primitives weigh up the cost of the subway cat, gigantic primitive

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x58108

Oh my.

moez (558 posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 10:48 AM
Original message
 
Weighing up the costs of being obese
 
Obesity is becoming analogous to the smoking debate. So will future carbon taxes place a burden on the overweight?

The fat finger of blame seems to be directed at our ever-increasing meat consumption.

As if being obese didn't already carry enough social stigma. Now, it seems, you're not just killing yourself by being overweight, but you're killing the planet, too.

With more than a passing nod to TV's Life on Mars, a new study published in the International Journal of Epidemiology examines what the UK's energy consumption would be if the average weight of the population was returned to how it was in the 1970s. The study found that due to the increased number of people today who are overweight, the UK consumes 19% more food than it did 40 years ago, which equates to an extra 60 mega tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions a year. It also included the extra transport-related emissions caused by the increased obesity.

...

But for me the most interesting aspect of the study is that it shows how the obesity debate is now starting to be analogous to how the smoking debate ended up playing out. At first, being overweight – like smoking - was labelled as being something that was damaging to just you. The attitude was: if you want to eat or smoke yourself to an early grave then be my guest. But now being overweight is increasingly being seen as a selfish act in which – as with the effects of passive smoking - you are not just having a negative impact on yourself but also those around you, be it through increased healthcare costs (both through overall taxation and rising insurance premiums) or, as is now being claimed, increased environmental costs.

Will this now mean that future carbon taxes and regulations place a disproportionate burden on the overweight and obese? And, by extension, will those who remain underweight benefit from the much-predicted "polluter pays" society where the carbon cost is embedded into everything we do or buy? It's something to chew on.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/ethicallivingblog...

Oh my again.

hedgehog  (1000+ posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:00 AM
Response to Original message

1. I have become convinced that there are four elephants in the room regarding obesity:

1. No one really knows what causes obesity any more than they know what causes leanness. There are the outliers, of course, people who are literally starving and people who are literally eating constantly. However, we are learning more and more every day that gene expression depends on our environment and our parents' environment. So, for example, does my body try to pack on weight because my mother was constantly dieting? She was just trying to fit into the latest fashions, but to her body, it looked as if she was living in a semi-famine. Thus, my genes got the signal to make hay while the sun shines and conserve every calorie available.

If that is the case, continually being hungry is a certain way to ensure that the next generation has a continuous weight problem.

2. Does anyone really know what "healthy weight" is? What's a healthy weight for an ethnic German vs. an ethnic Vietnamese vs. and ethnic Kenyan, for example?

3. Is obesity the real health problem, or is it inactivity, or is it yo-yo dieting, or is it simple carbohydrates?

4. How much is our concern with weight due to health worries and how much is it due to trying to achieve a culturally acceptable body? The Chinese used to cripple women by binding their feet to achieve an acceptable body. Will future generations be aghast at our attempts to look like adolescents our entire lives?

Hmmmm.  One suspects the hedging primitive is no Twiggy.

moez (558 posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
 
3. I agree with much of what you said, but, I do find it difficult to believe that the world's genes/glands/hormones/whatever have changed that much in the last 30 years. It seems to me that we have dived into the fast food, high fat diets that are just too tasty to pass up. That, along with a more sedentary lifestyle from childhood on have all served to fatten us up. I mean, when I was a kid, we were all out playing baseball on a given summer's day. These days, kids are more likely to be huddled in front of an xbox...

I agree that the idea of a "healthy weight" varies from person to person. A 220 pound football player is probably not in the same health crisis as a 220 pound eighth grader that barely moves. However, there probably are healthy and unhealthy body fat percentages.

I don't agree that the concern with weight is primarily due to trying to "achieve a culturally acceptable body". I think that the dangers of obesity are very real and well documented.

Arcana (11 posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
 
5. Yeah, I hate it when people use the "it's not their fault it's their genes" excuse

Sure, maybe on an individual basis a person could be fat due to reasons out of their control, but has that really caused the obesity EPIDEMIC? And they use that as a legitimate excuse for addressing obesity in general.

hedgehog  (1000+ posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
 
8. Take a large group of people who are starving. Give them the opportunity to move some place where they might not starve. Now, allow their children access to plenty of food. Doesn't it make sense that their children's bodies, unaware that the food is likely to always be available, would hoard every calorie and furthermore, arrange to eat every calorie available? What if the people who were starving in Europe all came here?

moez (558 posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
 
10. I had no idea that our obesity epidemic is comprised mainly of starving, first-generation immigrants who are gorging in our supermarkets....

peace13  (1000+ posts)        Mon Apr-20-09 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
 
2. I have a very interesting idea.

Let's give the Americans their rights back, get rid of the "Patriot Act" and hold those who have committed high crimes accountable. Simultaneously let's get health care to all Americans. I bet you will be surprised how much healthier the citizens of this country get. The fact that we are held hostage by politicians who soil the Constitution and bankrupt the citizens directly correlates to the weight gain of our citizens. Worth a try!

moez (558 posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
 
4. I'm all for it...

For that matter, I'm for the government not telling me:

- to wear safety belts in my car
- to wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle
- not to smoke in a privately owned business
- which drugs are too dangerous for me to use

... there's others, but that's a start....

trotsky  (1000+ posts)        Mon Apr-20-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
 
7. Okey dokey.

As soon as the insurance companies (and government, if you are covered by Medicare or Medicaid) don't have to raise MY rates (or taxes) when you go and crash your car or motorcycle and suffer serious injuries, we can stop mandating belts and helmets.

Deal?

Whoa-ho.  franksolich agreesd with the Leon primitive.

moez (558 posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
 
9. It could be regulated fairly simply by the insurance companies having a clause that says that they won't pay if you're not wearing ______ (insert name of protective device here).

At least that way, I'd be able to make my own decision as to whether or not my freedom of choice is worth the potential costs - just like a big boy.

trotsky  (1000+ posts)        Mon Apr-20-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
 
11. So the emergency crew arrives on the scene...finding someone with his head smashed in because he drove his motorcycle into a road sign.

"Hold on, boys. Before you check for vitals or stabilize him or anything, find his insurance card. Yeah, just roll him around to reach his wallet. Don't worry if he's got a broken neck yet. OK, got it? Great. Let me call this 800 number to find out if they will pay. De do do do, de da da da, man I love the Police. Nice choice in hold music. You guys, just hang on, I think I'm next in queue. OK, hello ma'am, yes, we've got this guy on the road near death and wondering if his policy pays even if he wasn't wearing his helmet. Oh, it does? Lucky him! Guys, it's OK, you can start... what's that? Oh, now he's dead? Ah, never mind, ma'am. Looks like you just saved some money!"

Nope, can't think of any problems with your proposed solution.

moez (558 posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
 
12. well at least you're willing to realistically debate it....

I've learned not to waste my breath with sarcastic assholes. They're much too impressed with their own smug, cute answers than actually a discussion of the issues.

lizerdbits  (1000+ posts)        Mon Apr-20-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
 
13. Well lots of people are on waiting lists for organ donations

Some people are just more kind than we are by not wearing seat belts or helmets.

CTyankee  (1000+ posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
 
6. OK, here I go again on America's obesity problem.

When I travel to Europe I don't see obese people. I'm not talking about the UK here, just Italy and Spain where I have travelled every year for 4 years (I'll be adding Portugal to that list come October). Yet they all eat pretty well. And they eat a lot more of the animal than we do (I am still working up my courage to try tripe). I adore eating there and have tried to copy their habits here. Smaller portions mainly. Where did we get the idea that you had to have tons of food on your plate? And they walk after meals. Unfortunately, Spain is full of smokers so that probably keeps some of them thin.

I wish, I wish, I wish that Americans could learn to eat like the Italians and the Spanish. They would enjoy their food so much more AND you get to wash it down with generous amounts of wine (for some reason, there isn't much alcoholism in those countries either).

DU AdBot (1000+ posts)      Mon Apr 20th 2009, 04:12 PM
Response to Original message

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[JohnnyReb]

You know why most Americans.....and by extention the Brits are fat? It's  because of SOCIALISM, you don't have to work anymore to get food, shelter and healthcare......end of story. They eat like field hands and sit on their asses.

[The Village Idiot]

hedgehog  (1000+ posts)      Mon Apr-20-09 11:00 AM
Response to Original message

1. I have become convinced that there are four elephants in the room regarding obesity:

1. No one really knows what causes obesity any more than they know what causes leanness.


Thats 2 ones BTW. I'll just take a stab at this.

Obesity is caused by eating more than you burn off for an extended period of time. The cause of leanness is working off the calories you consume.

BTW- the cause of loneliness is being a DUmmie

[franksolich]

I'm really surprised the gigantic primitive hasn't seen this bonfire yet.

His radar to sense offense must be shut off right now.

[RobJohnson]

peace13  (1000+ posts)        Mon Apr-20-09 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
 
2. I have a very interesting idea.

Let's give the Americans their rights back, get rid of the "Patriot Act" and hold those who have committed high crimes accountable. Simultaneously let's get health care to all Americans. I bet you will be surprised how much healthier the citizens of this country get. The fact that we are held hostage by politicians who soil the Constitution and bankrupt the citizens directly correlates to the weight gain of our citizens. Worth a try!

As soon as we get rid of the Patriot Act everyone will be skinny again! 

[Chris]

As soon as we get rid of the Patriot Act everyone will be skinny again! 

We have to do it to save the planet!  The Patriot Act, global warming... it's all connected...  Fat people cause global warming!!

[jtyangel]

I'm really surprised the gigantic primitive hasn't seen this bonfire yet.

His radar to sense offense must be shut off right now.

Oh, it's building, frank. I sense yet another opus of sorts in his future about all the insensitivity around him at DU. It's coming. Just wait.



I do believe in a biological 'kill switch' if you will, but it usually happens once someone has already lost a great deal of weight and is reaching into the more normal weight levels for their height or has reduced their body fat substantially. I don't think an obses person, barring any serious(and rare) metabolic disorders, has to worry about that killswitch going off while they are obese. Their body is in no danger of starving with the fat stores and it takes more then a few days of reasonable caloric restriction for the body to adjust and 'worry' about the food supply. As an example, I've never seen a person who was overweight go on Survivor and not lose weight when their access to food was restricted and they had to be active in order to survive. I bet even a few of those people before would have considered themselves resistant to weight loss too before something like that. What I've found the more I've delved into fitness and health issues is that people often don't know what they are taking in and what they are expending and they aren't honest with themselves about it--it's easy to overlook cream and sugar in coffee or the nibble of the work potluck over the course of a day as actual meals, but often times their fat and calorie content add up to just that. Think of the shows recently with morbidly obese people who were presented withwhat they ate in a day and how that was 4-7 days worth of 'normal' eating and how surprised they were that they ate that much.

Sorry, off of the soapbox. I can accept that someone is just not ready to put in the time and effort to move the scale down a bit or they just really love eating that much--hell, I do too--food is good:-D. I get that. It's hard stuff and we have lots of other obligations pulling us, but to say it can't be done is just hogwash.

[RobJohnson]

We have to do it to save the planet!  The Patriot Act, global warming... it's all connected...  Fat people cause global warming!!

HA! Good article, they need to post that at the DUmp. 

[Chris]

HA! Good article, they need to post that at the DUmp. 

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,27794.0.html 

[RobJohnson]

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,27794.0.html 

I remember seeing that now. 

I am watching The Biggest Loser, the irony!

[jtyangel]

I remember seeing that now. 

I am watching The Biggest Loser, the irony!

I find some of that inspirational, but one of the instructors at my gym was talking about how she saw 'form' issues with some of the exercises.