Are 'No-Fail' Grading Systems Hurting or Helping Students?

[Chris_]

Are 'No-Fail' Grading Systems Hurting or Helping Students?

What's a kid gotta do to get an "F" these days?

At a growing number of middle schools and high schools across the country, students no longer receive failing marks when they fail. Instead, they get an "H" — for "held" — on their report cards, and they're given a chance to rectify their poor performance without tanking the entire semester.

Educators in schools from Costa Mesa, Calif., to Maynard, Mass., are also employing a policy known in school hallways as ZAP — or "Zeros Aren't Permitted" — which gives students an opportunity to finish the homework they neglected to do on time.

While administrators and teachers say the policies provide hope for underperforming students, critics say that lowering or altering education standards is not the answer. They point to case studies in Grand Rapids, Mich., where public high schools are using the "H" grading system this year and, according to reports, only 16 percent of first-semester "H" grades became passing grades in the second semester.

*snip*

"Students ought to be assessed on how they master whatever skills they're being assessed on, and one grade cannot achieve that," Johnson told FOXNews.com. "If a teacher is not teaching to different learning styles, a student is always behind the 8-ball."

These kids are going to be in for a very rude awakening when they get out of school.  The world is not going to adapt to them.

I had a college professor try this sh*t once.  We had a major project due at mid-term...on a Monday. 2/3 of the class spent the entire weekend in the class studio working 48 hrs straight to get finished.  The other 1/3 blew it off.  On Monday morning the prof came in and realized not everyone had finished, so he said we could all have 3 more days to turn them in. 2/3 of the class said, "Oh H*ll no you don't.  We busted our a$$es all weekend for this?"  After some "encouragement" from the dept head, he backed down.

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[JohnnyReb]

....and on every rusted Volvo will be the bumper snicker.

"MY KIDS A STRAIGHT H STUDENT AT ____________."

[Flame]

How about a compromise on the two?  The kids who DO the work, but get a poor grade (due to not understanding or whatever) get ONE chance to re-do to improve their grade.  Those that just chose to NOT do the work don't get another chance, or the standard 1/2 credit or whatever for being turned in late.

Either way, allowing kids that are too lazy to turn crap in whenever they feel like it is just stupid.

[Eupher]

This is the kind of stuff that makes my blood boil.

There are these things in life called "standards" against which we hold ourselves and each other "accountable."

"Meeting the standard" is the performance measure that we all face at one time or another - it is absolutely senseless and stupid to sugarcoat it or pretend it isn't there.

Bullshit like "ZAP" and the idea that kids cannot fail spells an ever-growing din of destruction for this country.

And this is precisely the kind of thing that I've seen in the workplace. Since "kids" weren't permitted to fail in school or in other endeavors, they expect the rest of the world to entertain these youngsters with understanding and asswiping so that their sense of self isn't horribly maimed.

  that.

Failure is failure. Embrace the suck. Learn from it. Pick your ass up off the ground, wipe off your knees and get back at it again.

Kids don't hear that enough these days. Good on lug-nut for being involved with a class that had balls enough to do what had to be done. h5 

[thundley4]

Didn't this kind of crap start with sports, and not keeping score at games, giving all teams trophies and whatnot? Why not apply this to the National Spelling Bee competition. It would make it open to more kids and just think how hilarious some of the spelled words would be.

[NHSparky]

And what Guidance Counselors WON'T tell you is that of those "geniuses" who go off to some college, more than HALF don't finish their freshman year.  Wow, actions have consequences--who knew?

[Chris_]

Didn't this kind of crap start with sports, and not keeping score at games, giving all teams trophies and whatnot? Why not apply this to the National Spelling Bee competition. It would make it open to more kids and just think how hilarious some of the spelled words would be.

We did the "no score, everybody gets a trophy in 4yr old t-ball".  4yr olds got a trophy for trying and learning.  The next year they learned about losing and did their best not to do so.

[rich_t]

It's because of crap like this that so many kids graduate from HS as functional illiterates not even remotely prepared for the "real" world.

When my son was still in HS he told me that his teachers didn't deduct for spelling or poor grammar on written reports.

I told him the "real" world does.  He was planning on getting a business degree.

[thundley4]

It's because of crap like this that so many kids graduate from HS as functional illiterates not even remotely prepared for the "real" world.

When my son was still in HS he told me that his teachers didn't deduct for spelling or poor grammar on written reports.

I told him the "real" world does.  He was planning on getting a business degree.

However, they are quite prepared to be members of the Dim voting base.

[DumbAss Tanker]

While I am generally against the no-fail idea, it is not as valuelessly-stupid as it sounds.  I have four highly-intelligent but very different kids, one wanted to excel, one to rebel, one has just some totally left-handed brain that can deal with complexity but not basics, and one has a reading disability.  Rewards and punishmnts had very little effect on the value they put on grades, only the first and last actually cared what they made in school courses at the time.   

[MarshallLaw]

....and on every rusted Volvo will be the bumper snicker.

"MY KIDZ A STRAYT H STOODENT AT ____________."

Fixt.

[The Village Idiot]

Man oh man this is a stupid idea. The worst kind of social promotion to pass students no matter what

[The Village Idiot]

There are a few schools in Texas doing this. There are also a lot of school districts in Texas where the minimum grade is 50.

I think the legislature was trying to undo it

[jinxmchue]

Educators in schools from Costa Mesa, Calif., to Maynard, Mass., are also employing a policy known in school hallways as ZAP — or "Zeros Aren't Permitted" — which gives students an opportunity to finish the homework they neglected to do on time.

Because that's how the real world works, right?

No penalties for late income tax paperwork.

People won't get upset if your deliveries are a few days late.

Your boss will give you as many second chances as you need to get your work done.

Just get to repairing people's stuff (cars, washing machines, furnaces, water heaters, etc.) whenever you feel like getting to it.

Your employees won't mind a bit if you don't get payroll done on time.

[Chris_]

Because that's how the real world works, right?

No penalties for late income tax paperwork.

People won't get upset if your deliveries are a few days late.

Your boss will give you as many second chances as you need to get your work done.

Just get to repairing people's stuff (cars, washing machines, furnaces, water heaters, etc.) whenever you feel like getting to it.

Your employees won't mind a bit if you don't get payroll done on time.

...and you won't mind if your doctor says, "Oops, you need to go back to surgery, "we" for got something".

[jinxmchue]

...and you won't mind if your doctor says, "Oops, you need to go back to surgery, "we" for got something".

Good one.  Or, you know, you could need life-or-death surgery and your doctor says, "Well, sorry we missed operating on you when we scheduled it.  We'll get around to making it up soon."

[Eupher]

Good one.  Or, you know, you could need life-or-death surgery and your doctor says, "Well, sorry we missed operating on you when we scheduled it.  We'll get around to making it up soon."

With the Exalted One in power, that day is coming sooner than we think - for everyone but him and his family, of course.

[rich_t]

While I am generally against the no-fail idea, it is not as valuelessly-stupid as it sounds.  I have four highly-intelligent but very different kids, one wanted to excel, one to rebel, one has just some totally left-handed brain that can deal with complexity but not basics, and one has a reading disability.  Rewards and punishmnts had very little effect on the value they put on grades, only the first and last actually cared what they made in school courses at the time.   

While I think I understand what you are saying, I don't agree with lowering the bar for everyone to accomodate the small percentage of exceptions. 

The real world simply doesn't work that way.

Our school system is a disgrace.  We spend more per student than any other country in the world AFAIK and far too many of our kids still graduate as functional illiterates.

Far too many can barely read, have horrible spelling and grammer, unable to do basic math etc.

I don't see where doing away with a grading system, is going to be helpful in any meaningful way.

[Mike220]

I think having remedial, junior high school math, reading and writing classes at universities says a lot about the state of our educational system. 

[Chris_]

Johnny can't read, but it's okay because he feels good about it.

[Chris_]

I was just chatting with my neice out in Califunny on Facebook, and she was telling me how exhausted she was because she had to last through 6 whole hours of school (she's 12).  I told her that the rest of the world doesn't work on a 6 hours on/18 hours off schedule, and illustrated with the experiences I had on a docking crew for the Naval Shipyard.  We started docking a carrier at about 21:00 one evening, and finally completed the evolution 27 hours later.  She was nonplussed, until I clarified for her: the docking crew for that evolution was ON DUTY for that whole 27 hour period, until that ship was properly settled on the dock set, the caisson back in place, and the dry dock dry again.

There are a lot of school aged young Americans who are in for a real awakening when they take their first steps out into the REAL WORLD.  Their school systems do nothing but a disservice to them by trying to wrap them in bubble-wrap for their entire public education careers.

[Ptarmigan]

When I was in school, a 70 or below was considered a "F". It's sad that we are using no fail grading systems. They won't do well in college if used. The most successful people had many failures in life.

Abraham Lincoln-Failed many times in life before he became President.
Benjamin Franklin/Thomas Edison-Had many successful inventions, for one successful invention, there were many failed inventions.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Rich, what I'm saying is that kids, regardless of intelligence, do not uniformly give a shit about their grades.  With some exceptions, they mostly do not have a long-term vision of the value of the grades, but to the extent they do try to achieve good grades, they value them mainly for expressions of love and approval they get in return, not because of any objective life value the grades might bring them.

Kids do not see the world as adults see it at all, and school is in a lot of ways life-with-training-wheels, viewing it as do-or-die dog-eat-dog is just as much a recipe disappointment as no-fail.  The no-fail stuff is a somewhat-poorly-thought-through attempt by educators to cope with this, and cram some kind of knowledge into the large percentage of them that are simply not motivated by grades.  I don't think it's a great idea myself, but I can see where they're coming from on it. 

[Eupher]

Rich, what I'm saying is that kids, regardless of intelligence, do not uniformly give a shit about their grades.  With some exceptions, they mostly do not have a long-term vision of the value of the grades, but to the extent they do try to achieve good grades, they value them mainly for expressions of love and approval they get in return, not because of any objective life value the grades might bring them.

Kids do not see the world as adults see it at all, and school is in a lot of ways life-with-training-wheels, viewing it as do-or-die dog-eat-dog is just as much a recipe disappointment as no-fail.  The no-fail stuff is a somewhat-poorly-thought-through attempt by educators to cope with this, and cram some kind of knowledge into the large percentage of them that are simply not motivated by grades.  I don't think it's a great idea myself, but I can see where they're coming from on it. 

A thoughtful response, DAT, and it's a great argument. Can't find fault with it at all, especially for kids even through high school age.

I would think, however, that kids who are technically no longer kids (but emotionally and mentally still are) who are attending institutions of higher learning will undoubtedly run into the do-or-die dog-eat-dog phenomenon there. There's a line drawn in the sand somewhere.

Of school-aged kids, are you advocating creation of a flexible system which is designed to reward kids for performance based on their own reward system? As a school administrator, how do you do that cheaply, yet effectively?

It's probably the same question these guys have been struggling with over the past 150 years and the subject of a bazillion Ph.D. dissertations.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Just based on my personal experience, most of them seem to begin getting a clue about the real world around about age 20.