House sets up vote today on taxing AIG bonuses

[ReardenSteel]

I agree with stop the bailouts (they never should have occurred) and cut the spending.  So how do you suggest we kill the corruption in Congress who receive kickbacks and campaign contributions which in turn demand special treatment.  There is another revolving door.  Washington is made up of revolving doors.  I am all for term limits.  I recognize lobbyists have a place but who is lobbying for us?  What do you mean when you say stop throwing chum in the water and they will starve to death and who are you referring to? 

Refering to the "pull peddlers", meaning the end of our "mixed economy". (part capitalist, part socialist) I suggest the answer is to make the governments job the protection of individual rights and only individual rights. (life, liberty, property) In other words total Laissez-faire capitalism.

If parasitism, favoritism, corruption, and greed for the unearned did not exist, a mixed economy would bring them into existence.

 â€œThe Pull Peddlers,” Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 170

Corruption thrives because there is literally no possibility of justice, fairness or morality in a mixed economy. Who qualifies for a bailout and why? Which science projects get funded this year? Which art projects? Which "public" spaces can you smoke in? What constitutes a proper education? (you could ask a hundred questions of your own in this line) To make all the right calls, all the time, Congress would have to be filled with omnipotent geniuses. Even term limits can't do that. Only a free market can allow us all to be our best.

I believe in separation of church and State because they tend to corrupt eachother. We have separation of church and State and just look at the multitude of faith and non-faiths even living side by side and in peace like no where else on Earth. I believe in separation of State and economy too. And for the same reason.


/sry, end rant 

[Black Swan]

No need to be sorry.  I enjoyed your rant and the information.  I saved the link.  I have not read any Ayn Rand but on the surface I agree with what you stated.  If we could only move in that direction.  I will have to pick up Atlas Shrugged.  Man, my reading stack gets higher. 

[djones520]

Hi,

What an outrage!  Those bonuses were EARNED, why the hell aren't the republicans screaming bloody murder.

regards,
5412

I wouldn't say they where "earned" but they where legally obtained.  Congress is going way out of line on this.

[ReardenSteel]

No need to be sorry.  I enjoyed your rant and the information.  I saved the link.  I have not read any Ayn Rand but on the surface I agree with what you stated.  If we could only move in that direction.  I will have to pick up Atlas Shrugged.  Man, my reading stack gets higher. 

Atlas Shrugged is a great read and one of my all time favorites. (but man she is a wordy bitch, lol) Anyway, I can vouch for the fact that it is worth it as someone who has read it four times. Along with everything else she wrote including non-fiction at least once. I would not presume to recomend anything else until one has read AS.

I'm a pretty mild mannered dude but there are a handful of issues that get my dander up. Nationwide attacks on capitalism and Elian Gonzales to name just two. (those things make me see red, lol)

A great intro into Atlas Shrugged would be "Francisco's Money Speech" but that is the last I will say about that. I fear I'm thread jacking and have too much beer and basketball in me to go further. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the ride once you take the plunge.

[Crazy Horse]

I wouldn't say they where "earned" but they where legally obtained.  Congress is going way out of line on this.

Why are they unearned..............AIG is a large company with many different divisions.  Some were making profits others were losing them.  Also these are all retention bonuses for executives because the dumbasses in DC capped their pay many years ago, and bonuses/stock options are part of their salary to get get the best and brightest(so they hope).

aig SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROKEN UP INSTEAD OF BEING BAILED OUT

[djones520]

From everything I've heard, the majority of these bonuses went to the divisions that tanked.  But I may be wrong.  *shrugs*

[Duke Nukum]

From everything I've heard, the majority of these bonuses went to the divisions that tanked.  But I may be wrong.  *shrugs*

Yeah, okay, is there something you are implying or otherwise wish convey to the reader of your post?

[djones520]

Yeah, okay, is there something you are implying or otherwise wish convey to the reader of your post?

I was replying to CH, who had posted before me.

[Hawkgirl]

Yeah, okay, is there something you are implying or otherwise wish convey to the reader of your post?

Duke, so you think that taxpayers should foot the bill that the COMPANY promised??  Because we now own 80% of AIG and the company is not paying their "retention" bonuses, we are...thanks to this "non-stimulus" package "we the people" had no choice on.

[ReardenSteel]

From everything I've heard, the majority of these bonuses went to the divisions that tanked.  But I may be wrong.  *shrugs*

That may very well be true (and I don't know those facts either) but I think it is kind of not the point.

What I mean is, what government moves may have harmed a given divison? How much more would failing divisions have lost if not for good management? What have some individuals done to keep things from being worse than they were?

The point is, it's not the governments call. Even Adam Smith understood there was the "seen" and "unseen" in a free market. (so a rising tide lifts all boats) The problem is that destroyed weath is invisable and thus imesurable. The big problem is that we don't play in the "free market". The government is picking winners and losers. (and with no wisdom to make the right choice other than, "how do I look?" and "what are the political consequences?")

[ReardenSteel]

Duke, so you think that taxpayers should foot the bill that the COMPANY promised??  Because we now own 80% of AIG and the company is not paying their "retention" bonuses, we are...thanks to this "non-stimulus" package "we the people" had no choice on.

I would say, "yea" we have to pay. Not because it's right or remotely just, but because it's the law. That shit was in the bill that Obama signed into law.

"Freedom is it's own punishment" 

Next time lets pick a better POTUS and Congress. (Con-gress being the opposite of Progress) *sigh*

[Hawkgirl]

The government is picking winners and losers.

That's it in a nutshell...and notice the "winners" are those that gave charitable contributions to a certain POS's presidential campaign.

[djones520]

That may very well be true (and I don't know those facts either) but I think it is kind of not the point.

What I mean is, what government moves may have harmed a given divison? How much more would failing divisions have lost if not for good management? What have some individuals done to keep things from being worse than they were?

The point is, it's not the governments call. Even Adam Smith understood there was the "seen" and "unseen" in a free market. (so a rising tide lifts all boats) The problem is that destroyed weath is invisable and thus imesurable. The big problem is that we don't play in the "free market". The government is picking winners and losers. (and with no wisdom to make the right choice other than, "how do I look?" and "what are the political consequences?")

I wholeheartedly agree.  I was just saying that the bonuses may not have been truly "earned".  Whether or not they where though, the government should not be doing what it is.

[ReardenSteel]

I wholeheartedly agree.  I was just saying that the bonuses may not have been truly "earned".  Whether or not they where though, the government should not be doing what it is.

Right on! (I don't know either)

Drunk March madness high fibe lol

[ReardenSteel]

That's it in a nutshell...and notice the "winners" are those that gave charitable contributions to a certain POS's presidential campaign.

Right on!

When Black Swan and I were talking about corruption I said "Corruption thrives because there is literally no possibility of justice, fairness or morality in a mixed economy." I meant the government was picking winners and losers as they must in a "mixed economy".

high "fibe" for you too. 


Are we all having a heated agreement? 

[Duke Nukum]

Duke, so you think that taxpayers should foot the bill that the COMPANY promised??  Because we now own 80% of AIG and the company is not paying their "retention" bonuses, we are...thanks to this "non-stimulus" package "we the people" had no choice on.

I don't think tax payers should have bailed out AIG in the first place but once that happened the company has to run itself.  If the company has contractual obligations they have to be met otherwise what is the point of a contract?

Since the government took over 80% of AIG maybe Frank, Dodd, Et Al. should be running the company instead of being on the floor of the house and senate acting shocked.

Congress itself put in the legislation to protect AIG's bonuses and now they are acting shocked.

I am more upset about the 7 trillion in wealth that has been pissed away by the government than a few million a company the government bailed out was contractually obligated to pay and I am way more concerned about this over-reaching of the congress to punish private citizens with the full force of government.

This whole thing with these bonuses seems more like envy to me than the actual problem which the problem is AIG was bailed out in the first place, since we can't go back and fix that, then we have to move forward, if that means bonuses have to be paid then that is what that means.

[Duke Nukum]

I was replying to CH, who had posted before me.

Thanks, it is very difficult to tell who is replying to who without using the quote feature.

[Hawkgirl]

Are we all having a heated agreement? 

Yes, I suppose we are in-fighting...

[Black Swan]

Duke, I think you are right on all counts.  I also think that what people are pissed about is NOT necessarily bonuses but the bailout in general.  MSM has ginned up the bonuses but the tea parties were going on before this occurred.  In one sense, it might have helped as it may get more people out and about regarding the spending that is going on out-of-control in Washington.  

I think Hawkgirl is correct in that the bonuses were predominately paid to the complex instrument unit (toxic assets) and if I am not mistaken also to foreign workers (seems to me in London).   Still, since it was in the Porkulus Bill to pay the bonuses they should be paid.  I want to know what they are gonna do with the toxic assets that keep sucking the funds.  Oh, never mind FASB/SEC will change mark-to-market to mark-to-magic and that will solve it.  

[Hawkgirl]

I don't think tax payers should have bailed out AIG in the first place but once that happened the company has to run itself.  If the company has contractual obligations they have to be met otherwise what is the point of a contract?

Since the government took over 80% of AIG maybe Frank, Dodd, Et Al. should be running the company instead of being on the floor of the house and senate acting shocked.

Congress itself put in the legislation to protect AIG's bonuses and now they are acting shocked.

I am more upset about the 7 trillion in wealth that has been pissed away by the government than a few million a company the government bailed out was contractually obligated to pay and I am way more concerned about this over-reaching of the congress to punish private citizens with the full force of government.

This whole thing with these bonuses seems more like envy to me than the actual problem which the problem is AIG was bailed out in the first place, since we can't go back and fix that, then we have to move forward, if that means bonuses have to be paid then that is what that means.

You made good points....but doesn't mean I have to LIKE it....
The incompetent government/congress should have let AIG file Chapter 11. Yes, perhaps this is displaced anger..perhaps these executives, however incompetent they were, should receive their million dollar bonuses.  Congress is creating a loophole to retrieve their money.
It's like a war of crooks.

[Duke Nukum]

Duke, I think you are right on all counts.  I also think that what people are pissed about is NOT necessarily bonuses but the bailout in general.  MSM has ginned up the bonuses but the tea parties were going on before this occurred.  In one sense, it might have helped as it may get more people out and about regarding the spending that is going on out-of-control in Washington.  

I think Hawkgirl is correct in that the bonuses were predominately paid to the complex instrument unit (toxic assets) and if I am not mistaken also to foreign workers (seems to me in London).   Still, since it was in the Porkulus Bill to pay the bonuses they should be paid.  I want to know what they are gonna do with the toxic assets that keep sucking the funds.  Oh, never mind FASB/SEC will change mark-to-market to mark-to-magic and that will solve it.  

You know, why they didn't change mark-to-market months ago is a huge mystery.  

[ReardenSteel]

Yes, I suppose we are in-fighting...

I'd be all over that comment but I'm too tipsy to have a clever response. 

Se la vie

Thank you EVERYONE for being as outraged as me on this topic.

I think we all agree that preventative medicine in this case would be not to get involved in the first place.

[Hawkgirl]

.

I think we all agree that preventative medicine in this case would be not to get involved in the first place.

Thanks to the transfer of power the Do-Nothing Congress has become the Do the Most Damage Congress.
I liked the former better.

[Black Swan]

You know, why they didn't change mark-to-market months ago is a huge mystery.  

Maybe Hawkgirl is right.  Wouldn't it give them greater loses every quarter thus more money from the taxpayer?

[Duke Nukum]

You made good points....but doesn't mean I have to LIKE it....
The incompetent government/congress should have let AIG file Chapter 11. Yes, perhaps this is displaced anger..perhaps these executives, however incompetent they were, should receive their million dollar bonuses.  Congress is creating a loophole to retrieve their money.
It's like a war of crooks.

Yep, I don't like it either but that is the way it is and I see this AIG bonus thing as a side show.  While people are getting angry and raging about a few million paid to private citizens, nobody is looking at the 7 trillion being stolen by elected officials.

It would like going to a doctor for a hangnail when there is a giant tumor growing out of my forehead.