toe the line huh?

Never said that now did I?  

Dissension is not allowed on this board?  I guess I need to read the rules.

Never said that either.  Perhaps you just need to learn to read period.  

All you're doing is coming in here and posting massively long paragraphs that amount to a whole lot of nothing.

And fixed to either end of your sleep inducing tomes are the same kind of snarky taunts and insults you wag a finger at us about.

Your behavior is troll like...never once said you actually were a troll.

If you can't figure out the difference...ask one of the Navy guys in here...they can break it down Barney style for you.

[Eupher]

Do you guys read before you start typing, or do you just see "salaam" and go on a rampage?

First comment on the subject:

"If" in the context used in this sentence according to grammatical rules which I thought adults would understand, means implied as in, I'm not agreeing with or denying this metric.

For the record, I don't believe there are 7 million Muslims in the US, but none of you asked, you just blew your tops....  I would say more like 4-5 million and even that is stretching it....

Moving right along...

The point was not does 7 million Muslims make the US a Muslim country, that's stupid, as someone pointed out for no apparent reason because it wasn't my original point in the first place, percentage is how you determine the make up of a country or better yet, whether or not that country has a state religion.

Many of the countries I listed are not Muslim majority countries either. (I forgot to bold the ones that did, my bad) but it was only like 8 of them.

There is a huge difference between stating that there are so many Muslims in America that compared to other countries in which Muslims are the majority we have more and America is a majority Muslim country.

Who in the hell said America was a majority Muslim country when 74%-76% of America is Christian?

Why argue just to argue?

The comment in context means that there are more Muslims in the US than some Muslim countries, the entire point in even broader context was illustrated in his speech where he talked against the stereotypes about America.  He pointed to the fact that there are so many Muslim in America to highlight the need for religious freedom in the Middle East.

To me that plainly states that if you took the American Muslim population out of America and made it a separate country it would be as large as other Muslim countries.

How the hell someone got America is a Muslim country out of that, I will never know, maybe if I switched parties and watched more Fox News, I will learn the "real" English language!

I have to admit, salaam, when I see your name on the screen, I start looking for the "post" button. Why? Because you're a one-trick pony - you've been that way at usmilnet and you carry that shit over here too.

Your sole purpose in life is to sell yourself. You bring your religion, wear it like a cross around your neck (except you guys don't believe in crosses), and trumpet reams of bullshit, all intended to show just how harmless you and your buddies are. You do your very best to sell yourself, because at heart you're a politician.

Kinda surprised to see that you're not quite running for office yet. Or are you?

I'd probably agree that you're pretty harmless, from a terrorist point of view, but I definitely am not so sure about your buddies.

We've gone around and around before, so let me remind you (just in case you forgot) - I don't trust Muslims. Not a freaking bit. I'll agree that not all of you are terrorists, but most of the bloodletting in this country at the hand of terrorists were Muslims. That means when I'm around a bunch of you people, I watch you. Carefully.

But I digress.

Actually, your figure of 7 million - and you have to admit, it's YOUR figure since you brought it to this party - matches that EXACTLY of His Holiness' in his Cairo speech. Kinda makes me wonder if you guys are asshole buddies. It wouldn't surprise me, since you're both Muslims. Correction - since BO publicly called himself a "Christian" (now that's yet another line of shit, isn't it, since he hasn't found a church since he and his entourage landed in D.C.?), I guess that makes him an apostate and worthy of execution, or whatever the sharia punishment is.

I'd say it's good to see you again, Robert, but that would be a lie.

[Salaam]

Very Christ-like of you Eupher, glad to see your once again showing the right example of faith.

Moving right along, I stated that 7 million was a stretch and even stated that I personally don't believe that figure, so that pretty much kills that diatribe of yours.

I merely pointed out that "if" that number was correct (once again I don't believe it is) than according to statistics that could be a true statement.

My entire point and commentary was that he was making a generalized statement to take the wind out of the sails of terrorists who teach overseas that America is at war with Islam, by stating matter of factually that not only is that not true, but we have a large population of Muslims in America with as many as some Muslim countries.

Instead of seeing that as a positive way of countering terrorist propaganda many spinned it to mean that the President was calling this country a Muslim Nation, which is not what he stated, but since he used the world Muslim and we know how that gets to some of you, it was blown all out of proportion for know reason.

I have long ago stated and believed that the number one way to destroy the terrorists, their recruiting ability, and influence and various parts of the world is to control the message and counter their propaganda.

Apparently, many of you don't think that is a good idea as everytime Obama or anyone else has anything good to say about Islam, Muslims, etc. in the context of America you blow a gasket.  President Bush started it and President Obama is continuing it.  The terrorists consistently accuse America of being anti-Muslim and everytime an American official refutes that, you guys get pissy.  Do you want the terrorists to be right?  I never understood why many of you continually support ideas and actions that giver credibility to terrorist claims, I thought the whole point was to destroy them?

Lastly, I'm not running for office, I have decided to continue efforts with my non-profit and to continue running my IT Consulting Firm.

[Eupher]

Very Christ-like of you Eupher, glad to see your once again showing the right example of faith.

 

Moving right along, I stated that 7 million was a stretch and even stated that I personally don't believe that figure, so that pretty much kills that diatribe of yours.

Not hardly. Question is, where did the 7 million figure come from? Obama used that number. Is that where you got it?

I merely pointed out that "if" that number was correct (once again I don't believe it is) than according to statistics that could be a true statement.

Fabulous. Now we're getting somewhere.

My entire point and commentary was that he was making a generalized statement to take the wind out of the sails of terrorists who teach overseas that America is at war with Islam, by stating matter of factually that not only is that not true, but we have a large population of Muslims in America with as many as some Muslim countries.

Now this is where your analysis gets bogged down in your religious fervor to further Islam. If it's Obama's intent to "take the wind out of the sails of terrorists", why does he do it by apologizing? No matter how you slice it, Salaam, Obama has gone out of his way to grovel and ingratiate himself (and by extension, the American people) before a religion, knowing full well that radical elements - and some would say principal elements of that religion - have expressed over and over again that it is their intent to destroy this nation.

Why would Obama do that? Does appeasement really work? To look at Obama's shameful display of groveling, it would appear that he thinks exactly that. Obama is going to "right all the wrongs" propagated by GWB by apologizing and bowing to Saudi royalty. Great. Just freaking great.

In a nation of over 300 million, a population of, oh, let's be generous and say there are 5 million Muslims, is "a large population"?  One-point-six percent? 

I'm not even going to waste my time by pulling up a list of predominantly Muslim countries that have an aggregate population of 5 million or less. It's pure poppycock. Making grandiose statements such as that are disengenuous at best and deliberately misleading at worst. Is it your intent to deliberately mislead people, Salaam?

Instead of seeing that as a positive way of countering terrorist propaganda many spinned it to mean that the President was calling this country a Muslim Nation, which is not what he stated, but since he used the world Muslim and we know how that gets to some of you, it was blown all out of proportion for know reason.

So a U.S. president physically bowing to a foreigner isn't alarming? If that isn't alarming to you, then what is? Had Obama kissed the Pope's ring, you can bet there would've been six times the outrage expressed on the national media. As it was, the MSM pretty much killed the bowing business within a couple days.

I have long ago stated and believed that the number one way to destroy the terrorists, their recruiting ability, and influence and various parts of the world is to control the message and counter their propaganda.

An absolutely fascinating statement. And your background in special operations, counter-insurgency, and guerilla operations is precisely what?

Apparently, many of you don't think that is a good idea as everytime Obama or anyone else has anything good to say about Islam, Muslims, etc. in the context of America you blow a gasket.  President Bush started it and President Obama is continuing it.  The terrorists consistently accuse America of being anti-Muslim and everytime an American official refutes that, you guys get pissy.  Do you want the terrorists to be right?  I never understood why many of you continually support ideas and actions that giver credibility to terrorist claims, I thought the whole point was to destroy them?

Get it through your thick head, Robert. Radical Islam is America's enemy. Apparently, you've forgotten all about the U.S.S. Cole, Khobar Towers, 9/11, and our African embassies, not to mention the cowardly attack of one of your fellow Muslims against those soldiers in Arkansas. Politicians spew all kinds of diplomatic bullshit, and GWB was no exception. You could tell every time he talked about Islam and how wonderful it was, he didn't believe it.

And I don't believe it either.

I don't trust you people. And given the opportunity, should my Nation call me to it, I'd pick up a weapon and do what has to be done against radical Islam.

Stop putting a happy face on it, Salaam. That shit doesn't wash with me.

Now, you are going to fall all over yourself in pointing out that radical Islam isn't the same as your brand of Islam. Maybe in your world.

But not in mine.

Lastly, I'm not running for office, I have decided to continue efforts with my non-profit and to continue running my IT Consulting Firm.

I'm so relieved.

[Chris_]

According to the CIA World Factbook, the USA ranks about 56th overall among nations for total population of Muslims as residents. Maybe they are misleading the Dem leadership yet again? 

You must remember, under Uncle Zer0, there are 57 states.  There must be LOTS of muslims in those extra 7 states. 

[Salaam]

Of course that's your response, because that's how you believe apparently.

Not hardly. Question is, where did the 7 million figure come from? Obama used that number. Is that where you got it?

Obviously, if you paid attention you would know that I'm not a partisan like many of you, I just played devils advocate stating that his numbers while not accurate in my estimation are true in the context he used them and it wasn't in the context of "America is a Muslim Nation".

Now this is where your analysis gets bogged down in your religious fervor to further Islam.

That's a lie from the pits of hell and you know it.  Show facts as in proof and/or evidence that I have ever at anytime on the net made an effort to "further Islam".  To the contrary I have made it clear time and time again in print and on air that I don't support missionary type efforts as I do the overwhelming majority of work within my community with Muslims.  The only times I ever even speak to non-Muslims concerning religion in any capacity is when my faith is brought up first by them and often brought up erroneously.  If one was to do a search of my postings over the years and compare it with the postings in general about Islam or Muslims, it could easily be noted that I have only responded in those threads where a statement about my faith has been made in the negative or in error.  I rarely if ever respond in threads that specifically target terrorists other than to state I agree.  It's only when statements about Islam/Muslims is predicated with "All...." that I state anything.

If it's Obama's intent to "take the wind out of the sails of terrorists", why does he do it by apologizing? No matter how you slice it, Salaam, Obama has gone out of his way to grovel and ingratiate himself (and by extension, the American people) before a religion, knowing full well that radical elements - and some would say principal elements of that religion - have expressed over and over again that it is their intent to destroy this nation.

Typical partisan talking point.  I don't consider positive statements that directly challenge those made by terrorists as "apologizing".  I truly believe that some elements in the GOP consider anything stated about Muslims or Islam in general in the positive is somehow "apologizing" and/or "appeasement" to the delight of terrorists of course as they are the only elements who validate their claims by those who have nothing but ill to state or claim about Muslims/Islam.

Why would Obama do that? Does appeasement really work? To look at Obama's shameful display of groveling, it would appear that he thinks exactly that. Obama is going to "right all the wrongs" propagated by GWB by apologizing and bowing to Saudi royalty. Great. Just freaking great.

Like I stated, it's a partisan debate your looking for, I don't have one to offer as I'm not a partisan.  Your very words "appeasement" and "groveling" wreaks of partisanship.  Regardless how you categorize the Presidents actions in these first 6 months I will at least agree that I don't believe we should be apologizing for anything.  Now whether or not the POTUS has done that, well I will leave that debate up to those who tend to get red in the face over such debate.

In a nation of over 300 million, a population of, oh, let's be generous and say there are 5 million Muslims, is "a large population"?  One-point-six percent? 

You missed the point entirely and your smiley doesn't make you seem clever, but validates that you don't get the context of the argument.  The debate is not about population density but a comparison of the facts based on a simple premise in which many of you got your panties in a bunch over:

Is the American Muslim population larger than the population of some Muslim countries?  Yes or No.  The answer is simply yes, whether that number is 5 million, 7 million, or 3 million.  The entire context of that reality is not to as many of you claimed illustrate that America is a Muslim Nation, but to point out to Muslims overseas that contrary to the propaganda that is fed to them that states how evil and anti-Muslim America is, that the truth is that America has religious freedoms which they don't have, so much so that we have enough Muslims within our borders that their population would eclipse that of some Muslim majority countries.  That statement was squarely targeted at anti-American propaganda, yet somehow it went over the heads of those who only saw the words "Muslim" and "America" and flew off the handle....

I'm not even going to waste my time by pulling up a list of predominantly Muslim countries that have an aggregate population of 5 million or less. It's pure poppycock. Making grandiose statements such as that are disengenuous at best and deliberately misleading at worst. Is it your intent to deliberately mislead people, Salaam?

If partisan spin is all your capable of then this "debate" would be best suited for a partisan, but the question remains, is the population of American Muslims greater than the population of some Muslim Majority countries?

So a U.S. president physically bowing to a foreigner isn't alarming? If that isn't alarming to you, then what is? Had Obama kissed the Pope's ring, you can bet there would've been six times the outrage expressed on the national media. As it was, the MSM pretty much killed the bowing business within a couple days.

Now I don't know how this little gem creeped into the discussion other than to present a red-herring partisan talking point wondering if you could get a reaction.  But if you must know I don't believe any US President should be bowing to any other head of state especially the Saudi's.  I will go a step further and state that I believe that we should not engage with any dictators and oppressive regimes in that region.  So yes I was upset with Obama's bowing, but I was no more upset than President Bush's holding hands, visiting, begging to drop oil prices, etc.  I believe in complete disengagement with those leaders and would be upset regardless of the party of our POTUS now or in the future. 

An absolutely fascinating statement. And your background in special operations, counter-insurgency, and guerilla operations is precisely what?

Not those specifically....nor would I share what my background is as it relates to the GWOT.  Suffice to know that I have and am doing my part in agencies that you may only read about.  To be more specific my background is as an analyst and in policy.  My work is often within national security agencies.  Don't waste your time with conjecture, this has been independently verified in the past and there are members on many sites that we have crossed paths will verify this, some having actually seen my resume.

Get it through your thick head, Robert. Radical Islam is America's enemy. Apparently, you've forgotten all about the U.S.S. Cole, Khobar Towers, 9/11, and our African embassies,

And that has what to do with this discussion?  I know this and am on the ground upholding my oath.  I'm not just an armchair quarterback or keyboard warrior like some of you.  Yet you guys tend to have all the answers, but do little to nothing in real life.  What agency do you work for in DC?

not to mention the cowardly attack of one of your fellow Muslims against those soldiers in Arkansas.

And therein lies my beef with you and other "conservative" partisans who continually put your foots in your mouths concerning me and Muslims like myself.  That murderer is not a fellow Muslim no matter how much you guys and terrorists would like to state that he is.  As my religion teaches, the scholars have verified, and fatwa after fatwa has declared (somehow you guys can't use Google to verify that), the moment one decides to murder innocents or commit any act of terror, they leave the fold of Islam and are destined for the hellfire.  Any who supports those actions either verbally, physically, or apathetically, are also considered one of them.  My fellow brethren are those soldiers who were attacked, but I already stated this before, you just couldn't help yourself with the attempted swipe and attack against my character.

Here's a listing of declarations against terror from the Grand Mufti of Mecca and others as a start, but then again, I'm certain you guys know more about Islam than them....
http://www.fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih004/index.htm

6000 Muslim clerics endorse anti-terror fatwa
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/08/Muslim-clerics-endorse-anti-terror-fatwa/UPI-38241226199440/

"Islam rejects all kinds of unjust violence, breach of peace, bloodshed, murder and plunder and does not allow it in any form. Cooperation should be done for the cause of good but not for committing sin or oppression,"

U.S. Muslims issue ‘fatwa’ against terrorism
Scholars condemn attacks on civilians as a violation of Islamic teaching
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8740980/

In the statement, called a fatwa, the 18-member Fiqh Council of North America wrote that people who commit terrorism in the name of Islam were “criminals, not ‘martyrs.”’

“There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism,” the scholars wrote. “Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram — or forbidden.”

Cleric condemns suicide attacks
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3059365.stm

One of the world's most influential Islamic leaders has condemned all attacks by suicide bombers at an international conference for Islamic scholars.

Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo - which is seen as the highest authority in Sunni Islam - said groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam.

There's much more, but of course, you guys know more about Islam, so I won't bother any further...

Politicians spew all kinds of diplomatic bullshit, and GWB was no exception. You could tell every time he talked about Islam and how wonderful it was, he didn't believe it.

And I don't believe it either.

Who asked what you believe?

I don't trust you people.

Not surprising at all.  I'm certain "you people" consists of divergent images not similar to the reflection in your mirror.

And given the opportunity, should my Nation call me to it, I'd pick up a weapon and do what has to be done against radical Islam.

Why not do that now?  The GWOT is still going on.  I would ask you to help, but since I don't look or believe like you do, I doubt you would be willing to fight side by side to defend OUR Nation.

Stop putting a happy face on it, Salaam. That shit doesn't wash with me.

Now, you are going to fall all over yourself in pointing out that radical Islam isn't the same as your brand of Islam. Maybe in your world.

But not in mine.

I'm so relieved.

And it's obvious "your world" consists of fanciful xenophobic ideals that haven't caught up with the realistic fact that whether you like it our not there are other citizens in this nation that love this nation too, even though you lump us in the category of "you people".  Hasn't that attitude died yet?  It seems that we just can't kill the mentality of decades past, we just keep changing the groups with whom "you people" applies.  Thankfully, time in on the side of the youth and eventually, that mentality will die out with those who perpetuated it several decades ago and hold on to that mentality as if their lives depended on it.  Wake up and smell the coffee, pretty soon you will be the minority, but I doubt you would be considered "you people".

[Eupher]

Obviously, if you paid attention you would know that I'm not a partisan like many of you, I just played devils advocate stating that his numbers while not accurate in my estimation are true in the context he used them and it wasn't in the context of "America is a Muslim Nation".

Obviously, if YOU paid attention you would know that I've called you out a number of times. You're no devil's advocate. You have an agenda - and that's to further yourself and your religion. Lord Zero's opinion, despite your lofty estimation, is NOT true in any context, especially the one that you keep wanting to drive home - that Muslims are a formidable political force in this country, to wit, that they (you) number up to 7 million. Seven million, all by itself, is a large number - but not when you compare it with 300+ million, which is a minor omission on your part, dontcha think?

That's a lie from the pits of hell and you know it.  Show facts as in proof and/or evidence that I have ever at anytime on the net made an effort to "further Islam".

No problem. It's been awhile since I visited your web site, and I see that it's "under construction." This is the same URL on which I saw thousands upon thousands of words about how glorious Islam is and about how you, a simple person, were going to bring America to Islam (in a manner of speaking). Your agenda, Salaam, is as transparent as you are.

Btw, that I clearly recall you having said that you did what you did on your site free of charge. But you forgot that you had a "donate" button on the site. When called on it, you professed that you had didn't know it was there, that your web site designer had apparently put it there without your knowledge or consent. Yeah, right. In a pig's ass.  In a matter of a day or so, the button magically disappeared.

Robert Salaam

  To the contrary I have made it clear time and time again in print and on air that I don't support missionary type efforts as I do the overwhelming majority of work within my community with Muslims.  The only times I ever even speak to non-Muslims concerning religion in any capacity is when my faith is brought up first by them and often brought up erroneously.  If one was to do a search of my postings over the years and compare it with the postings in general about Islam or Muslims, it could easily be noted that I have only responded in those threads where a statement about my faith has been made in the negative or in error.  I rarely if ever respond in threads that specifically target terrorists other than to state I agree.  It's only when statements about Islam/Muslims is predicated with "All...." that I state anything.

Uh huh. Yeah. Right. Sure. Fact is, Salaam, you've built yourself a cottage industry by your drive-by postings on this site, usmilnet, and God knows how many other sites. Your sole objective is to paint Islam as some kind of noble enterprise when this country has seen ample evidence of the kind of mayhem and destruction that people have done in your religion's name. It's disgraceful, Salaam, and as long as you continue your drive-by postings, I'll illustrate publicly your transparency and your agenda. Your religion is not the be-all, end-all, despite your protestations to the contrary. Your religion harbors evil and murderous and wanton brutality - sugarcoat it all you want, but that doesn't alter the truth.

Typical partisan talking point.  I don't consider positive statements that directly challenge those made by terrorists as "apologizing".  I truly believe that some elements in the GOP consider anything stated about Muslims or Islam in general in the positive is somehow "apologizing" and/or "appeasement" to the delight of terrorists of course as they are the only elements who validate their claims by those who have nothing but ill to state or claim about Muslims/Islam.

Of course you don't. News flash for you, Salaam. I'm not a Republican. And I believe my last post really said NOTHING about what Lord Zero SAID as opposed to what he DID. So once again, your attempt to deflect the issue fails.

Like I stated, it's a partisan debate your looking for...

There's nothing partisan about 3,000 people being murdered.

, I don't have one to offer as I'm not a partisan.

I'll buy that. Your entire agenda involves you, yourself, and those around you. You sell yourself routinely. You're doing it now.

  Your very words "appeasement" and "groveling" wreaks of partisanship.

It reeks (sorry, you used the homophone of "reeks") of nationalism and the horror I felt when I saw my president (as scurrilous as that sounds) bow to Saudi royalty. It's appeasement and groveling of the worst order and I felt (and still do) that Obama has sold out the country with his drive to suck up to the world, Muslims first.

Regardless how you categorize the Presidents actions in these first 6 months I will at least agree that I don't believe we should be apologizing for anything.  Now whether or not the POTUS has done that, well I will leave that debate up to those who tend to get red in the face over such debate.

No need to get red in the face. As long as Obama bows to royalty and apologizes for our Nation's reaction to 9/11, that's all the evidence I need.

Here comes your smoke and mirrors now:

You missed the point entirely and your smiley doesn't make you seem clever, but validates that you don't get the context of the argument.  The debate is not about population density but a comparison of the facts based on a simple premise in which many of you got your panties in a bunch over:

Is the American Muslim population larger than the population of some Muslim countries?  Yes or No.  The answer is simply yes, whether that number is 5 million, 7 million, or 3 million.  The entire context of that reality is not to as many of you claimed illustrate that America is a Muslim Nation, but to point out to Muslims overseas that contrary to the propaganda that is fed to them that states how evil and anti-Muslim America is, that the truth is that America has religious freedoms which they don't have, so much so that we have enough Muslims within our borders that their population would eclipse that of some Muslim majority countries.  That statement was squarely targeted at anti-American propaganda, yet somehow it went over the heads of those who only saw the words "Muslim" and "America" and flew off the handle....

If partisan spin is all your capable of then this "debate" would be best suited for a partisan, but the question remains, is the population of American Muslims greater than the population of some Muslim Majority countries?

Let's see. Salaam comes to an internet forum entitled "Conservative Cave." And he wonders why he's getting partisan arguments?    

Now, this next bit is useful, because it illustrates just how Salaam does a masterful job of backing up and regrouping. He paints the picture that he's just as offended as I am that Obama actually stooped to Saudi royalty when, point in fact, the entire concept hadn't been discussed until I starting talking about Obama's apologist policies.

Now I don't know how this little gem creeped into the discussion other than to present a red-herring partisan talking point wondering if you could get a reaction.  But if you must know I don't believe any US President should be bowing to any other head of state especially the Saudi's.  I will go a step further and state that I believe that we should not engage with any dictators and oppressive regimes in that region.  So yes I was upset with Obama's bowing, but I was no more upset than President Bush's holding hands, visiting, begging to drop oil prices, etc.  I believe in complete disengagement with those leaders and would be upset regardless of the party of our POTUS now or in the future.

 

Now here comes Salaam, the mysterious:

Not those specifically....nor would I share what my background is as it relates to the GWOT.  Suffice to know that I have and am doing my part in agencies that you may only read about.  To be more specific my background is as an analyst and in policy.  My work is often within national security agencies.  Don't waste your time with conjecture, this has been independently verified in the past and there are members on many sites that we have crossed paths will verify this, some having actually seen my resume.

Hello!!! Salaam! Hey! Over here! You'll note that I don't give a rat's ass what you do professionally! I know what you do as a matter of course - sell yourself!

And that has what to do with this discussion?  I know this and am on the ground upholding my oath.  I'm not just an armchair quarterback or keyboard warrior like some of you.  Yet you guys tend to have all the answers, but do little to nothing in real life.  What agency do you work for in DC?

And this is the guy who writes REAMS of copy - using, oddly enough, a KEYBOARD!   

Here's more faux outrage:

And therein lies my beef with you and other "conservative" partisans who continually put your foots in your mouths concerning me and Muslims like myself.  That murderer is not a fellow Muslim no matter how much you guys and terrorists would like to state that he is.  As my religion teaches, the scholars have verified, and fatwa after fatwa has declared (somehow you guys can't use Google to verify that), the moment one decides to murder innocents or commit any act of terror, they leave the fold of Islam and are destined for the hellfire.  Any who supports those actions either verbally, physically, or apathetically, are also considered one of them.  My fellow brethren are those soldiers who were attacked, but I already stated this before, you just couldn't help yourself with the attempted swipe and attack against my character.

No attack against your character, Salaam. Just your religion.

And this next is Salaam's attempt to portray Islam as being led by all sorts of wonderful people. Uh huh.

Here's a listing of declarations against terror from the Grand Mufti of Mecca and others as a start, but then again, I'm certain you guys know more about Islam than them....
http://www.fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih004/index.htm

6000 Muslim clerics endorse anti-terror fatwa
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/08/Muslim-clerics-endorse-anti-terror-fatwa/UPI-38241226199440/
U.S. Muslims issue ‘fatwa’ against terrorism
Scholars condemn attacks on civilians as a violation of Islamic teaching
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8740980/
Cleric condemns suicide attacks
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3059365.stm
There's much more, but of course, you guys know more about Islam, so I won't bother any further...

Who asked what you believe?

I think the First Amendment protects my right to say what I believe. Is that okay with you?   

And here's the race card, thinly disguised, of course:

Not surprising at all.  I'm certain "you people" consists of divergent images not similar to the reflection in your mirror.

Why not do that now?  The GWOT is still going on.  I would ask you to help, but since I don't look or believe like you do, I doubt you would be willing to fight side by side to defend OUR Nation.

Another reading comprehension issue. I said IF CALLED. As a retiree, I may be recalled at the pleasure of DoD. That won't happen, most likely, since I'm not a counter-insurgency expert like you are.

More vitriole:

And it's obvious "your world" consists of fanciful xenophobic ideals that haven't caught up with the realistic fact that whether you like it our not there are other citizens in this nation that love this nation too, even though you lump us in the category of "you people".  Hasn't that attitude died yet?  It seems that we just can't kill the mentality of decades past, we just keep changing the groups with whom "you people" applies.  Thankfully, time in on the side of the youth and eventually, that mentality will die out with those who perpetuated it several decades ago and hold on to that mentality as if their lives depended on it.  Wake up and smell the coffee, pretty soon you will be the minority, but I doubt you would be considered "you people".

Here's another news flash, Salaam. I've already lived in a number of places where I've been the "minority." So don't preach to me as to what that constitutes.

Go back and reload after your drive-by post, and come back to play again. I look forward to it!

[dutch508]

Very Christ-like of you Eupher, glad to see your once again showing the right example of faith.

Easy, cowboy. Not all on this site are Christians. I am pretty sure my chosen deity would revel in the blood of our foes.

Hey- what do you know. We do have stuff in common.

[Chris_]

Very Christ-like of you Eupher, glad to see your once again showing the right example of faith.

Moving right along, I stated that 7 million was a stretch and even stated that I personally don't believe that figure, so that pretty much kills that diatribe of yours.

I merely pointed out that "if" that number was correct (once again I don't believe it is) than according to statistics that could be a true statement.

My entire point and commentary was that he was making a generalized statement to take the wind out of the sails of terrorists who teach overseas that America is at war with Islam, by stating matter of factually that not only is that not true, but we have a large population of Muslims in America with as many as some Muslim countries.

That's not what he said.

Instead of seeing that as a positive way of countering terrorist propaganda many spinned it to mean that the President was calling this country a Muslim Nation, which is not what he stated, but since he used the world Muslim and we know how that gets to some of you, it was blown all out of proportion for know reason.

Here's what he said:

“And one of the points I want to make is, is that if you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we’d be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world,” Mr. Obama said.

I have long ago stated and believed that the number one way to destroy the terrorists, their recruiting ability, and influence and various parts of the world is to control the message and counter their propaganda.

Apparently, many of you don't think that is a good idea as everytime Obama or anyone else has anything good to say about Islam, Muslims, etc. in the context of America you blow a gasket. 

Over generalize much?   

President Bush started it and President Obama is continuing it.  The terrorists consistently accuse America of being anti-Muslim and everytime an American official refutes that, you guys get pissy.  Do you want the terrorists to be right?  I never understood why many of you continually support ideas and actions that giver credibility to terrorist claims, I thought the whole point was to destroy them?

No, the whole point is that the purpose of Islam is to force the rest of the world to convert or die. It is not a religion of peace.  Never has been.

Lastly, I'm not running for office, I have decided to continue efforts with my non-profit and to continue running my IT Consulting Firm.

[Salaam]

No problem. It's been awhile since I visited your web site, and I see that it's "under construction." This is the same URL on which I saw thousands upon thousands of words about how glorious Islam is and about how you, a simple person, were going to bring America to Islam (in a manner of speaking). Your agenda, Salaam, is as transparent as you are.

Well if it's so transparent, why is it that after allegation after allegation you have yet to provide any evidence other than your claims?  I write alot and speak alot, the records are all over the net, yet somehow you can't seem to post anything that would back up your claims.

Btw, that I clearly recall you having said that you did what you did on your site free of charge. But you forgot that you had a "donate" button on the site. When called on it, you professed that you had didn't know it was there, that your web site designer had apparently put it there without your knowledge or consent. Yeah, right. In a pig's ass.  In a matter of a day or so, the button magically disappeared.

You called me on something several years ago about a paypal link that was removed?  Your a freaking genius, I stated matter of factly as you reported (but don't believe) and removed the button.  The real question is what are you proving with your comment other than throwing out another logical fallacy?  The button is gone, do you have any records, proof, or anything that I have asked anyone to give me one red cent?  Any proof whatsoever?  So is your issue that I removed the paypal button and don't ask for money or that the button was there a couple of years ago for a few days and then deleted?  Either way what's your point?

Uh huh. Yeah. Right. Sure. Fact is, Salaam, you've built yourself a cottage industry by your drive-by postings on this site, usmilnet, and God knows how many other sites. Your sole objective is to paint Islam as some kind of noble enterprise when this country has seen ample evidence of the kind of mayhem and destruction that people have done in your religion's name. It's disgraceful, Salaam, and as long as you continue your drive-by postings, I'll illustrate publicly your transparency and your agenda.

Do you have any honor?  I'm not questioning your service which I thank you for, but as a human being.  Here you go ranting on and on about my "agenda" and what I'm supposedly doing, but when called on it directly you don't have any proof.  Please, out of probably hundreds of thousands of words out there that I produced, why is it you can't post anything that proves my "agenda"?

Be a man about it, if you don't have facts, at least admit that your just doing what's akin to name-calling.  I'm certain you would have many allies that would love to comb through my writings looking for something (it has been done numerous times) and you and I both know you won't find anything.  But for the love of God, if your going to keep making accusations about my person, at least have the ability to back it up with something.

Your religion is not the be-all, end-all, despite your protestations to the contrary.

Yet another unfounded claim.  Have I ever stated that anywhere?

Your religion harbors evil and murderous and wanton brutality - sugarcoat it all you want, but that doesn't alter the truth.

   Prove it!  Prove how a religion and not people commit acts.  I would love to see you explain away how something that has no physicality can act.

Of course you don't. News flash for you, Salaam. I'm not a Republican. And I believe my last post really said NOTHING about what Lord Zero SAID as opposed to what he DID. So once again, your attempt to deflect the issue fails.

WTH are you talking about now?  Deflect?  Your the red-herring master.  I was debating the absurd spin that claimed the POTUS called America a Muslim nation, and once you threw your hat in the ring, you made it about me, making all kinds of outlandish claims with no evidence, sideswiping my religion, and a couple of insults about Obama for good measure.  None of which debated the core question did Obama or did Obama not call America a Muslim nation.  So don't be a hypocrite talking about deflections.

There's nothing partisan about 3,000 people being murdered.

That's the best argument you got?  Bring up 9/11?  I absolutely detest when people use 9/11 as a scapegoat to sugar coat why they have idiotic ideological views about Muslims.  It's a dishonor to those who were murdered and our nation that was attacked, and on a side it's insulting to Muslim Americans with whom you and others use 9/11 as an excuse to hate specifically when you speak so reverently about 9/11 as if the only people who were killed, helped, and serving in the GWOT were white anglo Christians!  The facts that seem to get lost in the sauce with those so quick to hail 9/11 as their great excuse for being xenophobic assholes is that there were Muslims who worked in the WTC who were murdered that day, there were Muslims who helped in the NYPD and NYFD who helped that day, and there are Muslims currently serving and dying fighting the terrorists right now as we speak, who as Americans were just as outraged, just as angry, and just as willing to fight terrorism as any other American.  And to be perfectly honest, everytime I get an email from a Muslim inquiring about serving our country which is a stark contradiction to the lies that people like you spread, it makes me that much more willing to slap the taste out of someones mouth who wants to use 9/11 as a scapegoat to explain why they are a xenophobe.  19 terrorists mainly from Saudi Arabia attacked America.  They didn't attack White Americans, Black Americans, Christian Americans, Muslim Americans, etc.  They attacked America.  They could care less what we look like or what we believe, they will kill you just as fast as they would kill me.  So please spare me the BS argument about your perceived justification for your warped ideology.  Last I checked more Muslims have been killed and die more each day than anyone else on the planet at the hands of terrorists, yet your the one that should be worried.  Next time you go to your local store, ask yourself if your more likely to be a victim of a terrorist attack or a Muslim in anytown, Middle East, going to get groceries for their family or pray at the mosque?  When you get that answer, then you would know why I think all your anti-Muslim types are just making excuses to make your hate seem justified.  Terrorists target more Muslims than anyone on the planet and have more Muslim blood on their hands than any other religious group, but if we listened to people like you, we would be led to believe that the Christians here in America have more to fear from the "evils of Islam" than actual Muslims who practice their faith who get slaughtered by terrorists!  Riddle me this one, Mr. Brain, how is it possible that Islam is a violent religion with over a billion followers yet the only actual violent "adherents" just happen to kill more of those who supposedly believe the same as they do?  Logic would dictate that if we all believed the same, we would unite against non-Muslims right?  I know, I know, and Jesus (as) cast out the demons in Satan's name too! (that's what your argument amounts to)

I'll buy that. Your entire agenda involves you, yourself, and those around you. You sell yourself routinely. You're doing it now.

Well articulate and prove what this agenda is.  Why can't you do it?  Cat got your tongue?

It reeks (sorry, you used the homophone of "reeks") of nationalism and the horror I felt when I saw my president (as scurrilous as that sounds) bow to Saudi royalty. It's appeasement and groveling of the worst order and I felt (and still do) that Obama has sold out the country with his drive to suck up to the world, Muslims first.

Well, I'm glad you can spell, now can you back up your accusations against me?  And as far as nationalism is concerned, when you would piss on segments of your countrymen because they don't look, believe, etc. as you do, one has to wonder if your allegiance is truly to the entire Nation or just one segment of society....

No need to get red in the face. As long as Obama bows to royalty and apologizes for our Nation's reaction to 9/11, that's all the evidence I need.

A:  I can't get red in the face.
B:  You used the word "evidence" interesting, since you can't seem to ever provide any to back up your claims....

Here comes your smoke and mirrors now:

Let's see. Salaam comes to an internet forum entitled "Conservative Cave." And he wonders why he's getting partisan arguments?    

What's even funnier is that in the same post you stated both that your not a Republican and admitted that your giving partisan arguments, how does that work out?

Now, this next bit is useful, because it illustrates just how Salaam does a masterful job of backing up and regrouping. He paints the picture that he's just as offended as I am that Obama actually stooped to Saudi royalty when, point in fact, the entire concept hadn't been discussed until I starting talking about Obama's apologist policies.

  I bet you think you make sense don't you?  Of course, I didn't bring up how I felt about Obama bowing because that's not the topic of the thread!!!!! Since you brought it up out of nowhere i.e. a deflection, I commented on it.  In other words, this little bit of commentary is no shit sherlock.  If you didn't bring it up then I wouldn't have gave an opinion, simple as that.  But somehow, I'm up to something....
 

Now here comes Salaam, the mysterious:
Hello!!! Salaam! Hey! Over here! You'll note that I don't give a rat's ass what you do professionally! I know what you do as a matter of course - sell yourself!

And this is the guy who writes REAMS of copy - using, oddly enough, a KEYBOARD!   

OK, well back up your claims please!  Do I have to beg now?  I mean man up, if you can make claims about someone surely you have the ability to back them up, in other words I challenge you to prove yourself other than a child making outlandish statements i.e. another logical fallacy oft committed by you called "attack the messenger".

Here's more faux outrage:
No attack against your character, Salaam. Just your religion.

And your a liar.  Several times in this thread you talked about my "agenda" and alluded to things about my character with zero evidence.  I would quote you verbatim, but you do it so often, I don't need to, you will step on your willy again soon enough.

And this next is Salaam's attempt to portray Islam as being led by all sorts of wonderful people. Uh huh.

Are you just a chronic liar or what?  Quote me where I stated that?  Or is it that you just don't have the ability to engage in an adult debate in which points and counterpoints are offered?  Instead of making claims, why not produce evidence and debate what is stated.

I posted actual fatwa's from leaders in Islam that specifically state the opposite of what you and so many others constantly lie about by saying in essence that all Muslims support terrorism and our religion is violent.  Then when faced with the facts that our leaders i.e. the ones who teach the religion to 1 billion people make it clear that terrorism is against Islam, then instead of dealing with the proof that so many claim doesn't exist, you try to deflect with yet another sarcastic remark and smear campaigns trying to words in my mouth.

I think the First Amendment protects my right to say what I believe. Is that okay with you?   

And you and I and a host of others proudly defend that right, but it doesn't mean I can't believe that what you believe is shear idiocy.

And here's the race card, thinly disguised, of course:

Number one talking point to deflect from the issue.  I know, I'm supposed to now run because you spoke of the infamous card, because I called you out on your BS xenophobic arguments?  I think not.  Prove that I'm a racist or called you one first bud.

Another reading comprehension issue. I said IF CALLED. As a retiree, I may be recalled at the pleasure of DoD. That won't happen, most likely, since I'm not a counter-insurgency expert like you are.

Yeah, well good for you.  While you wait on your "IF" I will continue to serve in every capacity my country allows me to while you make outlandish claims about me that you can't back up.

More vitriole:

Here's another news flash, Salaam. I've already lived in a number of places where I've been the "minority." So don't preach to me as to what that constitutes.

Go back and reload after your drive-by post, and come back to play again. I look forward to it!

And it's vitriol Mr. Petty...  And don't give me the "I've been the minority" speech,

A:  No one cares and I sure didn't bring it up (but since you like to deflect....)
B:  What does this have to do with anything?  Did Obama state that America is a Muslim nation or not?

Keep trying.  I look forward to you attempting at integrity with actual proof to back up your claims about me.

[TheSarge]

Apparently, you've forgotten all about the U.S.S. Cole, Khobar Towers, 9/11, and our African embassies, not to mention the cowardly attack of one of your fellow Muslims against those soldiers in Arkansas.

Maybe Robert thinks we had it coming.

[TheSarge]

nor would I share what my background is as it relates to the GWOT.  Suffice to know that I have and am doing my part in agencies that you may only read about.  To be more specific my background is as an analyst and in policy.  My work is often within national security agencies.

TiT is that you????

[thundley4]

nor would I share what my background is as it relates to the GWOT.  Suffice to know that I have and am doing my part in agencies that you may only read about.  To be more specific my background is as an analyst and in policy.  My work is often within national security agencies.

TiT is that you????

My question would be: for which side is he working?

[Eupher]

Well if it's so transparent, why is it that after allegation after allegation you have yet to provide any evidence other than your claims?  I write alot and speak alot, the records are all over the net, yet somehow you can't seem to post anything that would back up your claims.

Salaam, if you think I'm going to chase all over the internet to play your silly game, you're sadly mistaken. Fact of the matter is, you have a long and checkered history on usmilnet - and I know that YOU know exactly what I'm talking about. You can play your childish games, but in the end it goes nowhere. You're still going to spout your Muslim bullshit as if you're actually going to find a sympathetic ear.

You called me on something several years ago about a paypal link that was removed?  Your a freaking genius, I stated matter of factly as you reported (but don't believe) and removed the button.  The real question is what are you proving with your comment other than throwing out another logical fallacy?  The button is gone, do you have any records, proof, or anything that I have asked anyone to give me one red cent?  Any proof whatsoever?  So is your issue that I removed the paypal button and don't ask for money or that the button was there a couple of years ago for a few days and then deleted?  Either way what's your point?

Reading comprehension again. I didn't say "PayPal", I said "Donate" button. But now that you mention it, maybe it was a PayPal button, Either way, you were fishin' for cash and lied about it. Got caught, too. Your credibility is ZERO, Salaam. Sorta like your president.

IIRC, your little stunt occurred in early 2007. Quite the little charade you were pulling there. Going on and on and on about how noble you are, about how you did all that you do (whatever the hell that is, besides try to shove Islam down other's throats) for no compensation, only to find out that OOPS!, there's a donate button that you knew nothing about. Again, Robert, I'm not going to research through two years of data just to find this stuff. I have better things to do with my time. It's enough for me to know that YOU know what I'm talking about. Right?

I'd think that Rebel probably remembers a little bit about this, as would Thor. They both witnessed this bullshit.

The point is, since you have a hard time connecting the dots, you come onto this site and others like it, ready to leap on the first thread that pops up concerning Islam - to that end, I'll agree with you. You're a one-trick pony with little to no other interests other than spouting off about your new-found religion -- that is, the same religion you "found" within a few weeks of 9/11.

That one right there boggles my mind. You have some sort of epiphany within weeks after the largest loss of life due to ANY enemy on American soil since the Civil ****ing War and you run off and "follow your heart." Aww, ain't that quaint!    

You see, I remember your bullshit stories. I read your web site, and I followed the links that you did have, once upon a time, on your web site. I even remembered the URL - kinda hard to forget, don'tcha think? "The American Muslim."

Do you have any honor?  I'm not questioning your service which I thank you for, but as a human being.  Here you go ranting on and on about my "agenda" and what I'm supposedly doing, but when called on it directly you don't have any proof.  Please, out of probably hundreds of thousands of words out there that I produced, why is it you can't post anything that proves my "agenda"?

What does my honor have to do with your agenda? Obfuscation, deflection, and double-talk. You've made a career out of talking which is why I'd bet my next retirement check that you wind up in politics. You already live in the cesspool known as D.C. Right?

Be a man about it, if you don't have facts, at least admit that your just doing what's akin to name-calling.  I'm certain you would have many allies that would love to comb through my writings looking for something (it has been done numerous times) and you and I both know you won't find anything.  But for the love of God, if your going to keep making accusations about my person, at least have the ability to back it up with something.

 

...snip...(because it's getting boring)

WTH are you talking about now?  Deflect?  Your the red-herring master.  I was debating the absurd spin that claimed the POTUS called America a Muslim nation, and once you threw your hat in the ring, you made it about me, making all kinds of outlandish claims with no evidence, sideswiping my religion, and a couple of insults about Obama for good measure.  None of which debated the core question did Obama or did Obama not call America a Muslim nation.  So don't be a hypocrite talking about deflections.

There you go with your "evidence" again. Apparently you can't read. I posted statistical evidence from the *cough* gummint. Take another look - you're getting apoplectic in your rage and apparently you're blind with it.

That's the best argument you got?  Bring up 9/11?  I absolutely detest when people use 9/11 as a scapegoat to sugar coat why they have idiotic ideological views about Muslims.  It's a dishonor to those who were murdered and our nation that was attacked, and on a side it's insulting to Muslim Americans with whom you and others use 9/11 as an excuse to hate specifically when you speak so reverently about 9/11 as if the only people who were killed, helped, and serving in the GWOT were white anglo Christians!  The facts that seem to get lost in the sauce with those so quick to hail 9/11 as their great excuse for being xenophobic assholes is that there were Muslims who worked in the WTC who were murdered that day, there were Muslims who helped in the NYPD and NYFD who helped that day, and there are Muslims currently serving and dying fighting the terrorists right now as we speak, who as Americans were just as outraged, just as angry, and just as willing to fight terrorism as any other American.  And to be perfectly honest, everytime I get an email from a Muslim inquiring about serving our country which is a stark contradiction to the lies that people like you spread, it makes me that much more willing to slap the taste out of someones mouth who wants to use 9/11 as a scapegoat to explain why they are a xenophobe.  19 terrorists mainly from Saudi Arabia attacked America.  They didn't attack White Americans, Black Americans, Christian Americans, Muslim Americans, etc.  They attacked America.  They could care less what we look like or what we believe, they will kill you just as fast as they would kill me.  So please spare me the BS argument about your perceived justification for your warped ideology.  Last I checked more Muslims have been killed and die more each day than anyone else on the planet at the hands of terrorists, yet your the one that should be worried.  Next time you go to your local store, ask yourself if your more likely to be a victim of a terrorist attack or a Muslim in anytown, Middle East, going to get groceries for their family or pray at the mosque?  When you get that answer, then you would know why I think all your anti-Muslim types are just making excuses to make your hate seem justified.  Terrorists target more Muslims than anyone on the planet and have more Muslim blood on their hands than any other religious group, but if we listened to people like you, we would be led to believe that the Christians here in America have more to fear from the "evils of Islam" than actual Muslims who practice their faith who get slaughtered by terrorists!  Riddle me this one, Mr. Brain, how is it possible that Islam is a violent religion with over a billion followers yet the only actual violent "adherents" just happen to kill more of those who supposedly believe the same as they do?  Logic would dictate that if we all believed the same, we would unite against non-Muslims right?  I know, I know, and Jesus (as) cast out the demons in Satan's name too! (that's what your argument amounts to)

Feel better now that you got that out of your system? This may come as a great shock to you, Robert, but I don't really give a shit what you "detest". 9/11 was the darkest chapter in American history, bar none, and when chumps like you come along and cheapen it with your faux outrage, well, it just hammers the point home that you can paint yourself as a victim all day long.

But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see through your shit. If so many Muslims are getting killed by other Muslims, why aren't the "good" Muslims kicking ass and taking names? Why do they play the perpetual victim? I have absolutely no sympathy for a body of people who can't/won't defend themselves. Take your "victim" bullshit somewhere else, Robert. It ain't washing here.

Well articulate and prove what this agenda is.  Why can't you do it?  Cat got your tongue?

One more time, since you've proven you have reading comprehension difficulties.

Robert Salaam's agenda is quite simple. It's him. Secondarily, it's about his religion, which he found in the ashes of 9/11. He blogs, he writes, he speaks, he moves a lot of air with his lungs. But inevitably, it's all about HIM.

...snip....

A:  I can't get red in the face.

Sure you can! It's just a darker shade of red!

What's even funnier is that in the same post you stated both that your not a Republican and admitted that your giving partisan arguments, how does that work out?

I'll spell it out so that even you can understand it. I am a conservative. But I am not a Republican. I believe that the Republican party has long since forgotten conservatism. Tenets of the party do not hold with my own core beliefs, which center around fiscal accountability and adherence to the 10th Amendment. I believe the federal government has been out of control for decades now and your man in the Oval Orifice, as bizarre as it seems, is making it worse.

 More ranting and raving snipped....

And your a liar.  Several times in this thread you talked about my "agenda" and alluded to things about my character with zero evidence.  I would quote you verbatim, but you do it so often, I don't need to, you will step on your willy again soon enough.

You have the audacity to call me a liar? When you can't even 'fess up about the lie that was the donate button on your own web site? You're a sad state of affairs, Bob. Sad indeed.

More garbage clipped...

I know, I'm supposed to now run because you spoke of the infamous card, because I called you out on your BS xenophobic arguments?  I think not.  Prove that I'm a racist or called you one first bud.

You alluded to it, thinly disguised, as I said in my last post. Re-read it again to make sure you understand it. You made mention that I wrote "you people" and you being what you are, you immediately thought I was referring to your race. Nope, not a chance, Bob. I was referring to "you Muslims". You can refer to that as being xenophobic if you like, matters not to me. But I'll tell you this - I didn't give a helluva lot of thought about Islam or Muslims at all --

Until 9/11 when the bastards came and killed 3,000 innocent people.

Take your fatwas and shove 'em. They mean nothing to me.

[Salaam]

Maybe Robert thinks we had it coming.

My question would be: for which side is he working?

I haven't been that insulted in a while, but I guess that's just the nature of some people.

[TheSarge]

I haven't been that insulted in a while, but I guess that's just the nature of some people.

Gee didn't hear a denial in that anywhere. 

Color me surprised.

[Salaam]

A fallacy is an argument which provides poor reasoning in support of its conclusion. Fallacies differ from other bad arguments in that many people find them psychologically persuasive. That is, people will mistakenly take a fallacious argument to provide good reasons to believe its conclusion. An argument can be fallacious whether or not its conclusion is true.

Fallacies can be categorized in a number of ways. For example, formal fallacies rely on an incorrect logical step; an informal fallacy does not rely on incorrect logical deduction. Verbal fallacies use some property of language to mislead, for example, ambiguity or verbosity.

Fallacies are also often concerned with causality, which is not strictly addressed by logic. They may also involve implicit (or unstated) assumptions.

Fallacies often exploit emotional triggers in the listener or interlocutor. For example, an argument may appeal to patriotism or family or may exploit an intellectual weakness of the listener. Fallacious arguments may also take advantage of social relationships between people. For example, citing an important individual's support for a view to encourage listeners to agree with it.

Now the types of fallacies committed by Eupher and others:

    * Fallacy of Accident: a generalization that disregards exceptions
          o Example

                Argument: Terrorism is evil. Muslims commit terror. Therefore, Muslims are evil.
                Problem:  Not all Muslims engage in terrorism.

          o Also called destroying the exception, a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid


    * Converse Fallacy of Accident: argues from a special case to a general rule
          o Example

                Argument: Everytime I see Muslims they are violent, so it must be true that all Muslims are violent.
                Problem: What one has seen is a special case. One can not have seen all Muslims.

          o Also called reverse accident, destroying the exception, a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter

   * Irrelevant Conclusion: diverts attention away from a fact in dispute rather than address it directly.

         o Example

                Argument: Terrorists believes that Islam is violent therefore it must be violent.
                Problem: Terrorists can be wrong. (In particular this is an appeal to authority).

Then there are the other obvious fallacies that are used almost exclusively such as:

argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

An ad hominem argument has the basic form:

    Person A makes claim X
    There is something objectionable about Person A
    Therefore claim X is false

for example:

Salaam states that Obama did not call America a Muslim Nation
Salaam is a Muslim and had a Paypal button on his site 2 years ago so that make him "shady"
Therefore, Obama did call America a Muslim Nation and Salaam is lying!

Red herring

Similar to ignoratio elenchi, a red herring is an argument, given in reply, that does not address the original issue. Critically, a red herring is a deliberate attempt to change the subject or divert the argument.

for example:

Salaam states that Obama did not call America a Muslim Nation
Eupher states that Obama bowed to the Saudi King, Robert had a Paypal button on his site two years ago, 3000 Americans died on 9/11, etc. etc. etc.

My personal Eupher favorite:

The bare assertion fallacy is a fallacy in formal logic where a premise in an argument is assumed to be true merely because it says that it is true.

One form of the fallacy may be summarized as follows:

    * Fact 1: Eupher claims Salaam has an "agenda".
    * Fact 2: Eupher claims that he is not lying.
    * Conclusion: Therefore, Salaam having an "agenda" is true.

Topic: Obama calls US a Muslim nation

Point:  Many here actually believe he stated that.
Counterpoint:  I believe that not only did he not say that (actual transcript) even the insinuation of such is ridiculous in context.

Is anyone actually willing to provide any evidence to support that claim or is it just easier to call names, switch topics, etc.?

[Salaam]

Gee didn't hear a denial in that anywhere. 

Color me surprised.

BS!  I don't have to deny anything, my record bears witness of me.  Not to mention my DD214, SF86, etc. etc. etc.

You want to make outlandish claims and assertions about my service and/or loyalty to my country, be man enough to provide evidence to back up those claims, or man up and apologize.

[thundley4]

I haven't been that insulted in a while, but I guess that's just the nature of some people.

From what I've seen here, your defense of and the image Islam is more important to you than any outrage towards the "few" that commit acts of terrorism.

[dutch508]

So far I have only two people on ignore.

TNO, for obvious reasons and now salaam.

I am sure that he'll be offended that I don't care to listen to his rambling cut and paste defense of his chosen religion. I know that I don't care.

I have alot of experiance in the ME dealing with islamic culture, in SA, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan. Add to that the  EU and US of A and I'd say I know and have met a huge amount of muslims. If I tried to figure out the % that didn't try to kill me vs the % that did I am sure I'd come up with a small number.

Of course, it only takes one getting lucky to make it a very bad day.