We have already reached the point of No Return.

[rich_t]

I saw a post this evening that asked if we as a nation have reached the point of no return.

5412 posted a very excellent link:

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

It is my opinion that we stopped being a Republic, in fact if not by name, several decades ago.

This downward spiral perhaps began as early as the early 1900's

Do any of you seriously doubt that the United States is NOT now an Oligarchy, if not ruled by a few, at least highly controlled by a few?

Or have we drifted into a more "Democracy Mode"?

A debate can be made for either, but my personal opinion leads more toward Democracy.

No Democracy has stood the test of time.  We have a rather long world history that proves this.

The United States as our Founding Father's envisioned it, is a thing of the past. IMO.

The persistent growth and power of the Federal Government, combined with the reductions of freedoms for the sovereign US Citizen in recent decades prove this to me.

We unfortunately have already rounded that corner. [Point of no return]  A review of World History is on my side here.

In a democracy, people will vote in their own self-interest and not in the interest of the Nation. 

We are already here.  In Nov 2008 the US Nation voted in an unapologetic socialist to be their leader.

Does that mean we should stop fighting?

Hell no.  I will fight for the Republic as long as I still have a beating heart in my chest.

But the deck is stacked against us, and history, if it is any guide at all, shows that we will most likely lose.

On the positive front, history also indicated that the colonies would have lost our war of Independence too.

So I am not without hope.

I remain a realist.

[Rebel]

IMO, pretty much every president since TR has ushered in his own version of Socialism. "Maybe" with the exception of Reagan, but that's debatable.

[rich_t]

IMO, pretty much every president since TR has ushered in his own version of Socialism. "Maybe" with the exception of Reagan, but that's debatable.

I'll ask you point blank...

In your opinion have we, as a nation, already passed that point of no return?

[Rebel]

I'll ask you point blank...

In your opinion have we, as a nation, already passed that point of no return?

Yes.

[rich_t]

Yes.

Thank you for the response.  Short and to the point, which was exactly what I wanted when I asked the question.

I didn't start paying much attention to politics until about 15-16 years ago.  But once I did, I started doing as much research as I could.  Especially in historical accounts of what lead to the down fall of other civilizations/nations. (Greek, Roman, USSR etc.)  The link that 5412 posted sums it up rather nicely IMO.

What I found out concerned me greatly.  I began to see similarities between these failed civilizations and what has been taking place in the US in recent decades.

There is a reason why my gun/ammo collection is worth more than my 401k (I was investing more in one than the other; based on the current stock market, I made a smart choice, firearms rarely go down in value). 

I began to see the proverbial writing on the walls.  I began to take steps to prepare for the storm that is coming.

Socialism has been slowly creeping into the US for many decades.  It seems to me that it has accelerated greatly in the last 30-40 years. 

I don't kid myself...  The US will someday soon formally become a Socialist state in one form or other.  It's going to happen; it's only a matter of when.  No socialist state has stood the test of time.  So there will be revolution; history proves this.

I have done what I can to make sure I survive it.

Frankly, I am rather surprised that there weren't more responses to this thread.  Too gloomy perhaps?

[Rebel]

Even though we're a Republic, not a Democracy, ...though every dumb f'n moron THINKS we're a Democracy, ever heard of the saying, "A democracy can only exist until the people find a way to vote themselves the treasury"?

We're there. We won't make it to 250 years.

I hope I'm proven wrong. I won't lay any money on it.

[rich_t]

Even though we're a Republic, not a Democracy, ...though every dumb f'n moron THINKS we're a Democracy, ever heard of the saying, "A democracy can only exist until the people find a way to vote themselves the treasury"?

We're there. We won't make it to 250 years.

I hope I'm proven wrong. I won't lay any money on it.

That hits squarely on the point of my OP.

We are indeed a Republic by name and by charter.  But haven't we, as a nation, in fact become a democracy in action in recent decades?

Have we, as a nation, NOT started to vote ourselves the treasury?  Are people NOT voting for whomever promises them the most (free healthcare etc.)?

I am not trying to be all doom and gloom here.

I am merely trying to be realistic about the national situation as it actually exists today.

[Rebel]

We stopped being a Republic with the invasion of the south by the north. Even after that, when the 17th amendment was passed which removed, essentially, all state sovereignty.

[Rebel]

....and let me, probably only me, be honest, we lost our rabid-assed minds after the 19th Amendment was passed. Don't get me wrong, I love my female cavers, but women are emotional creatures. Men are, generally, logical thinkers. This isn't a slam on them, it's part of biology. It goes back the the nurturer/hunter argument.

[rich_t]

We stopped being a Republic with the invasion of the south by the north. Even after that, when the 17th amendment was passed which removed, essentially, all state sovereignty.

I'm not going to debate the War of Northern Agression with you.  But I do think that the 17th Amendment was a step in the wrong direction for this Republic.

<on edit>

I'll lock this thread in a heart beat if it starts to become a discussion of that war.

[rich_t]

....and let me, probably only me, be honest, we lost our rabid-assed minds after the 19th Amendment was passed. Don't get me wrong, I love my female cavers, but women are emotional creatures. Men are, generally, logical thinkers. This isn't a slam on them, it's part of biology. It goes back the the nurturer/hunter argument.

Damn...  You do know how to open a can of worms doncha?

[Rebel]

Damn...  You do know how to open a can of worms doncha?

Women are geared towards security. Men are geared towards freedom. Which of those do you think would fit well under Communism?

[5412]

Hi,

I still hold out hope......but it will take some doing.  Here is why!

There is a tired old story about taking a frog and putting it into boiling water.  It will jump out, burned, scarred and plenty pissed off.  On the other hand, if you put the frog in room temperature water and I have been told, increase the water temperature about 2 degrees per hour it will boil to death.  Moral of the so called story is it is not change that effects people but rate of change.....

Using your figure of 1900, for over a century we have been slowly changing, trending toward socialism until it is staring us in the face.  Now along come BO.  In my opinion he has turned up the burner pretty quickly and is boiling the frog (to use the analogy) and folks are getting mighty pissed off.  That fact can cause revolution.  Dick Morris predicts a massive shift toward conservatism as a result of BO's spending.  He pointed out that his approval ratings are dropping and he does not care because he is hell-bent on his agenda......redistribution.

What I see is a winner take all, we either go over the edge and head toward communism......or a massive shift back toward some common sense.  In 1994 when the republicans swept the congressional elections, had it been a presidential election as well, I think Gingrich could have pulled it off.  If he had kept his fly zipped he would be a force today and a likely presidential candidate.  If the right conservative leader emerges, with a powerful message the trend can be reversed quickly.  I look at it like changing the direction of a 500 car train, it can be done but it takes a lot of effort and a bit of time, but it can be done.

Let's hope so!  In the meantime each and every one of us needs to be screaming at our elected officials almost daily to slow down the BO express before it is too late.

Next week they are having the health care conference.  What a waste!  We all know what is coming and the public damn sure better start raising hell.  Any of you old enough to be a member of AARP you better be all over them to get off their ass and start representing seniors or our health care will be decided on a "cost effectiveness" basis which means rationing health care for the elderly.

Not sure who the leader will be.  It might just take another terrorist attack on our soil to cement the right leader but we should embrace the revolution, that is the only way we can come back from the no return abyss.....

regards,
5412

[Rebel]

BTW, it's a generalization, but one backed up by science. If I had my way, I'd just prohibit all liberals from voting. Conservatives, men OR women, game.

[rich_t]

Women are geared towards security. Men are geared towards freedom. Which of those do you think would fit well under Communism?

Real security exists under communism?   

I get the point you are making.

[Rebel]

Real security exists under communism?   

I get the point you are making.

Cool, now sit back and watch my bitchslap meter go around like a speedometer. 

[rich_t]

Hi,

I still hold out hope......but it will take some doing.  Here is why!

There is a tired old story about taking a frog and putting it into boiling water.  It will jump out, burned, scarred and plenty pissed off.  On the other hand, if you put the frog in room temperature water and I have been told, increase the water temperature about 2 degrees per hour it will boil to death.  Moral of the so called story is it is not change that effects people but rate of change.....

Using your figure of 1900, for over a century we have been slowly changing, trending toward socialism until it is staring us in the face.  Now along come BO.  In my opinion he has turned up the burner pretty quickly and is boiling the frog (to use the analogy) and folks are getting mighty pissed off.  That fact can cause revolution.  Dick Morris predicts a massive shift toward conservatism as a result of BO's spending.  He pointed out that his approval ratings are dropping and he does not care because he is hell-bent on his agenda......redistribution.

What I see is a winner take all, we either go over the edge and head toward communism......or a massive shift back toward some common sense.  In 1994 when the republicans swept the congressional elections, had it been a presidential election as well, I think Gingrich could have pulled it off.  If he had kept his fly zipped he would be a force today and a likely presidential candidate.  If the right conservative leader emerges, with a powerful message the trend can be reversed quickly.  I look at it like changing the direction of a 500 car train, it can be done but it takes a lot of effort and a bit of time, but it can be done.

Let's hope so!  In the meantime each and every one of us needs to be screaming at our elected officials almost daily to slow down the BO express before it is too late.

Next week they are having the health care conference.  What a waste!  We all know what is coming and the public damn sure better start raising hell.  Any of you old enough to be a member of AARP you better be all over them to get off their ass and start representing seniors or our health care will be decided on a "cost effectiveness" basis which means rationing health care for the elderly.

Not sure who the leader will be.  It might just take another terrorist attack on our soil to cement the right leader but we should embrace the revolution, that is the only way we can come back from the no return abyss.....

regards,
5412

I am glad you chimed in.  I was hoping that you would.  I like your style.

Your frog analogy is quite apt.  That frog has been getting slowly warmed up for decades.  I hope you are correct in your assessment that OB turning up the heat so quickly will cause that frog to jump out of the pot.

But history shows that the frogs will gladly boil, while thinking they are getting the best deal out of the bargin.

I hope you are correct that the sudden increase of heat will make them jump.

[Attero Dominatus]

Yes I agree that we are past the point of no return. Things have been set in motion for far too long to realistically undo; too many Americans have been brainwashed into wanting the false sense of security offered by collectivism instead of the responsibility that comes with freedom.

[5412]

Hi,

Thanks for the kind words.  I am particularly concerned about health care for seniors....as I are one!

JUST HOW INSANE IS THIS? 

Daschle wants to slow the cost of development of new drugs as it is too expensive. Perhaps if he had his way we would still have polio, diptheria, smallpox,tuberculosis, because the drugs were yet to be developed??

OR HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?

He wants to ration care for seniors besed on cost effectiveness, yet we are the only country in the world that treats illegals for nothing....and don't send them home.  When people who are in this country illegally get priority over seniors who have fought to defend this country something is really very, very wrong.  Lord I wish the AARP would get off it's ass along with several million Americans and start raising hell before it is past the point of no return.

regards,
5412

[Attero Dominatus]

OR HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?

He wants to ration care for seniors besed on cost effectiveness, yet we are the only country in the world that treats illegals for nothing....and don't send them home.  When people who are in this country illegally get priority over seniors who have fought to defend this country something is really very, very wrong.  Lord I wish the AARP would get off it's ass along with several million Americans and start raising hell before it is past the point of no return.

regards,
5412

Dasshole does not just want to ration care for seniors. He sees the old and terminally ill as 'useless eaters' who should be left to die.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/8345

[BlueStateSaint]

Dasshole does not just want to ration care for seniors. He sees the old and terminally ill as 'useless eaters' who should be left to die.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/8345

Excepting himself, of course.

I also like 5412's analogy that BHO has upped the heat a tad too much.  The Dems in the Senate are carping about the limits that his budget would put on charitable giving.  Never thought I'd see that.

I've also seen stuff pointing to this summer being a "summer of Hell" across the world.  Even in the US.  Garden, gold, grub, guns, and God.

[5412]

HI,

I am hearing things like he wants to add $1.50 a gallon tax on gasoline.  I am hearing things like he wants soldiers to swear loyalty to the president because they are out of touch with the Constitution....like Heil Hitler, I guess.

I told my wife I hope it is true and that he starts pushing for it and gas, in particular goes to $6.00/gallon. 

Sounds dumb maybe but the more he heats up the water and boils the frog, the bigger the backlash.

My guess is he feels that he has two years to get it all done because history says he will lose control in mid-term elections.  You know I realize as i am typing this that I am sounding like a democrat, I want the country to experience the summer of hell in order for us to be able to get into a position to get the ship where it needs to be.

HEY BO BOIL AWAY.....

regards,
5412

[Attero Dominatus]

I think you are right about him trying to get as much of his agenda done before 2010 as possible. Unfortunately things will get worse before they get better.

I would love to see a 1994-style Republican Revolution, but I will believe it when I see it.

[rich_t]

Hi,

Thanks for the kind words.  I am particularly concerned about health care for seniors....as I are one!

JUST HOW INSANE IS THIS? 

Daschle wants to slow the cost of development of new drugs as it is too expensive. Perhaps if he had his way we would still have polio, diptheria, smallpox,tuberculosis, because the drugs were yet to be developed??

OR HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?

He wants to ration care for seniors besed on cost effectiveness, yet we are the only country in the world that treats illegals for nothing....and don't send them home.  When people who are in this country illegally get priority over seniors who have fought to defend this country something is really very, very wrong.  Lord I wish the AARP would get off it's ass along with several million Americans and start raising hell before it is past the point of no return.

regards,
5412

The US government has no business injecting itself into the health care industry.  Period.   This country survived just fine and medical advancement had flourished for over 200 years despite of, not because of, government meddling.

I think that medicare and medicaid were and continue to be a mistake.  Just look at the shear inefficiency in the way these programs are run.

These are nothing more than the US government exceeding it's Constitutional authority.

This does not mean that I am cold hearted or lack compassion for the elderly that are currently dependant on these programs.  But I do think these programs are geared to ensure as much dependancy as possible on the Goverment. 

Nationalized healthcare???  Yeah... Just look at how well it has failed in countries that actually have it.

[Rebel]

I would love to see a 1994-style Republican Revolution, but I will believe it when I see it.

I'd rather see a 1776 revolution. I'm tired of Socialism and it's been ushered in by every politician since TR in some form or fashion, maybe with the exception of Reagan.